55 replies to this topic

[TheMadTypist]

I agree the price is an absurd tax to be playable, only hampering new 'mechs more. It's based entirely in lore and doesn't really serve a purpose beyond a speedbump that most advanced players will skip over and most newer players will run into face-first. It's something that must be fixed prior to Steam's go-live, or we'll have a lot of new players running into it and losing momentum during those first crucial impressions for player retention. While I'd like it if they made single heat sinks usable (the first IS Omnis have locked SHS. At this stage, not worth even introducing them), I think that the only price for upgrading to DHS should be the cost of those first ten DHS in the engine.

The fact we have so much more "end game" content in modules, advanced chassis, and even clan 'mechs now (Dire wolf- 20 million! For just one!) that players will be running up against regardless of their own progression means we can handle such a minor reduction in the grind. Just because richer than blake players exist does not mean we should be balancing the "economy" around them.

Lugh, on 17 August 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

[redacted]

You're going to make this an IS/Clan thing? If they were demanding free Endo, or free Ferro, I would agree. But this is DHS, which is unarguably key actually using the 'mechs at the current power level- hence why every Clan mech comes with them by default. It's not customization, because nobody outside trial 'mechs runs SHS- it's the player standard, even if the lore doesn't agree. If you hadn't noticed, Clan Chassis C-bill pricing is a total of the stock gear and upgrades they come with- so if IS DHS are cheaper, Clan chassis prices are cheaper too.

To put it in purely understandable terms- If you had to pay 1.5 million to unlock the ability to switch out omnipods on a chassis, that would still be kinder than the DHS tax. Many clan 'mechs come with perfectly playable hardpoint configurations. A 'mech with SHS is not playable, not in a world dominated by DHS IS 'mechs, not in a world where clan 'mechs exist.

Edited by Marvyn Dodgers, 18 August 2015 - 03:59 PM.
Unconstructive in quote

[oldradagast]

My problem is less the money itself, as annoying as that is, but the sleazy feel it has and how the current setup is deceptive to new players.
1) It just feels wrong somehow to have to add 1.5 million to every "affordable" IS mech. It's like selling a car cheap, but if you want it to have an engine cooling system, that's an extra 3,000. It's just dirty.
2) New players will have absolutely no clue about how DHS are mandatory, and they are already strapped for cash, making it even more annoying and sleazy. It's bad enough that their mech really costs more than they think it does, but they also run the risk of actually playing games with Single Heatsinks and being utterly destroyed... and then possibly quitting.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

b-b-but 6 second jenner

lol

Thats a BS excuse in a game where the TTK is so low you die in less than that ALREADY in an Atlas

[oldradagast]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 August 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

b-b-but 6 second jenner

lol

Thats a BS excuse in a game where the TTK is so low you die in less than that ALREADY in an Atlas

While DHS decreases time to kill, "fixing" it by making it an absurdly expensive hidden cost on a bunch of mechs really doesn't fix anything.

I agree that TTK is too low, though most of that is caused by pinpoint perfect convergence, but keeping a stealth DHS tax in play in no way fixes the TTK problem. All it does is confuse new players and make mechs more expensive in a sneaky way.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

oldradagast, on 17 August 2015 - 03:16 PM, said:

While DHS decreases time to kill, "fixing" it by making it an absurdly expensive hidden cost on a bunch of mechs really doesn't fix anything.

I agree that TTK is too low, though most of that is caused by pinpoint perfect convergence, but keeping a stealth DHS tax in play in no way fixes the TTK problem. All it does is confuse new players and make mechs more expensive in a sneaky way.

The six second jenner thing was a Paul? quote as to why DHS cant be really double hs

Cause Jenners would core atlases in 6 sec but since that already happens then why not lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 17 August 2015 - 03:24 PM.

