7 replies to this topic

[Dino Banino]

This is more of a lore question than a gameplay question.

So, what exactly are Streak SRM's? I know they lock-on, but what kind of technology do they use?

How do they differ from LRM's aside from the fact that they're short-range?

Stream SRM info tells us the missiles "always hit their targets". Why do LRMs not always hit their targets?

Is there a similarity between Stream SRMs and Artemis LRMs?

What makes me even more confused is the existance of the Streak LRMs.

Streak LRM-5 info as follows: "The Streak LRM-5 marries the Streak guidance system with a standard LRM-5 launcher."

What is this "Streak guidance system"?

And lastly, what is the difference between SRM w/ Artemis vs. Streak SRM aside from the fact that Streaks need a lock-on?

[bad arcade kitty]

Archangel Dino, on 16 August 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

This is more of a lore question than a gameplay question.

http://www.sarna.net...issile_Launcher then

[Rogue Jedi]

Archangel Dino, on 16 August 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

This is more of a lore question than a gameplay question.

1) So, what exactly are Streak SRM's? I know they lock-on, but what kind of technology do they use?

2) How do they differ from LRM's aside from the fact that they're short-range?

3) Stream SRM info tells us the missiles "always hit their targets". Why do LRMs not always hit their targets?

4) Is there a similarity between Stream SRMs and Artemis LRMs?

5) What makes me even more confused is the existance of the Streak LRMs.

Streak LRM-5 info as follows: "The Streak LRM-5 marries the Streak guidance system with a standard LRM-5 launcher."

6) What is this "Streak guidance system"?

And lastly, what is the difference between SRM w/ Artemis vs. Streak SRM aside from the fact that Streaks need a lock-on?

1) streek SRMS are short range homing missiles wihch will not fire without a lock.
2) they will not fire if you do not have a lock
3) there are many reasons why an LRM may miss, the most common is that they are fired at a target behind cover, are outside there operational range or are fired without a lock, SSRMs can still fail to hit if fired at a target out of range, if there is something in the way or if they are shot down by an AMS
4) SSRMs and ASRMs are completely diferant, ASRMs are tighter grouped SRMs essently unguided rockets, while SSRMs are homing missiles
5) if SLRMs ever make it into MWO they will most likely just be LRMs which will not fire without a lock
6) sorry but I do not know this

[Lanzman]

IIRC from the fluff in the tech readouts, the Streak system fires a low-power infrared laser at the target to illuminate it for the missiles' seeker heads. Like a modern Hellfire, only SRMs fire multiple missiles with each "shot" instead of one big one. The system "reads" the bounce-back from the IR laser, can tell when the lock is steady, and fires off a brace of missiles.

[GroxGlitch]

1) Streak SRMs are a derivative of the SRM launcher family that are coupled to a specialized tracking system (titled Streak, hence the name) that will only launch if the mech's targeting computer can guarantee a 100% hit chance; this reflects to guaranteed, albeit fairly wild, hits in-game.

2) LRMs and SRMs aren't the same thing at all. Apples and oranges. The only equal point is they're both missiles. Streaks are derived from regular SRMs, and are effectively the same aside some differences in launcher mass and the like due to the Streak system.

3) LRMs don't always hit their targets because their launch parameters and guidance are both fallible, to put it simply.

4) Somewhat. Both are a missile subtype sporting advanced guidance, though the two are fairly dissimilar and otherwise unrelated. Both more or less have the end goal of increasing missile accuracy, Artemis by increasing missile cohesion and guidance and Streak by reserving fire until the system can be certain of a hit.

5) Streak LRMs are, as the description puts it, LRMs mated to the Streak firing system. Just like Streak SRMs, they are LRMs that will not fire unless the Streak system calculates a hit. They function differently from regular LRMs, having lost any ability to fire indirectly, and are a uniquely Clan development. They function well under the Clan rules of Zellbrigen but, under true battlefield conditions, their Streak function becomes more gimmicky, as the comparatively long distance and flight time of LRMs makes it possible for a target to get into cover or break lock and end up having those missiles anyway. In practice, they really aren't an improvement over the time-tested Artemis system and double the weight of the launcher anyway, so they're not exactly practical; the Inner Sphere never even bothered developing Streak LRMs of their own.

