237 replies to this topic

[Corrado]

like someonelse suggested before, i'd like to have the flexibility to mix SHS and DHS on the same mech. and for balance, lowering clan DHS heat cap by a tiny bit (like -10% for this -30% pod space they actually have).

then lower nerf a bit IS laser heatgen quirks.

Edited by Corrado, 07 August 2015 - 02:08 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Corrado, on 07 August 2015 - 02:08 AM, said:

like someonelse suggested before, i'd like to have the flexibility to mix SHS and DHS on the same mech. and for balance, lowering clan DHS heat cap by a tiny bit (like -10% for this -30% pod space they actually have).

then lower nerf a bit IS laser heatgen quirks.

Mixing tech gets complex. if we allow mixed sinks then the argument can be opened up for Mixing Armor.

And trust me that is a serious can of worms!

[Corrado]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 02:10 AM, said:

Mixing tech gets complex. if we allow mixed sinks then the argument can be opened up for Mixing Armor.

And trust me that is a serious can of worms!

we can already mix weapons, modules, omnipods... would hurt the game that much to mix heatsinks?

about mixing, usually in MWO, boating > mixing... so...

Edited by Corrado, 07 August 2015 - 02:34 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Corrado, on 07 August 2015 - 02:34 AM, said:

we can already mix weapons, modules, omnipods... would hurt the game that much to mix heatsinks?

about mixing, usually in MWO, boating > mixing... so...

You cannot mix anything more than is allowed on TT. Except on TT Omnis didn't have to contend with Hard Point restrictions.

Mixed tech isn't allowed. Mixing Sinks is only allowed at specific levels of game play. And is avoided by most.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 02:38 AM, said:

Mixed tech isn't allowed. Mixing Sinks is only allowed at specific levels of game play. And is avoided by most.

Mixed tech is within TT, mixing sinks is not AFAIK.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 07 August 2015 - 03:22 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

WM Quicksilver, on 07 August 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

Mixed tech is within TT, mixing sinks is not AFAIK.

It is. It was given substance in the 3028 TRO.

[Sjorpha]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 August 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

I still think treating all engine heat sinks as truedubs regardless of whether you have SHS or DHS installed would go along way into making it a serious consideration rather than a tax. It's simple and still makes it so that SHS are used when your mech has more tonnage than crit space.

This is my prefered solution as well, the best suggestion I've heard so far.

[Joseph Mallan]

WM Quicksilver, on 05 August 2015 - 01:54 PM, said:

I still think treating all engine heat sinks as truedubs regardless of whether you have SHS or DHS installed would go along way into making it a serious consideration rather than a tax. It's simple and still makes it so that SHS are used when your mech has more tonnage than crit space.

Dude. No! Dubs are twice as good as Singles. Its in the name! Starting in 3055 more Mechs will have dubs than singles. and the point will be moot!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 August 2015 - 03:29 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 03:28 AM, said:

Dude. No! Dubs are twice as good as Singles. Its in the name! Starting in 3055 more Mechs will have dubs than singles. and the point will be moot!

We aren't in 3055 and there are still 100+ mechs that start with SHS. Simply keeping a piece of equipment as worthless because of nomenclature is a bit silly, especially when so many new players stick with SHS not knowing how much better DHS are. Why have so many mechs start with SHS if they are so bad if not to trick people into thinking they actually have some use because this is a PvP game, not PvE or campaign oriented.

A good way to avoid nomenclature issues would be for them to rename DHS to something like XL Heat Sinks since that is essentially what they are in this game, it fits with the other upgrades as well.

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 03:23 AM, said:

It is. It was given substance in the 3028 TRO.

There is no TRO:3028...at least that is recognized officially from what I can tell.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 07 August 2015 - 03:36 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

WM Quicksilver, on 07 August 2015 - 03:34 AM, said:

We aren't in 3055 and there are still 100+ mechs that start with SHS. Simply keeping a piece of equipment as worthless because of nomenclature is a bit silly, especially when so many new players stick with SHS not knowing how much better DHS are. Why have so many mechs start with SHS if they are so bad if not to trick people into thinking they actually have some use because this is a PvP game, not PvE or campaign oriented.

A good way to avoid nomenclature issues would be for them to rename DHS to something like XL Heat Sinks since that is essentially what they are in this game, it fits with the other upgrades as well.




There is no TRO:3028...

did I type 28... TRO3039! Just getting old and tired.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 07 August 2015 - 03:40 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 03:28 AM, said:

Dude. No! Dubs are twice as good as Singles. Its in the name! Starting in 3055 more Mechs will have dubs than singles. and the point will be moot!

That wouldn't change the fact that SHS are useless in any optimized build. There should be no useless options in multiplayer games, simple as that.

SHS vs DHS could and should have the same kind of intertesting tradeoff that standard vs XL engine has, where one is better for some builds and the other is better for some. That is how you create more diversity of builds, by making the build process include as many genuinely difficult choices as possible.

Or if you aren't prepared to give SHS a real practical purpose in the game you could just remove them entirely, right now they are purely meaningless ballast that does nothing except cluttering up the game without being real content.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sjorpha, on 07 August 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

That wouldn't change the fact that SHS are useless in any optimized build. There should be no useless options in multiplayer games, simple as that.