[SirNotlag]

Its already been suggested but I like the idea of removing the additional heat capacity that double heat sinks provide and putting it on the single heat sinks. That way double heat sinks decrease heat faster but singles allow for more build up before shutting down making them the more noob friendly of the 2. Doubles would still be better in my eyes because they'd allow for a more sustained dps if you manage your heat. It would be a global nerf so everyone is still on the same playing field and wont cause power creep.

TTK goes down cause people cant alpha all the time, and I'm sure some people might find builds they actually like with the singles due to the abundant crit spaces and higher heat cap.

Edited by SirNotlag, 17 August 2015 - 04:53 PM.

[oldradagast]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 August 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

The six second jenner thing was a Paul? quote as to why DHS cant be really double hs

Cause Jenners would core atlases in 6 sec but since that already happens then why not lol

Ah I thought it was referencing how TTK has dropped so much that a fresh Jenner now dies in 6 seconds. Gotcha.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

oldradagast, on 17 August 2015 - 05:10 PM, said:

Ah I thought it was referencing how TTK has dropped so much that a fresh Jenner now dies in 6 seconds. Gotcha.

No; this was from like CB or OB. Whenever it was that we got fake DHS

an jenners can die faster than that lol if I pilot them I always get one shot

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 17 August 2015 - 05:20 PM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

One Medic Army, on 17 August 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

Have first 10 sinks give 20 dissipation regardless of SHS or DHS.

Problem solved, now it's a legitimate choice between smaller SHS and larger higher dissipation DHS.

Agreed. The biggest boon DHS offers is not the heatsinks themselves, it's the doubled engine dissipation. Ten tons of essentially free SHS-equivalent is the biggest upgrade benefit bar none.

All of the others have some sort of drawback. Endo and Ferro take crits. Artemis takes crits and tonnage. It's only a very rare mech that actually has to make a sacrifice to carry DHS. Even so, it usually comes down to taking DHS or not being able to take Ferro in addition to Endo. That one's a no-brainer.

Let there be a reason to take SHS on IS mechs. Clan doubles are hax as it is.

[Grey Ghost]

I don't get it... What is stopping them from continuing to use a tweaked out Champion Trial Mech to raise c-bills for upgrading if they come up short?

What hurts is the lack of information inside the game. I recall from a small tidbit in the recent Dev Vlog that they are working on new tutorials. Hopefully this will include a robust Mechlab tutorial as well.

Edited by Grey Ghost, 17 August 2015 - 09:10 PM.

[Hades Trooper]

wanderer, on 16 August 2015 - 10:57 PM, said:

Seriously. Any chassis without DHS at this point in serious play is 99.99% likely to be crippled (Gauss rigs being the rare exception).

Remove the tax. Make 'Mechs able to be SHS or DHS as the person likes- but make switching between them cost 0 C-bills, with the only cost being the price of the actual heat sinks you're installing. Other than making people spend more money, making them pay to swap to an essential feature of 'Mech play is meaningless.

Leave the option to have SHS in, but remove the cost of swapping to the sanity of DHS.

One of the worst idea possible, you want those double heat sinks, you have had to always pay for them, why should we cater to poor IS who obviosuly having a whinge i'm so poor, i need a crutch.

[ApolloKaras]

DarthRevis, on 17 August 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

This isn't customization this is par for the course....if you DONT upgrade to DHS its not even worth taking it into PUBLIC queue.

Please give me 5 builds that are "Customized" and run SHS well in MWO....then maybe we can entertain your idea here.

Challenge accepted Armor values - I didnt care I just hit max armor lol.

Grid Iron

Cataphract 3-D

Jager

Catapult K2

Awesome 8Q

Last one runs a little hot on Caustic.... or in the lava at Terra Therma... Or just hot in general lol.

EDIT: Clean up links.

Edited by Saxie, 18 August 2015 - 12:52 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Saxie, on 18 August 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

Challenge accepted Armor values - I didnt care I just hit max armor lol.