6) Artemis SRMs vs Streaks? As mentioned above, Artemis enhances missile cohesion (and tracking, in the case of LRMs), whereas Streaks are capable of homing and the Streak firing system attempts to avoid wasting ammo. In practice, the SRM + Art tightens the grouping, much like the choke on a shotgun, whereas the Streaks spread damage across the enemy chassis but avoid any of those missiles missing their intended target. Streaks, in all fairness, were much better in TT.

[Koniving]

Archangel Dino, on 16 August 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

This is more of a lore question than a gameplay question.

And you are about to get the most lore-rooted answers, with references, that can be given. Note -- this will take some time to read; settle in. I promise if your interest is genuine you'll find it well spent.

Spoiler

I apologize for the delay; I was going to answer yesterday but the girlfriend dragged me into bed and I didn't make it out until now.

This answer will be coming from multiple lore perspectives, as there are over 30 companies that make streak missile launchers and in addition to fitting, shape, etc., the missiles they produce may fit a certain 'standard', one must remember that every company has its own military secrets to give their products an edge (which has no feasible way to be demonstrated within the Battletech Tabletop game due to the fact that TT is a generalized summary of events transpired every 10 seconds and not a real time accountability.)

To back that point, regardless of the following AC/20s, Tabletop suffers from horrendous pinpoint front-loaded damage per weapon (as opposed to MWO's ultra extreme of per weapon type).
AC/20s referenced:

Spoiler

• 100-shot per second Pontiac 100 AC/20 used by the Victors. (Heir to the Dragon; primary reload is 2 seconds, fed through the shoulder. The heat and recoil keeps spam-ability down. Secondary reload is approximately 6 to 8 seconds depending on conditions and requires the left arm to pull a cassette/magazine from the right chest port and manually insert into the gun. This secondary feed is known to have issues with jamming but keeps the weapon functional despite some damage.)
  
• 5-shot Tomodzuru AC/20 used by the Hunchback 4G. (Era Report 52; factoring that 185mm Chemjet Gun is 4-shot and 150mm Crusher Super Heavy is 10-shot). (All HBKs keep their ammunition in the externally mounted drum because the Hunchback is too small [8 meters; shorter than MWO Commando) to carry the ammo inside. HBK-4SP has a rear CT-mounted drum for its SRMs.)
  
• 12 shot/cassette (3-shot burst; 12-shots per 'round' or cassette [tick on the computer indicator showing 6 'rounds' [cassette/magazine] per ton] 120mm Deathgiver used by the King Crab 000.
  
  • (King Crabs are known as hangar queens since they typically defend key targets and do not travel despite having a stock running speed of 54.0 (instead of 48.6). This is because the recoil of its AC/20s is so strong [and because the KGC cannot twist to improve balance], it is prone to losing its footing. The King Crab closes its claws during cassette exchange (reload). The act of deliberately closing the claws after firing a few bursts but still having ammunition in the cassette is known as the "Hangar Queen's Bluff;" and is known to sucker anxious combatants out of hiding.)
• The downgraded successor variant of the King Crab (0000) using the chain[belt]-fed fully automatic 90mm Imperator D AC/20 [while there's a belt switch time, it could spam 120 damage per AC/20 before having to pause; in an environment where the Atlas has 304 armor instead of MWO's 608. However the heat from doing so non-stop would actually make the mech collapse despite its extra-wide, low-to-the-ground and oblong structure, due to massive overheating [84 heat total, where ammo explosion risk is 18 units of heat, and the mech's heatsinks can handle/remove 15 units of heat per 10 seconds]. At the time of its design, all available double heatsink production was in control of the usurper, thus this design could not have that luxury.)

Now, I have established the knowledge that in lore there are hundreds to thousands of weapon variants [See Variant Example]. (Example: Instead of simply 'assault rifle', we have L85, M16, AK-47, etc.) In addition, I have established that these are forcefully summarized into "loosely fitting categories" to fit "expected results for the lesser-informed" in order to "give all field-forces an approximated threat level." (Years later referred to as Battle Value.) [See Weapon Categorization]

• [Variant Example] Another example: the standard medium laser has over 60 Inner Sphere variants; 47 of which are unique and the rest are sub-variants of existing variants [tweaked/modified, slightly different but ultimately the same] (Sub-variant example in the real world: Real world example: M-16, M-16A2, M4A1, M4A2, etc.,etc., etc. as opposed to 'assault rifle' or 'M-16') and these range from laser color, damage per shot, etc. (That list is valid until 3079; it's well past 3145 in BT now).
  
