25 replies to this topic

[Rhent]

Can someone on the dev team explain why NARC has a range of 450M travels at 500 when an AC/20 has a range of 270M and travels at 650? Wouldn't it make more sense to have NARC at least travel at the speed of an AC/10 (950), you know an AC that has the exact same range?

You put out a weapon system that costs 3 tons to use, is primarily used by lights to act as spotters and you make it all but impossible to hit a moving target, forcing the lights to suicide, run up close to a moving pack, NARC and then run away. Are you guys purposely making NARC a joke is that PGI's goal here?

[FupDup]

It's probably the same kind of magic that makes MG bullet FX move at only 100 m/s (yes I know the damage itself is technically hitscan) or particle cannons moving slower than most ballistic shells.

[Juodas Varnas]

Missiles are too slow in general.

[El Bandito]

SRMs--270 meter range, 300 ms. Takes 0.9 second to travel full distance.

NARC--450 meter range, 500 ms. Takes 0.9 second to travel full distance.

I think someone is trying to be consistent.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 10 August 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

I think someone is trying to be consistent.

It's Paul isn't it...he likes to normalize all the things.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 10 August 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

It's Paul isn't it...he likes to normalize all the things.

Could be. I gave up trying to decipher the man's thoughts.

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Missiles are too slow in general.

Yes. Yes they are.

[Juodas Varnas]

FupDup, on 10 August 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

It's Paul isn't it...he likes to normalize all the things.

Except for missile cooldowns.
(Which, in my opinion, should be identical across different sized missile launchers, so 2xLRM5s weren't better than 1xLRM10, even though it's basically the same tonnage, crit slot, heat investment, except with tighter spread, lower cooldown, ability to chainfire, etc.)

[FupDup]

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 08:56 AM, said:

Except for missile cooldowns.
(Which, in my opinion, should be identical across different sized missile launchers, so 2xLRM5s weren't better than 1xLRM10, even though it's basically the same tonnage, crit slot, heat investment, except with tighter spread, lower cooldown, ability to chainfire, etc.)

I think the idea with missiles was to try to make some kind of tradeoff of alpha vs DPS/efficiency, rather than just slapping on the biggest guns at all times for the best of both.

Also remember that we have hardpoint limitations to prevent spamming of small launchers on more than 90% of the mechs, and those that get to spam them usually have a massive weakness (i.e. Catapult A1 and Mad Dog have bad hitboxes, A1 has zero backup energy weapons).


The only launchers that really don't have much of a role here are the SRM2 and the LRM20...of those two, even the current reduced spread and cooldown on the SRM2 aren't enough to make it viable even when boated. Every other missile launcher than those two have a role and a place to fill.

Edited by FupDup, 10 August 2015 - 09:02 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

FupDup, on 10 August 2015 - 09:01 AM, said:

I think the idea with missiles was to try to make some kind of tradeoff of alpha vs DPS/efficiency, rather than just slapping on the biggest guns at all times for the best of both.

Also remember that we have hardpoint limitations to prevent spamming of small launchers on more than 90% of the mechs, and those that get to spam them usually have a massive weakness (i.e. Catapult A1 and Mad Dog have bad hitboxes, A1 has zero backup energy weapons).


The only launchers that really don't have much of a role here are the SRM2 and the LRM20...of those two, even the current reduced spread and cooldown on it aren't enough to make it viable even when boated. Every other missile launcher than those two have a role and a place to fill.

But the problem is that 2xLRM5s have the same alpha potential as 1x LRM10 with higher DPS, lower spread and suppression capabilities. 2xLRM10s have the same alpha potential as a LRM20 with higher DPS, lower spread and suppresion capabilities
It simply punishes mechs that are already punished with little hardpoints and enforces the whole BOAT ALL THE THINGS mentality.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Dang...I got my hopes up. I thought this was a "Buff ac20s" thread.....

Tried to use an AC 40 crab at 300 meters.....I cried.

[FupDup]

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

But the problem is that 2xLRM5s have the same alpha potential as 1x LRM10 with higher DPS, lower spread and suppression capabilities. 2xLRM10s have the same alpha potential as a LRM20 with higher DPS, lower spread and suppresion capabilities

You need more hardpoints to do that though. Generally, hardpoints are a zero-sum game where if you add one hardpoint of type X, you have to give up a hardpoint of type Y (i.e. exchange a missile for a ballistic or w/e). If we had infinite hardpoints you'd have a point, but since we don't it's not really an issue.

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

It simply punishes mechs that are already punished with little hardpoints and enforces the whole BOAT ALL THE THINGS mentality.

Because boating only the biggest guns is so much better.


