13 replies to this topic

[Sergeant Random]

Reposting an old post with a better title.

I will paste it here after original link.

http://mwomercs.com/...estion-threads/

** Here was the OP **

Posted 22 July 2015 - 08:28 PM
On paper, we judge mechs using 3 dimensions: Firepower, Durability and Agility. (For the sake of simplicity, I will leave out hardpoints and hitboxes from this discussion).

I would like to point out that the game code allows plenty of design space to give our mechs 2 more dimensions: Awareness and Stealthiness.

The code for modifying sensor ranges and speed of acquiring target or target data is evidently in the game. We see it in the form of electronic warfare equipment and sensor modules (Active Probe, ECM, Targeting Computer, Command Console, and all the sensor modules).

To differentiate our mechs along the dimensions of Awareness and Stealthiness we only need chassis specific quirks along these lines. (Maybe in the future we can have the relevant pilot skills too).

Let me start simple by defining Awareness and Stealthiness in terms of ONLY Detection Range = R. The current default detection range is 800m so we will start from there. Let us assume that the average mech with average Awareness will detect another average mech with average Stealthiness at 800m. Let's say these mechs were Hunchbacks.

We will quantify Awareness with Sensor Strength = A and Stealthiness with Chassis Signature = S. Given our assumptions, this works out as Detection Range = R = (A)(S) 800m. This equation makes Detection Range = R directly proportional to A and S. Our 1st Hunchback example will have A = 1 for its sensor and S = 1 for the target 2nd Hunchback ... That works out to R = (1)(1) 800m.

If our Hunchback can detect an Atlas further out at 1000m, then the Atlas will have S = 1.25. If the Hunchback can detect a Locust at 600m then the Locust will have S = 0.75.

Now we have a base equation that establishes the relationship between sensor strength and chassis signature, we can play around with giving mechs different strengths and weaknesses along these new dimensions. The good thing after this is that chassis/skill/equipment/module modifiers can now have a starting point. And mechs can be balanced by more than just Firepower, Durability and Agility.

And that has only discussed Detection Range. There is still the speed of acquiring a target, the speed of acquiring target data, target decay, (seismic? and other vision modes?). Maybe PGI hasn't used this design space because they wanted to balance what we currently have before adding more to the mix.

I hope they have amazing plans.

<!!! More Extra Stuff !!!>

Lovers of Active/Passive radar can find something interesting here, too - because Passive can now be just chassis quirk modifiers to the chassis default stealthiness and sensor strength. Active/Passive can be set to the ECM toggle "J". So everyone can join in on the stealth.

To give more personality to zoom modes, I think zooming in should also give you +X% current detection range (zoom value could also be a chassis quirk) BUT restricted to your field of view. So an LRM boat can sit in passive radar and scan around using zoom. The restricted field of view balances the bonus detection range comboed with the passive radar stealth. Or the LRM boat can zoom using active radar for even more range than default.

[Khobai]

I dont think it needs to be done with quirks. mechs already have size archetypes. We can just use the size archetype for detection range. for example:

tiny = 400m
small = 500m
medium = 600m
large = 700m
huge = 800m

the problem with using quirks is that youd have to remember what all the different detection ranges are for every single mech. thats a hassle to remember.

but if you used size archetypes instead youd only need to remember what the size archetype of the mech is to know what range the mech can be detected at. thats a lot easier to remember.

Edited by Khobai, 10 August 2015 - 07:27 PM.

[FupDup]

I like the general idea of sensor-based quirks, but they would have to be fairly large values to make them have the same value as more traditional quirks. +10% max radar range would be nearly useless by itself, for example.

The sensor quirks that would have the most impact would probably be built-in versions of the Target Decay and Radar Derp modules (and you can stack the quirks with those modules for added effect! Yay!). It would be nice if they could quirk for an increased red dorito limit, but IDK if that's possible (there was originally going to be a module that let you have 2 red doritos at a time, but they scrapped it because of reasons).

