38 replies to this topic

[Mister Blastman]

Mystere, on 05 August 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Hiroshima, we will never forget man's great inhumanity to his fellow man.

Sorry, I disagree. Hiroshima was a necessary evil. Had we not dropped a bomb on it and then Nagasaki, a ground war would have ensued and millions of people would have been killed--on both sides.

The bomb saved lives. The bomb ended the war. The bomb created a time of peace when we needed it the most.

I have no sympathy for the Japanese war machine considering what they did to the Chinese in Nanking (among other places). The bomb was the peacemaker.

War is stupid and it is hell. It is the worst creation of man. But make no mistake, the bomb was the best and only answer at the time.

[Lily from animove]

Mystere, on 06 August 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

This is the mentality that has made the first decade and a half (and counting) of the 21st Century terrible, and no different from the century before it.

Well, its mankind in generally we do not mentally develop much as a whole, we just develop new methods to do what we ever did: killing and destroying. The few people stamped as "hippies" with their mindset never got some true power to change the world. Since they don't have the personality required to get into ranks changing anything..
So at this weird moment we can be happy that nearly everyone has those mass destruction wepaons now, because it basically prevents anyone form using them because the retailiation would fulyl destroy themselves as well. It kinda keeps the word in a very dangeraous balance.

One more not is the weird word "inhumanity" One of the most secondary biggest lies existing. Because actually those horrible things done are features exclusive to the human race, which makes exactly this things we consider as "bad behavior" more human than most other things. Mankind developed methords of cruelity that neithe rnature nor animals do know. So how can these thinsg be called "inhuman"? They are a "corehuman" feature tbh.

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 August 2015 - 07:29 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Mystere, on 06 August 2015 - 07:07 AM, said:

Sigh! People are losing the point in trying to justify this horrendous act: IT MUST NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN! I repeat: IT MUST NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN!

It must--well yes, that would be nice. But it will. It will because man will kill to live. Overpopulation and undersupply of food will lead to another world war in the next few decades. It is a matter of time before some new madman rises up, seizes enough control of a country, money and assets to wage death on the soils of life.

It will happen. The Japanese knew what they were doing. They attacked and killed and when they were slaughtered in the most human way possible, you expect me to be sympathetic to them? I am not.

I drive a Japanese car now--my wife does to. I admire how far they have come and I enjoy their animation. With time the sins of the past can be forgiven... but they are never forgotten and never should be.

Man will forever kill. This is a fact. It is in our DNA. It is at our core. Life evolved on Earth through killing. I do not believe it can be stripped from our gene pool without making us something that faintly resembles what we are now.

And it saddens me because life is so precious and valuable.

[Mystere]

Mister Blastman, on 06 August 2015 - 07:20 AM, said:

necessary evil

I really love that word ( ). It has been used over the millennia to justify everything from little lies to genocide.

[Mister Blastman]

Mystere, on 06 August 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

I really love that word ( ). It has been used over the millennia to justify everything from little lies to genocide.

And the countless Chinese lives the Japanese killed prior to and during World War II was not a bad thing?

Please.

How about {Godwin's Law}? How about Stalin. This is dumb and you know it. The bomb saved lives. Shintoism prevented the Japanese society from surrendering. They would lose face. Japanese culture was and still is unique. Shame was a very bad thing there. It still is in ways. If there were a ground war we would literally have had to wipe them off the map.

We would have no anime. We would have no [Japanese] cars. There never would have been Sony or the Walkman. The VCR? Forget it.

The entire world we know today would have been irreparably changed had we not dropped the bombs. The bomb saved lives. The bomb saved... an entire culture.


edit: Changed for contextual clarity

Edited by Mister Blastman, 06 August 2015 - 08:17 AM.

[Lily from animove]

I don't reply to you anymore past this post. You imply too much nonsense and ****, I never said soldiers aren't people.
Now you imply I said those peoples life is worthless, which I never did.