• [Weapon Categorization] all of which are thrown into a loose category of laser weapons as having approximately 5 units damage per summarized usage, 3 units of heat per summarized usage, 270 meters typically expected accurate-effective range and weighing approximately 1 ton).

I would also like to establish that damage is layered. What is 1 damage to a B.A.R. (Battle Armor Rating) of 10 (standard Battlemech armor) is not the same as 1 damage of a B.A.R. of 100 (Warship), or a B.A.R. of 1 (Infantry). As demonstrated here by using an LBX and small laser of an Urbanmech against a swarm of trolls that hate the almighty Urbie. Note the critical hit penetrates the armor, dealing direct damage to the infantry inside where "1 damage" is "11".


Much the same as a Warship's AC/20 will deal 2,000 damage to the mech it hits, on a multi-hex area of impact.

That said... Before I explain Streaks, I should first explain "missiles" as defined by Battletech as this would be crucial knowledge in separating distinguishing the difference between a "Streak" and "standard" missile.
In 1987... missiles were established as thus, written by the first Battletech Novelist William H. Keith Jr. and edited by the developers of the 2nd edition rules. Found in the canon BattleTechnology (in-world) magazine and produced by FASA (BT's creators). It was made non-canon in 2008 by Catalyst Games developer Herbert Beas II, for reasons of conflicts (with stuff in the 3070+ timelines, scarcity of the magazine, and flamboyant use of 'Unseen' imagery that is the subject of Harmony Gold lawsuits that they wish to avoid.)


(Unrelated tidbit: First edition years earlier was called Battledroids and was sued to heck and back by George Lucas both the unlicensed use and the "incorrect use" of the word "Droid.")

In 1994, missiles were redefined again.
"Both Inner Sphere and Clan military designers continue to devote considerable resources to missile research. Although the Cians currently enjoy superior delivery systems. Advanced Inner Sphere missiles and warheads slightly offset this advantage.
The new missile technologies spawned by this research can be divided into two main categories. Delivery systems technologies include new targeting systems and launchers. The second category comprises innovations in the actual missile. Most research in this category has been devoted to warheads." (Tactical Handbook; FASA, Page 56)

Essentially, they were given dozens of "warhead" variants for each weapon type.

(NOTE: Currently MWO has integrated 3 types of LRMs into 1 'LRM' warhead. Standard. "Semi-Guided", which is guided by a separate 'spotter' making use of TAG [Which I note this missile warhead is a 3057 invention and we're currently in 3049 to 3051 in MWO!!!!], and Homing, which is a standard LRM with lock-on capability. Note that standard LRMs are defined as non-locked missiles that have slight tracking capabilities, for use as an artillery weapon.)

(Origins and influences:
Standard LRM = standard MLRS rocket. Arrow IV guided missile = ATACMS missile. Catapult mech = MLRS (Multiple Launch Rocket System)
Demonstration. These are originally designed in 1977; note the use of accurate to 30 feet [BT uses 1 hex=30 meters] to a distance of 180 miles [BT uses 180 as a minimum accurate range with accuracy penalty for closer ranges]. It was, at the time, considered to be the most advanced rocket-based long range artillery in the world; impervious to counter measures at the time, virtually unstoppable and required only a spotter with a radio and a map, who could give real time corrections to target positioning).

Another note: In Battletech tabletop, Indirect fire is a capability of the LRM, however it cannot simply "just happen" under the game's rules. It requires another unit of any type -- including civilians and infantry; or anything that could (within-reason) have access to some sort of communication system and the ability to speak -- to provide location information by serving as a declared "spotter." A spotter can provide information on approximate target location, orientation, speed, and potentially even the target's intention. (i.e. gliding slightly left when approaching a road's intersection would be an indication of the intention to make a right turn without losing much speed; as can be demonstrated by semi-trucks with short / no trailers.)