[Khobai]

Quote

The sensor quirks that would have the most impact would probably be built-in versions of the Target Decay and Radar Derp modules

modules that people take anyway shouldnt be built-in.

modules that people ARNT taking like 360 targeting should be the ones that are built-in.

like the raven should get 360 targeting for free as a quirk. I dont think anyone would have a problem with that. And it makes sense since the raven has an advanced sensor suite.

Edited by Khobai, 10 August 2015 - 07:31 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 August 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

modules that people take anyway shouldnt be built-in.

modules that people ARNT taking like 360 targeting should be the ones that are built-in.

Giving a mech a 360 targeting quirk wouldn't really help its viability.

[Khobai]

Quote

Giving a mech a 360 targeting quirk wouldn't really help its viability.

Sure it does. Its a free ability that it normally wouldnt have. It may not help a whole lot but saying it doesnt help at all is false.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 August 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Sure it does. Its a free ability that it normally wouldnt have. It may not help a whole lot but saying it doesnt help at all is false.

Helps about as much as a -5% missile spread buff...

[Khobai]

Modules slots are super valuable. If youre going to get a module for free you cant really expect it to be one of the better modules or even the best module.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 August 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

Modules slots are super valuable. If youre going to get a module for free you cant really expect it to be one of the better modules or even the best module.

Which is why many mechs have range and/or cooldown quirks that match or exceed the level given by their respective modules.

Derp.

[Khobai]

Quote

Which is why many mechs have range and/or cooldown quirks that match or exceed the level given by their respective modules.

Thats completely different. Those quirks STACK with the module. So taking the weapon module in addition to the quirk is still beneficial. Not only is it beneficial but its generally prudent to do so. So youre probably not getting a free module slot out of it.

But things like radar deprivation you cant take more than once. If a light mech gets radar deprivation for free it effectively gets a free module slot to spend on something else. Since it was probably going to take radar deprivation anyway.

If youre going to give free modules to mechs it should be some of the weaker modules that hardly get used. Because theres already reason enough to use the stronger modules, they dont need to be free. it would be nice to see weaker modules like 360 targeting actually get used once in a while... even if they have to be free to get people to use them.

Edited by Khobai, 10 August 2015 - 07:54 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 10 August 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

Thats completely different. Those quirks STACK with the module. So taking the module in addition to the quirk is beneficial

But things like radar deprivation you cant take more than once.

IIRC, Radar Derp was programmed to make the user's red dorito disappear earlier (the literal opposite of Target Decay), rather than being a hardcoded "instant" loss (the description is bad and they should feel bad). If you have Target Decay installed, I thought that you can still see a Radar-Derp mech for a brief moment before his dorito disappears...

Either way, they can (well, I think/hope they can) program it so that it just makes the user's dorito decay faster for enemies, instead of being an instant-cancel.

[Khobai]

its not instant cancel anymore. apparently they fixed it as an undocumented change.

[Sergeant Random]

Khobai, on 10 August 2015 - 07:24 PM, said:

I dont think it needs to be done with quirks. mechs already have size archetypes. We can just use the size archetype for detection range. for example:

tiny = 400m
small = 500m
medium = 600m
large = 700m
huge = 800m

the problem with using quirks is that youd have to remember what all the different detection ranges are for every single mech. thats a hassle to remember.

but if you used size archetypes instead youd only need to remember what the size archetype of the mech is to know what range the mech can be detected at. thats a lot easier to remember.

Yes indeed. But it should be difficult to memorize all the myriad equipment stats of enemy hardware... (Am I a glutton for punishment?)

As middle ground, how about a HUD indicator as to when you are being pinged by hostile radar (while in passive mode)? So you know at what range to keep stealthy.

It has the potential to develop into its own minigame - (arguably is it "game depth" or "overcomplication"?) but if something is rewarding to learn, it should retain some fans. In the heat of battle, you would be probably running active radar anyway and not minding ranges. But it could be something to do when out scouting an area alone - and reward triggers can also be designed for those tasks.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd like to see this sort of thing.

Also, mechs should just have a few Signature Quirks and have most boosts simply rolled into base stats.