SHS vs DHS could and should have the same kind of intertesting tradeoff that standard vs XL engine has, where one is better for some builds and the other is better for some. That is how you create more diversity of builds, by making the build process include as many genuinely difficult choices as possible.

Or if you aren't prepared to give SHS a real practical purpose in the game you could just remove them entirely, right now they are purely meaningless ballast that does nothing except cluttering up the game without being real content.

Well after the 3055 they basically are. But we are here and we don't need to have everything usable. The reason for them is cost. If you don't have the money for dubs then you use singles till you do.

[Hotthedd]

Pjwned, on 06 August 2015 - 10:13 PM, said:

Why does the game need progression, especially when you can instead make both upgrades be viable options by buffing the one that's never used ever unless you literally cannot afford the superior choice?

Because WITHOUT progression, what is the point? Then it is just masturbation.

They are NOT both upgrades, DHS is an upgrade. Upgrades are the carrot that incentivizes play. There is a place for sidegrades, but there is a need for straight upgrades as well.

[Pjwned]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 06:11 AM, said:

Because WITHOUT progression, what is the point? Then it is just masturbation.

They are NOT both upgrades, DHS is an upgrade. Upgrades are the carrot that incentivizes play. There is a place for sidegrades, but there is a need for straight upgrades as well.

If that's the case why don't we just make Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, and Artemis IV take up no crit slots (and in the case of Artemis no tonnage) because that makes them REAL UPGRADES!!!

Go play some Korean MMORPG grindfest if you need a carrot on a stick at all times, I hear Nexon has plenty of that stuff or there's other non-Nexon games like Elsword, TERA, Skyforge, etc.

[Hotthedd]

Pjwned, on 07 August 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

If that's the case why don't we just make Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, and Artemis IV take up no crit slots (and in the case of Artemis no tonnage) because that makes them REAL UPGRADES!!!

Go play some Korean MMORPG grindfest if you need a carrot on a stick at all times, I hear Nexon has plenty of that stuff or there's other non-Nexon games like Elsword, TERA, Skyforge, etc.

Or how about YOU go play Call of Duty if that is what you like so much? This is a BattleTech based game, and many of us funded MW:O for that very reason.

[Joseph Mallan]

Hotthedd, on 07 August 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Or how about YOU go play Call of Duty if that is what you like so much? This is a BattleTech based game, and many of us funded MW:O for that very reason.

This is why I am here. And the reason I stay.

[Lugh]

Sjorpha, on 07 August 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

That wouldn't change the fact that SHS are useless in any optimized build. There should be no useless options in multiplayer games, simple as that.

SHS vs DHS could and should have the same kind of intertesting tradeoff that standard vs XL engine has, where one is better for some builds and the other is better for some. That is how you create more diversity of builds, by making the build process include as many genuinely difficult choices as possible.

Or if you aren't prepared to give SHS a real practical purpose in the game you could just remove them entirely, right now they are purely meaningless ballast that does nothing except cluttering up the game without being real content.

And yet IN EVERY SINGLE MULTIPLAYER GAME EVER, there exist "Useless options".

And in every single one that I played I could and did play the 'useless option' and beat the OP option of the same class more often than not.

Most people want to be able to face roll the keyboard and win. It hurts when they have to think outside there proscribed pattern.

Those people Almost always lose to people that can think outside their tiny box.

[Roadkill]

Lugh, on 07 August 2015 - 08:21 AM, said:

And in every single one that I played I could and did play the 'useless option' and beat the OP option of the same class more often than not.

I think everyone here would be happy to throw down with you any time you want if you are restricted to SHS while we get to use DHS.

What you say may be true in other games, but SHS in MWO are not just bad. They're terrible, and there are very few builds that can even reach mediocrity using SHS. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 builds that are good. Not great, but at least good enough to win in the PUG queue.

For all intents and purposes, DHS are a required upgrade if you want to have a chance. New players in particular need DHS... but can't afford them. It's a terrible NPE.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 07 August 2015 - 08:39 AM, said:

I think everyone here would be happy to throw down with you any time you want if you are restricted to SHS while we get to use DHS.

What you say may be true in other games, but SHS in MWO are not just bad. They're terrible, and there are very few builds that can even reach mediocrity using SHS. Off the top of my head I can only think of 2 builds that are good. Not great, but at least good enough to win in the PUG queue.

For all intents and purposes, DHS are a required upgrade if you want to have a chance. New players in particular need DHS... but can't afford them. It's a terrible NPE.

dubs only require a short grind to earn. 1.5 Mill is not a huge amount. And less and less Mechs will come with singles as we move on. So problem is not a real problem.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

dubs only require a short grind to earn. 1.5 Mill is not a huge amount. And less and less Mechs will come with singles as we move on. So problem is not a real problem.

It is a real problem for new players.

Going from DHS trials to SHS new mechs, they have no idea what's going on.



Normalizing engine heatsinks still ***** the sub 250 engines, but at least it helps the new players not get absolutely curb stomped by heat.


Upgrade to DHS is still a straight up upgrade, that's what you want, isn't it?