An LRM's expected accurate range in Tabletop and lore is approximately 660 meters. Ranges farther than that are subject to an accuracy penalty that test the pilot's gunnery skill. This is unspoken, but the RNG chances of the dice rolls for accuracy also are to account for fallacies in the shooting pilot's predictions and potential evasive or defensive counter measures the targeted unit may have attempted (such as throwing a limb in the way of the missiles, or 'skipping' as Pretty Baby pilot Danielle is known for doing in her Awesome).

Returning to missile systems, SRMs are also guided in the same way as standard LRMs in that they are non-locked missiles with an inclination to guide towards certain things. (This varies from heat, movement, silhuouette, etc. depending on the manufacturer as well as who is writing it). It is noteworthy that SRMs fire in a wider swarm than LRMs because of two reasons: 1) SRMs are fired simultaineously (where LRMs are fired in sequence/streams). 2) SRMs are 'easily distracted' and known to 'attack' each other if they get to close. (Yay Stackpole-isms).

Now what's that? "Aren't SRMs dumb-fired rockets?" Lets clear this misconception up.

Spoiler

"First introduced in 2370 by the Terran Hegemony, Short Range Missiles are direct-fire missiles that sacrifice range for hitting power. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these self-guided missiles are unique for using a special armor-piercing explosive warhead. The development of a metal composite/high explosive mixture allowed for the warhead to be made entirely of high-explosive material; this same feature was later used to construct the missile's frame as well. The result were warheads which had the same destructive capability as older warheads that were four times as long, allowing for more missiles to be carried and fired. SRMs are less sophisticated than Long Range Missiles and particularly effective against infantry and combat vehicles. Clan SRM launchers compare favorably to Inner Sphere designs by being more compact and of lighter weight. SRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.[1][2]" Sarna.

"Short-Range Missiles (SRM) pack more power into the missile than almost any other kind. They lack sophisticated guidance systems, so they must deliver their punch at short range." Sarna.

While Sarna's details can be iffy, as can any "wiki" style source... the statement that SRMS are "direct-fire missiles" is universal. Remember direct-fire means "fired at the target." Indirect fire means "not fired at the target." It does not mean dumbfired. Also note: "They lack sophisticated guidance systems." Some explain the lack of range for their lack of agility, some for "reaction time" of the enemy (as if they aren't as fast as one might think), some for the fact that they are repeatedly 'tricked' in the novels. (There's actually a case where someone used what was effectively a 'cardboard cutout' of his mech, unfolded from a kind of sheet metal hung on a roof top to trick a swarm of SRMs. Another case involves using lava to sucker the SRMs off course).

Also note that SRM and LRM launchers can be outfitted with dead-fire missiles (Tactical handbook, 1994). These missiles deal "nearly twice the punch of their conventional cousins" in damage. (Tactical handbook, 1994). That is, 3 damage for DF-SRM and 2 damage for DF-LRM.

Missile Scale

Spoiler

Before I continue, I should note that there's also a big size issue.


MWO's missile is on the left.... MWO's autocannon round is to your right.

The "shaped sabot" is the Gauss round.

In Battletech, SRMs are essentially the size of vietnam-era rockets in the SA-18 (image is an SA-7; not that dissimilar), and LRMs are almost verbataim Stingers.



The size of an LRM in diameter, (the actual missile is shorter though not by much). Source: Novelist William H. Keith Jr. (first book; Decision at Thunder Rift)


The reason I mention this is related to the fact that hitting targets isn't terribly easy. Why?
Note the scale of this Shadowhawk.
On the left, a 55 ton tank. Center, BT's scale for the 2-series Shadowhawk. On the right, MWO's Shadowhawk.

For comparison, a scaled art of the Shadowhawk at approximately 9.63 meters tall. Remember, aside from the 5M, a Shadowhawk's stock armor is god awful and light. Ever wondered why?

They're pretty small. (To note: MWO's Commando is 9.7 meters tall).