But continue to tell everyone each life is equal, best is you set everyone doing a crime free (no matter what he did) because redemption means he may now be a good guy again after having done that one crime and another and another and anothe,r because after every of those crimes his life is still a life. Even if you knwo he would continue betaing people, stealing or even worse. But unless you would be able to proof in advance he is going to kill 2 more people you would not be able to have a justification about his life. because your logic does imply this totally.

Each life starts equal in value, but the acts of you as human will define the value your life gains and losses. With your logic, none of the police officers in the US would ever have a right to shoot at anyone. He should just let himself get killed, because his life is woth the same and after he will get shot, redemption and yadda yadda equality again.

Also with this mentality of life is life, how do you judge bombing any japanese anymore which you justified? because the claimed" millions that would die otherwise" is not even proofed until they would have been killed. So HOW DO YOU WITH YOU LOGIC justify any of these bombs anymore because REDEMPTION by yur logic would apply here as well. Can't you still see how your logic contradicts itself?

Dude check your logic. it is flawed in the base and a society of your mindset would set the entire world in fire ending in chaotic anarchy.

Mister Blastman, on 06 August 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

We would have no cars.

seriously? dude! some history lessons to that man.

but we mostlikely would have no MWO, because battletech was made after the mecha genre the japanese introduced.

And yte you would not have wiped them tnriely, you just would ahve killed their army and their gouvernment and return home and the war would have been over. The logic of none or everything is amazing, And everytime people come with thise 0 or 100 logic to such an extreme it reveals to be mostly people from the US. I don't like steoreotyoes but this is realyl makign me wonder whats wrong wiht US education to not teach people the "inbetweens"

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 August 2015 - 08:03 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Lily from animove, on 06 August 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

seriously? dude! some history lessons to that man.

but we mostlikely would have no MWO, because battletech was made after the mecha genre the japanese introduced.

And yte you would not have wiped them tnriely, you just would ahve killed their army and their gouvernment and return home and the war would have been over. The logic of none or everything is amazing, And everytime people come with thise 0 or 100 logic to such an extreme it reveals to be mostly people from the US. I don't like steoreotyoes but this is realyl makign me wonder whats wrong wiht US education to not teach people the "inbetweens"

Japanese cars, you nincompoop. *sigh*

Was it not obvious in the context of my post?

Heh US education system. I'm forty years old. I'm largely self-educated beyond that and I write science fiction. I've read... a lot more than the average person and I form my own conclusions.

You are obviously emotional about this subject and you need to detach yourself from it. Once you purge these emotions, you can look at things rationally. I spent years studying martial arts--Chinese, Japanese and Korean. Through these studies I learned a lot of their culture and the mindset behind it. I've even read and studied books on their philosophies. I was perhaps the only student in my class in World History to write a paper on these cultures instead of picking the usual Western/Eastern European topics--things like the Trojan Horse (that was the most popular, btw).

Millions would have died. Invading a mainland on a continent is one thing. Invading an island is another. If you read about the various battles in World War II, the most harrowing by far were the island invasions in the Pacific. If I had to choose where to serve as an infantryman it most definitely would have been fighting in the European theater. Island invasions were horrific.

The loss of American and Japanese life would have been extreme. It was the right thing to do. Calm down, take a breath and think about this logically. I'm not being extreme at all. There was no other way.

Hindsight is 20/20. It is easy to armchair now and say, "Well, that was a disgrace, we should have handled it differently," but in reality, you aren't in their shoes, you aren't buried in the fog of war, you don't have real lives on the line and you aren't dealing with the consequences as they happened.

The War needed to end and the bomb did the job. It was a tragic loss of human life but it could have and probably would have been far worse had we not snuffed out a hundred thousand souls in instantaneous torrential hellfire.

[Lily from animove]

Marack Drock, on 06 August 2015 - 08:12 AM, said:

If life is worth the same then that Police officer has every right to protect his own life as it is worth as much as the person he shoots at.

Quote

Also in World War II you have no idea what the outcome of the bombs would have been. Therefore the only logical choice would be to take the path that would be the quickest and might save the most lives. Logically there was no clear decision and thus there is no way to justify not using the bombs. Logically justify not using the bombs.