Here is how the missile roles look right now:

LRM5: If you have a lot of hardpoints or fairly low tonnage.
LRM10: A good compromise between the LRM5 and LRM15, I consider this to be the "sweet spot" launcher.
LRM15: When you want the most alpha, have low hardpoints, and/or have a lot of tonnage to burn.

SRM4: A decent, efficient launcher.
SRM6: Less efficient, but a wonderful big splat, also helps when you are low on hardpoints.


The outliers:
SRM2: A joke weapon, even when you have like 6 of them it's worthless.
LRM20: Even a single LRM15 is comparable, really.

Edited by FupDup, 10 August 2015 - 09:08 AM.

[Rhent]

xXBagheeraXx, on 10 August 2015 - 09:05 AM, said:

Dang...I got my hopes up. I thought this was a "Buff ac20s" thread.....

Tried to use an AC 40 crab at 300 meters.....I cried.

You play as an ambusher, you need seismic and you need to be patient.

As to Narc, its all but useless past 250M on moving heavy+ and all but useless past 150M on moving light + medium

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Juodas Varnas, on 10 August 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

But the problem is that 2xLRM5s have the same alpha potential as 1x LRM10 with higher DPS, lower spread and suppression capabilities. 2xLRM10s have the same alpha potential as a LRM20 with higher DPS, lower spread and suppresion capabilities
It simply punishes mechs that are already punished with little hardpoints and enforces the whole BOAT ALL THE THINGS mentality.

To be fair, it is all moot due to quirks, because the HBK-4J is still the king of missile boats with 2 LRM10s.

I think they should dial back the spread changes, at least for the LRMs to help balance the 5/10s against the less efficient 15/20s. As for the SRM2, I wonder how useful they would be if they had no spread.

[FupDup]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 August 2015 - 09:11 AM, said:

As for the SRM2, I wonder how useful they would be if they had no spread.

That's the idea I've had for them for quite a while. Let them be the really accurate missile in exchange a minuscule upfront damage value.

It might make missile range quirks more useful, because right now SRMs spread too much at range to matter and LRMs almost never get to 1000 meters or beyond in the first place.

Edited by FupDup, 10 August 2015 - 09:14 AM.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Rhent, on 10 August 2015 - 09:10 AM, said:

You play as an ambusher, you need seismic and you need to be patient.

As to Narc, its all but useless past 250M on moving heavy+ and all but useless past 150M on moving light + medium

Problem with that is you arent really doing much damage unless someone blunders into you. Every time withot exception ive seen an AC40 crab pushing into range it gets obliterated...

I only have 1 Narc mech atm. on my warhawk B thats set up to boat LRM's back when that was a thing. I belive it gets a narc velocity bonus, and that is the only time its been very viable...Anyone tho tries to peekaboo my LRM's gets a narc in the face for thier troubles.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xXBagheeraXx, on 10 August 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

Problem with that is you arent really doing much damage unless someone blunders into you. Every time withot exception ive seen an AC40 crab pushing into range it gets obliterated...

That's what happens when you try to brawl in one of the slowest mechs in the game.

Assaults really aren't going to be plausible brawlers unless they severely nerf aiming or create better maps that enable brawling better.

[xXBagheeraXx]

WM Quicksilver, on 10 August 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

That's what happens when you try to brawl in one of the slowest mechs in the game.

Assaults really aren't going to be plausible brawlers unless they severely nerf aiming or create better maps that enable brawling better.

325 crab goes 57kph with tweak...not blistering but not the lowest by any means.

But you are right. we REALLY need some dedicated city maps...no open areas, just narrow streets where its all up close and personal.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 10 August 2015 - 09:37 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

xXBagheeraXx, on 10 August 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

325 crab goes 57kph with tweak...not blistering but not the lowest by any means.

It's slow when you have an optimal range of 270m.

[El Bandito]

FupDup, on 10 August 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

That's the idea I've had for them for quite a while. Let them be the really accurate missile in exchange a minuscule upfront damage value.

It might make missile range quirks more useful, because right now SRMs spread too much at range to matter and LRMs almost never get to 1000 meters or beyond in the first place.

Say hello to JR7-IIC if that change goes through. Six missile slots, 0.5 ton launchers.

14 DPS with fast fire and cooldown modules. Only 3 less than the Huginn but helluva lot more accurate.

Edited by El Bandito, 10 August 2015 - 09:49 AM.

[FupDup]

El Bandito, on 10 August 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Say hello to JR7-IIC if that change goes through. Six missile slots, 0.5 ton launchers.

I'd still rather do something like 6 SRM4 for the hit-and-run value.