Now most 2-series Shadowhawks had to be able to carry about 200 short-range missiles, and 120 long range missiles, as well as 1 ton of AC/5 ammo for an 80mm Armstrong J11 at 8 shots per cassette (to get 5 damage). That's 120 bullets per ton, spread across 15 cassettes (magazines/drums). Clearly the missiles can't be as large as a person. In fact, those tubes on the side of the Shadowhawk's head are intended to be the missile launchers. Food for thought.

Now back to standard missiles. Whether LRM or SRM, 'standard' units are self-contained and receive NO input from the mech or pilot. By self-contained, I mean that they are canonically unaffected by ECM, radio signals, etc. (ECM should not have an effect on "standard missiles," ever. Not in Battletech lore or in ANY version of the tabletop). Then again, standard missiles should not lock. Ever.

This established, we can now look at Artemis FCS (Fire Control System). I have 8 sources here... (Tactical Handbook, TacOps, StratOps, BattleTechnology, TechManual, Sarna, MaxTech, and the combined notes of 3 Novels.)
I'll give the short-hand now. Artemis FCS-enabled launchers not only replace the launchers but the missiles as well. The reason the missiles must be FCS-compatible is that they must be able to take "input" from the control system. It comprises of the launcher, an on-board computer system, its own dedicated transmitter, its own laser-guiding emitter, and the ability to set the frequency of and control the entire salvo of missiles. With the launcher controlling the missiles, whatever the Artemis system is lined up on and told to lock is what the missiles will be told to engage. This is an incredible strength, allowing vast increases in accuracy. This allows missiles to chase their targets rather than simply 'drift' toward them.

This, of course comes with a few caveats. It requires line of sight. This is because the missiles will follow the laser-guidance of the launcher like a flame to its moths. Without that line of sight and target, the missiles won't get proper input and will default to "standard" guidance. The other issue is that unlike standard missiles which are self-contained but pretty damn stupid, Artemis missiles listen to radio signals. This means that systems such as ECM can scramble and confuse them. When confused, Artemis-enhanced missiles will choose to ignore the input and switch to standard (bad) guidance.

In tabletop, an ECM positioned "ANYWHERE" within 90 meters in the path between the Target and the Artemis-enhanced Launcher when a missile is fired will cause the Artemis bonuses to be Lost. 90 meters being the radius, and 180 meters being the diameter in which ECM is effective. ECM cannot affect standard missiles because they are self-contained. Artemis missiles can pick up ECM interference and be messed with.

(Once Missiles and Artemis are established, define streaks here.)

Streaks are said to be immune to standard "Guardian" and "Clan" ECM.
Streaks have many explanations. The dominantly universal one is that Streak launchers come equipped with a computer system and fire control override which will prevent the user from being able to fire if the computer calculates any possibility of missing. This isn't fool proof, but in tabletop it may as well be. A streak launcher's missiles are self-contained. What the launcher does is calculate "dozens to hundreds of possible flight paths" whenever a pilot begins to assign the target to the launcher. The actual time it takes to complete the act of 'locking on' is the computer attempting to calculate these possibilities. If it believes a hit is virtually guaranteed, it will assign the appropriate flight path into the missiles and then confirm being ready to launch. This flight path cannot be updated mid-flight, so if the conditions break before launch the system will override the ability to fire, wipe the flight path and begin recalculating.

This means that streak launchers will metaphorically yank the trigger from your hand and slap you for not firing in that millisecond it decided that you could. This could prove troublesome. IS Streaks and Clan Streaks are identical in principle. The computers in Clan streaks (of 3050; not counting streak LRMs) are better in that they could program a flight path into up to 6 missiles at once and be able to calculate to a superior range. It is actually better to face down a Streak-6 than an SRM-6, as the chances of it firing are slim if you keep moving unpredictably. It may never fire, even!

Streaks cannot benefit from NARC, since streaks cannot pick up signals. SRMs / LRMs require special warhead variants nicknamed "Narc-capable" to pick up on and attack NARC'd targets.

(Made lots of edits. However FCS will be coming tomorrow instead. )
(Current edits: Minor fixes to things stated. Streak and Artemis generalization given. Added Dead-fire missiles, more on SRMs, how ECM affects each -- if at all. Other things. More sources and specific information to come tomorrow.)

