239 replies to this topic

[Telmasa]

El Bandito, on 12 August 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

Cricital hits are dice-roll. Ammo/Gauss Rifle explosion is dice-roll. Artillery Strike is dice-roll. Overheating damage section selection is dice-roll.

They can all be controlled to certain degrees. Regardless of the method to curb large PP alphas, M:WO already has dice-roll mechanics in place.

He was talking about a hypothetical, real-life analogy, so you're opening a different can of worms here....

• Critical hits, ammo, gauss crits - these all aren't pure RNG. These things also all have health point pools, and must have the internals exposed in order to touch them at all.
  
• Artillery strikes are cancer, at least as implemented in MWO right now as a consumable magic card item, something I've gone over at length, including pointing out the RNG involved. (Arrow IVs and Long Toms, I imagine, if implemented wouldn't have RNG involved at all & would instead track in on a predictable arc or trajectory.)
  
• Overheating system...okay, I think the head should either not be possible or have its chance reduced, but I don't see how this is that big a problem. If you're constantly overheating yourself & hitting override to the point that this is a constant & common occurence when you play, I think you are doing things wrong.
  
• You forgot to mention UAC jam chance.

So, you do have a point, but it's nowhere even *close* to the level of what Wargaming does in its games - or what people keep trying to suggest could happen in MW:O to solve the "PPFLD" question.

My point is, MW:O keeps it tolerable, mostly. (I still think artillery & air strikes flatly need to be removed & replaced with the Long Tom & Arrow IV weapons.) So I want to keep it that way.

Edited by Telmasa, 13 August 2015 - 03:50 PM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 12 August 2015 - 09:51 PM, said:

Cricital hits are dice-roll. Ammo/Gauss Rifle explosion is dice-roll. Artillery Strike is dice-roll. Overheating damage section selection is dice-roll.

Crits: I really wish that all weapons had a 100% crit chance, BUT most weapons would also deal really weak crit damage. However, "crit seeker" guns like MGs, LBX, Flamers, and maybe SRMs would deal high crit damage. Thus, we no longer have the PPC being better at critting than the LB 10-X. Preferably, it would be cool if things like actuators had their own hitboxes that you could aim at instead of selecting them by random, and also being able to shoot off weapon hitboxes (i.e. aim at an Awesome's PPC to crit out that PPC).

Gauss explosion: Should be 100% explosion rate instead of 90%, really.

Ammo: I'd like a 100% chance to explode, but with massively lowered damage to compensate (so that ammo weapons remain viable).

Artillery: I hate consumables/moneysinks, they should really die in a fire...

Overheating damage: I think it should apply the damage to whatever location is housing the weaponry that caused the overheat. So, if your left arm PPC pushed you over 100%, the left arm should take the heat damage.

[Hades Trooper]

Alistair Winter, on 09 August 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

I just hope that one day, someone from PGI will kick down the doors to the forum and say:

"Here's the new heatscale, you spoiled brats! When you reach 50% heat, you lose speed, turn rate, arm speed and torso twist. When you reach 80% heat, your lower arm actuators will lock up and your radar will go haywire. When you reach 110%, your heat sinks will melt and your ammo will explode. Violently. Oh, and we doubled heat for all the lasers. Deal with it, f***ers!"

Amen brother amen

[Satan n stuff]

Alek Ituin, on 11 August 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

Or you can just use an optical timing system.

Also, railguns require capacitor banks as well. Where do you think they store the energy required to fire?

Those are just as fragile as other timing systems and they're not 100% reliable.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

In TT was a pilot can not even if both mechs resting in 30m distance to target a hit zone, but the dice decides whether head or left leg hit...and in the Romans a Mech kills alone Batallions.

In BattleTech universe you can indeed build horse-carriages and repair cars, but lost the knowledge of the wheel and its production lost.

they build more airspace hunter can keep Mechs and Neuro helmets ready, but missile guidance technology as after 2 WK them is unknown

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 14 August 2015 - 02:28 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Telmasa, on 13 August 2015 - 03:48 PM, said:

He was talking about a hypothetical, real-life analogy, so you're opening a different can of worms here....

• Critical hits, ammo, gauss crits - these all aren't pure RNG. These things also all have health point pools, and must have the internals exposed in order to touch them at all.

DUAH... no one's asking for PURE RNG.

Things are always simi-controlable, and when I'm discussing MWO, guess what, I'm discussing things WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE GAME WORLD. In which case, some things ARE actually dictated by dicerolls.

we're not asking for Morrowind levels of "Flail sword at enemy but my skills not high enough so even though it looks like I'm hitting the enemy I'm not because diceroll says no." mechanics. But on the same token, frankly, I'd prefer an expanding reticle or something that reduces pinpoint alpha's on the whole and reduces TTK which is TOO DAMN HIGH right now.