So we make a random guess to justify just evertyhing? LOl yeah the easy way. How about we nuke the entire USA now because, Korea and Iraq, you did also killed people there, and so we should just in case your next president may want to make any war (which we have no proof of) prebomb everyone. Because thats what your logic just allows at this moment. Especially considering in how many combats worldwide the USA is involved.
Seriously?

I would nove had bombed a civilian city I would have niked the palace of the emporer and probbaly a big military base. because they are actively involved into war. It owuld however caused also soem civilian casualities, but it would by intention be a direct attack to thewar driven forces and not some random people in a random city. And if you would read what I wrote I serveral times already told you not to attack random gyus instead the involved forces, so you were just asking for the answer you already had.
But the ballless forces prefer less protected less military relevant targets. And you know why? because it reduces the chance that opposite forces will try to hit your military hearts. and so this is some "soft" rule how higher positions ensure that they do not extinct each other in these conflicts and ensure they survive easier than randomfootsoldier Randy

It's the big lions screaming at eahc other, showing eahc other strenght by sacrificing smaller lions. the only times the big lions kills another big one is if he is very sure the other lion is a lot weaker.

@Blasterman i am absolutely not emotional, but the things some tell here have 0 logic and I can apply these logic into scenarios that Marock does not even respond to, like the johnson example, because suddenly they are inconvinient if the logic is applied in that scenario. But as long as someone can be declared as the "bad boys" and possible scenarios. Some evil acts is what can be covered as "good" or "neccessary evil" and whatever.

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 August 2015 - 08:56 AM.

[Mystere]

Lily from animove, on 06 August 2015 - 07:56 AM, said:

And yte you would not have wiped them tnriely, you just would ahve killed their army and their gouvernment and return home and the war would have been over. The logic of none or everything is amazing, And everytime people come with thise 0 or 100 logic to such an extreme it reveals to be mostly people from the US. I don't like steoreotyoes but this is realyl makign me wonder whats wrong wiht US education to not teach people the "inbetweens"

[Iqfish]

Lily from animove, please, take a bit more time to write your posts.

I can barely understand them.

[Mister Blastman]

Lily from animove, on 06 August 2015 - 08:25 AM, said:

I would nove had bombed a civilian city I would have niked the palace of the emporer and probbaly a big military base.

That doesn't work and history has proven it.

Osama Bin Laden--dead.

Terrorism--alive and strong.

Saddam Hussein--dead.

Isis--strong and growing more vicious and evil every day.

Sometimes when you kill just a leader or a military, you end up with something far, far worse. Killing Saddam was a BIG mistake. He was a ruthless murderer but he kept the peace.

To win a war you must crush their spirit and trample their will to continue. If you do not... they will come back... and they won't forget what you did.

War is awful. Man is almost not worthy of this Earth. But we're here and we need to deal with the reality of who we are.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 06 August 2015 - 08:57 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Mister Blastman, on 06 August 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

That doesn't work and history has proven it.

Osama Bin Laden--dead.

Terrorism--alive and strong.

Saddam Hussein--dead.

Isis--strong and growing more vicious and evil every day.

Sometimes when you kill just a leader or a military, you end up with something far, far worse. Killing Saddam was a BIG mistake. He was a ruthless murderer but he kept the peace.

To win a war you must crush their spirit and trample their will to continue. If you do not... they will come back... and they won't forget what you did.

War is awful. Man is almost not worthy of this Earth. But we're here and we need to deal with the reality of who we are.

yes because as osama bin laden was killed he was still the leader of the IS? No he wasn't the leadership passed.
Saddam Hussain had no relation to the ones who followed, he was just
a Ruler for ruling his country, US anyways just wanted influence on the oil and never cared about any humanity. US never went to kill "evil sadsam" also we could talk about those terrorists, who made them have equpment and such, it was the US who trained them because in the cold war they wanted them as local resistance to the Russians. And they used nice words about "freedom" too bad that at the moment the US came in they basically took that freedom away and the little terrorists trained vs russia now had a new opponents for the SAME reason: freedom.
Turkey doing a similar stupid stuff supporting IS to counter an opponent, but they sometimes get some backfire from those who they support. It's their wons seed as much as it was the US' own seed. it never had relevance to the old gouvernemt they brought to fall.