Edited by Koniving, 17 August 2015 - 09:41 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Archangel Dino, on 16 August 2015 - 11:03 AM, said:

This is more of a lore question than a gameplay question.

OK, then. Here's the truth, distilled down to its most basic form possible.

Streak mechanics are an artifact of the way TT is played.

You choose to fire your 'Mech's weapons. You roll your dice to determine whether or not they hit.

Streaks are a bit unique. If you roll a hit, they hit. If you roll a miss, though? Your Streaks that you "fired," never get launched. You save both heat and ammo.

In short, Streak missiles are a time-traveling weapon system.



Seriously, though. The way Streaks work just in TT is just a poor translation of the way they're supposed to "really" behave. This is due to the fact you roll for misses/hits after you choose to fire a weapon - but Streaks completely turn that whole process on its head.

In effect, the most accurate way to visualize Streak missiles in TT is to imagine that your 'Mech shoots out a wire at the enemy. If the wire hits the target, a missile is launched along the wire, and will absolutely hit the target. If the wire misses, your missile doesn't launch. Obviously that won't work for an actual weapon system, it's quite silly - the point is just to explain how Streaks function in TT, not so much what they are

So far, there have only been two ways to implement Streaks in MW games. The first is, SRMs are dumb-fire and Streaks have a lock-on. Both MW2 and MW4 both used this method, and so does MWO. And it's a **** mechanic. SRMs are supposed to have tracking abilities. You're making a unique, powerful short-range weapon system into a shadow of what it could be with just a little bit of though.

The second is when you do a more "direct" translation. Your SRMs have homing abilities. Your Streaks act exactly like your SRMs, only they won't fire unless they're locked on to a target. That's the only difference. MW3 did this, and it's also terrible. It makes the whole weapon system completely pointless. Being able to dumb-fire your missiles without a lock is a serious advantage in brawls.

So, what to do...? No idea. Picturing stuff in my head now, maybe make them akin to what drones are in some other games? Normally your Streaks are in "standby mode." You press the fire button - with or without a lock, or even a target, doesn't matter. By pressing fire, you set your Streaks into "ambush mode" - akin to releasing a guardian "drone" in other games. They are now active and ready to attack targets, constantly from this point on. Once a (targeted) enemy walks into their flight path, they automatically release, and hit the target.

This would keep them pretty close to lore, and also maintain their current MWO status as an effective anti-light weapon system. Even better, both SRMs and Streaks now have natural advantages over each other (well, so long as you give regular SRMs some sort of homing and tracking abilities, which they're supposed to have) without having to mess with damage values or recycle times. Best of all, though, it makes Streak missiles a unique weapon, not just another version of SRMs or range-limited LRMs. Just an off-the-top-of-my-head thought.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 18 August 2015 - 06:51 PM.

[Nightshade24]

There is a few common guidence systems through BT... these are known as but not limited to...


Artemis
Apollo
Streak
Standard (differs from LRM to SRM slightly)


SRM Standard = it's a dumb fired rocket, it has no lock on abilities due to no real guidence system- the guidence system it does have is very old/ primitive/ simple which is simply "go here", This helps for minor corrections for eg a torso missile weapon will not converge and move normally so they slightly change course after firing most likely. (more of a phsyics then lore so to say, but it is still technically 'guided', just not lock on if you know what I mean)

LRM Standard = it is a lock-on guidance system for the LRM that can fire indirectly or directly*(like SRM) and can fire on ECM mechs (ECM protects from artemis if I remember correctly?), this guidense system simply allows the missile to lock on and guide itself to the enemy target and hit the enemy wiht more precision then a standard SRM launcher. Requires maintained lock.

Streak (SRM) = allows it to not 'require' a lock, as soon as it focuses on a target and fires it's on the target and guided, however you do NOT need to maintain that lock, you can fire and forget... also more accurate then normal SRM.

Streak (LRM) = simular to above, 'faster' lock, no requirements for continuous lock. but has other draw backs such as being bigger from memory and heavier I think.

Artemis = makes missiles lock on faster if it can lock on and also better guidense, can be disrupted by ECM I think (obviously in MW: O it blocks all missiles), for SRM's and LRM's it reduces spread.

Apollo = better then artemis.