I don't want wargaming WoT levels of RNG, but at the same time I'd happily accept Warthunder-esque mechanics.

[Haji1096]

"Kai-Allard Liao's Yen-Lo-Wang crested the hill slowly with deliberate malice. Then he got alpha striked by twelve mechs and died."

[Satan n stuff]

Haji1096, on 14 August 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

"Kai-Allard Liao's Yen-Lo-Wang crested the hill slowly with deliberate malice. Then he got alpha striked by twelve mechs and died."

So MWO is exactly like tabletop after all.

[Lily from animove]

VompoVompatti, on 09 August 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

could just run around while ai would do all the shooting for us.

Mechwalker online.

[El Bandito]

Satan n stuff, on 14 August 2015 - 06:27 AM, said:

So MWO is exactly like tabletop after all.

I doubt a Centurion can survive alphas from 12 mechs in any form of BT.

[Zeriniel]

Haji1096, on 14 August 2015 - 06:23 AM, said:

"Kai-Allard Liao's Yen-Lo-Wang crested the hill slow quickly with deliberate malice Seismic Wallhack and Radar Derp, launching a UAV. Then he got alpha striked by twelve mechs and die but due to his high ping, the shots passed harmlessly through his mech. He then returned fire with his Gauss Rifle. Three Mechs hiding behind cover, were headshot, then stackpole'd."

FTFY

Edited by Zeriniel, 14 August 2015 - 06:46 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

El Bandito, on 14 August 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

I doubt a Centurion can survive alphas from 12 mechs in any form of BT.

There are mechs with 0 alpha damage, in case you didn't know. Anyway a typical tabletop battle is going to have just as much focused fire as an MWO match. If you're not specifically going for duels, you'd focus fire whenever possible unless you have a much better to hit when not focusing with one or more mechs.

[Haji1096]

We should each add on a sentence and write the next novel.

[Zeriniel]

Haji1096, on 14 August 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

We should each add on a sentence and write the next novel.

An MWO novel, where all of the drama and character interaction is replaced by Mechwarriors sitting in their mech bays planning out ridiculously expensive customization jobs on their mechs - followed by a two page battle where the mech is destroyed in on alpha strike.

[Alek Ituin]

Satan n stuff, on 14 August 2015 - 01:13 AM, said:

Those are just as fragile as other timing systems and they're not 100% reliable.

They're simple to build and more accurate than pre-programmed timings, since it only activates the coil when the round is in the right place, giving you more efficient acceleration.

Also, you can just pre-program a timing circuit. They're neither delicate nor sensitive, and if needs be, can easily be buried within shock/EM proofed casings.

[Satan n stuff]

Alek Ituin, on 14 August 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

They're simple to build and more accurate than pre-programmed timings, since it only activates the coil when the round is in the right place, giving you more efficient acceleration.

Also, you can just pre-program a timing circuit. They're neither delicate nor sensitive, and if needs be, can easily be buried within shock/EM proofed casings.

Do you have any practical experience at all with optical sensors? Because I do and I can assure you they are far from perfect.
It sounds like a great idea right until you take the thing out in the field and it starts getting dirty, at which point your entire gun stops working because all of your coils are trying to power up at the same time. Then you'd have to field strip a very complex and expensive piece of equipment and hope you can get it clean enough to work again.

[Dino Might]

Telmasa, on 10 August 2015 - 07:37 PM, said:

You speak heresy.

RNG is a direct counter to skill cap. It directly intervenes and prevents player's skill from being the dominant, determinant factor in a game, because no matter *WHAT* you do, the results are randomized out of your own hands.

Wargaming has turned the injection of RNG into every possible thing into an art-science with all three of their games.

I guarantee you, if there were no RNG - or a highly reduced one - with World of Tanks, the "unicum" players would be at 80-90%+ win rates, instead of being 'capped' at roughly 55-65%, and *that* only by constantly abusing the matchmaker's various gimmicks, gold ammo, gold consumables, riding the power creep, and so on.

You need to talk to a statistician. Please, before you make my brain cry even more.

[Alek Ituin]

Satan n stuff, on 14 August 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Do you have any practical experience at all with optical sensors? Because I do and I can assure you they are far from perfect.
It sounds like a great idea right until you take the thing out in the field and it starts getting dirty, at which point your entire gun stops working because all of your coils are trying to power up at the same time. Then you'd have to field strip a very complex and expensive piece of equipment and hope you can get it clean enough to work again.

It's only as complex as you make it. For instance, the circuitry controlling each coil can be a self contained "plug n play" module, as can each coil, each capacitor bank, and every other piece of the rifle. You could make a coil/railgun easier to field strip than an actual gun. (Don't try and pull that "den u dun no how 2 feld strip riful, hurr hurr" s**t with me either)

Plus, shielded timing circuit. Why bother fixing something when you've got redundancies? A few % less efficiency in your acceleration is a small price to pay to have your equipment still work after it gets dirty. More than you can say for quite a few modern firearms, that's for sure.