Marack Drock, on 06 August 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

You and me both Iqfish

I am also done feeding Lily. Your arguments are not thought out, your logic is shrouded in emotions and irrational thinking, and your grammar makes it damn near impossible to talk to. PM me if you wish to continue debating but I am reporting this thread for Discussion of Politics, and Real life violence all of which violate CoC. Maybe if we could all have a logical UNBIASED debate I wouldn't but as we are humans it is impossible.

I apply your logic into counter scenarios, thats all. Its your flawed logic applying but you can't even realise this.

Mister Blastman, on 06 August 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

To win a war you must crush their spirit and trample their will to continue. If you do not... they will come back... and they won't forget what you did.

basically the moment to admit genocide is necessary?

Erdogan said soemthign quite clever, despite doing a lot stupid stuff, he said you can't own EU with his religion by military conflict, but it can be won by the uterus of their women. And given the demography of many modern countires, this will be how they claim countires in future, by people sticking to their religions and cultures, their societies breeding faster than the "opponent. If China would export 20% of their population and they would all make 4 babies they could basically in a legit way own every "democracy" in 3 decades. All you have to export is your culture and overgrow the others culture..

Marack Drock, on 06 August 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

100% with Blastman again.

Man truly is not worthy of Earth... Evolution obviously needs to speed up the process cause we are on a fast track to global destruction.

where are those meteors if you need them?

Edited by Lily from animove, 06 August 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Take a look at pictures of Hiroshima in 1945 and compare them to Detroit in 1945.
Now take a look at pictures of Hiroshima today and compare them to Detroit today.

There are worse things than atomic bombs.

[Mystere]

Hotthedd, on 06 August 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

Take a look at pictures of Hiroshima in 1945 and compare them to Detroit in 1945.
Now take a look at pictures of Hiroshima today and compare them to Detroit today.

There are worse things than atomic bombs.

Well, one was the result of blood lust. The other was the result of incompetence and corruption, coupled with a healthy dose of greed.

[Marvyn Dodgers]

Please have your political discussions in a more appropriate "forum"

[Mystere]

Marvyn Dodgers, on 06 August 2015 - 04:00 PM, said:

Please have your political discussions in a more appropriate "forum"

I kinda thought "Off Topic Discussions" was the appropriate place.

And it's not my fault what was supposed to be just a post in remembrance was turned into a rationalization session by the guilty.

Edited by Mystere, 06 August 2015 - 07:04 PM.

[Spudbuddy]

Mystere, on 05 August 2015 - 03:20 PM, said:

Hiroshima, we will never forget man's great inhumanity to his fellow man.

clanner scum you disrespect terrans with your fake ******** we can see that flag of yours

[Mystere]

Spudbuddy, on 06 August 2015 - 10:50 PM, said:

clanner scum you disrespect terrans with your fake ******** we can see that flag of yours

Our ancestors, along with the great General Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky, left Tera and the rest of the Inner Sphere because they could no longer tolerate your ****. You, on the other hand, chose to destroy it while butchering billions using biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. You obviously never learned the lessons of that fateful day.

Edited by Mystere, 07 August 2015 - 05:54 AM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Mystere, on 06 August 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

And it's not my fault what was supposed to be just a post in remembrance was turned into a rationalization session by the guilty.

Meh, as disgusting as nuclear weapons are:

Hiroshima and Nagasaki death estimates: 129,000-246,000. Including 20,000 military personnel.


But when talking about the bombs, it's also good to include the full spectrum of the appalling disaster known as WW2.

Sook Ching Massacre: 30,000-100,000

Death Railway: 93,000-113,000

Manila Massacre: 100,000

R*pe of Nanking: 155,000-200,000

Total Victims of Japanese War Crimes from those four incidents: 378,000-513,000. Almost all of which were civilians.