Dino Might, on 14 August 2015 - 09:34 AM, said:

You need to talk to a statistician. Please, before you make my brain cry even more.

There are three kinds of lies in this world:

Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

[Dino Might]

Alek Ituin, on 11 August 2015 - 06:22 AM, said:

Or you can just use an optical timing system.

Also, railguns require capacitor banks as well. Where do you think they store the energy required to fire?

Yeah, railguns have some of the same worries, and some others. As Bishop pointed out, we can get the same KE out of a much smaller package with a railgun, currently. I think, for military application, a railgun is superior because a significant portion of the firing mechanism (the rails) is easy to replace. With a coilgun it is much harder to fix/replace parts after being damaged.

Bishop, as for DU and the affect on armored vehicles, I'm not up to speed on the terminal ballistics. I'm assuming the fire isn't from the actual U-238 - all that is is a heavy metal. But when that impacts thick steel plate, the KE transfer creates a such high friction heat as it penetrates, that it ends up melting/lighting material on fire from the extreme temperature. I assume the same would happen with mechs, so there would be some balance of how much penetration you want. If we had an extreme case though, where we had such high penetration that not enough KE was transferred, you'd get the penetrator causing the heat and plastic deformation as the metals smashed together hard enough, but there would be enough momentum for the penetrator to cut a relatively clean hole straight through the mech/vehicle/building/ship. You want that post-impact superhot penetrator to slow down enough so it will bounce around and smash into things before it gets to the other wall of the compartment.

The other major contributor to vehicle crew kills from a penetrator round is spalling - much like in sailing ships of old, the actual projectile doesn't do most of the damage - it is the splintering of the internal wall material that gets shot out in many directions at high velocity that does most of the killing/destruction. Same thing in a mech, I presume. You want to basically splinter the ferro armor to spray it all over the internals, cutting ammo feeds, severing myomer, impaling critical systems.

I think at some point, more KE just doesn't help you much unless you alter the geometry such that more of the penetrator will have to be ablated as it burrows through the armor. The less of the penetrator that ablates away, the less energy delivered to the target. I think that's why you will use more of a blunted cylinder projectile (or sphere) rather than a dart, as is found on most of our chemical driven AP projectiles these days.

Edited by Dino Might, 14 August 2015 - 09:52 AM.

[Telmasa]

FupDup, on 13 August 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Crits: I really wish that all weapons had a 100% crit chance, BUT most weapons would also deal really weak crit damage. However, "crit seeker" guns like MGs, LBX, Flamers, and maybe SRMs would deal high crit damage. Thus, we no longer have the PPC being better at critting than the LB 10-X. Preferably, it would be cool if things like actuators had their own hitboxes that you could aim at instead of selecting them by random, and also being able to shoot off weapon hitboxes (i.e. aim at an Awesome's PPC to crit out that PPC).

Gauss explosion: Should be 100% explosion rate instead of 90%, really.

Ammo: I'd like a 100% chance to explode, but with massively lowered damage to compensate (so that ammo weapons remain viable).

Artillery: I hate consumables/moneysinks, they should really die in a fire...

Overheating damage: I think it should apply the damage to whatever location is housing the weaponry that caused the overheat. So, if your left arm PPC pushed you over 100%, the left arm should take the heat damage.

I'm not 100% sold, but this sounds like it'd be fun to try on a test server for a week or two.

Flash Frame, on 14 August 2015 - 03:35 AM, said:

DUAH... no one's asking for PURE RNG.
Things are always simi-controlable, and when I'm discussing MWO, guess what, I'm discussing things WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE GAME WORLD. In which case, some things ARE actually dictated by dicerolls.
we're not asking for Morrowind levels of "Flail sword at enemy but my skills not high enough so even though it looks like I'm hitting the enemy I'm not because diceroll says no." mechanics. But on the same token, frankly, I'd prefer an expanding reticle or something that reduces pinpoint alpha's on the whole and reduces TTK which is TOO DAMN HIGH right now.
I don't want wargaming WoT levels of RNG, but at the same time I'd happily accept Warthunder-esque mechanics.

See, that's reasonable.

War Thunder's mechanics are tolerable enough...they just ruin it by allowing any 1 shot to instantly kill any other 1 vehicle, whether tank or plane, just by dumb luck as opposed to RNG-forced-luck.

I think that sliding multiple reticules like from Elite Dangerous or World of Warships get close enough that we don't need to add any dispersion to the mix. And ACs already have a (slightly) noticable drop to them, right?

Edited by Telmasa, 14 August 2015 - 10:05 AM.