Grid Iron

Cataphract 3-D

Jager

Catapult K2

Awesome 8Q

Last one runs a little hot on Caustic.... or in the lava at Terra Therma... Or just hot in general lol.

EDIT: Clean up links.

I think many already admitted that Gauss platforms don't need DHS. Gauss and it's non-existent heat are one of the few examples.

I like the Awesome though. Dat crit padding

Also, heavy ballistic lights don't really need DHS either due to the longer cooldowns and limited weapons that can fire.

(Panther 10P)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d541482bb493e6a

P.S. I plan on running this build, so I wanted to post it so I can reference it once I get home Also, I will be running DHS on it because DHS is already equipped on it . Still, SHS can handle the heat just fine.

[ApolloKaras]

MeiSooHaityu, on 18 August 2015 - 02:22 AM, said:

I think many already admitted that Gauss platforms don't need DHS. Gauss and it's non-existent heat are one of the few examples.

I like the Awesome though. Dat crit padding

Also, heavy ballistic lights don't really need DHS either due to the longer cooldowns and limited weapons that can fire.

(Panther 10P)
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d541482bb493e6a

P.S. I plan on running this build, so I wanted to post it so I can reference it once I get home Also, I will be running DHS on it because DHS is already equipped on it . Still, SHS can handle the heat just fine.

lol I was kinda pokin fun at Darth. That Panther is viable with the single heat sinks, I mean that AC10 doesnt get hot at all.

[Pjwned]

Saxie, on 18 August 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

Challenge accepted Armor values - I didnt care I just hit max armor lol.

Grid Iron

Cataphract 3-D

Jager

Catapult K2

Awesome 8Q

Last one runs a little hot on Caustic.... or in the lava at Terra Therma... Or just hot in general lol.

EDIT: Clean up links.

Gauss rifle builds are not actually proving anything by the way, and in all of those builds the only reason to not use DHS instead is to save some c-bills.

Meanwhile, I improved your AWS-8Q build dramatically by switching to DHS with more cooling, a bigger engine, and an engine that won't be destroyed when a side torso is gone, and due to its quirks you can probably even run 4 PPCs and still be fine.

Edited by Pjwned, 18 August 2015 - 05:51 AM.

[ApolloKaras]

Pjwned, on 18 August 2015 - 05:48 AM, said:

Gauss rifle builds are not actually proving anything by the way, and in all of those builds the only reason to not use DHS instead is to save some c-bills.

Meanwhile, I improved your AWS-8Q build dramatically by switching to DHS with more cooling, a bigger engine, and an engine that won't be destroyed when a side torso is gone, and due to its quirks you can probably even run 4 PPCs and still be fine.

You missed my other post didn't you.

[Pjwned]

Saxie, on 18 August 2015 - 05:55 AM, said:

You missed my other post didn't you.

Still a good reference to come back to whenever somebody says that SHS are somehow not worthless.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Saving money is still part of the equation regardless, as long as it doesn't dramatically alter the playability of the mech, it could be seen as "viable".

The Panther I posted could be ran with DHS and achieve over 80% cooling efficiency instead of the 45% with SHS. Still, if you didn't have the dough, I think 45% cooling efficiency should be just as doable.

P.S. Treating the Panther 10P (just like most if not all light mech/big ballistic) as viable is heavily questionable anyway. Still, if that is what you're working with, you could save 1.5mil not going to DHS.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 18 August 2015 - 06:17 AM.

[Dodger79]

DarthRevis, on 17 August 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

Along with a cost cut i would like to be able to co back and forth if i pleased without it costing anymore once i upgraded to DHS.

Its silly to charge me to go back to stock.....just dumb. On Endo and Ferro as well but this is a minor gripe...

DHS for all mechs should be the norm right now....When you buy the mech why dont they just let you choose DHS? ENDO? FERRO? and apply it to the cost.

I totally agree with that. It always was a real pain in the ass when you wanted to play in a Stockmech-event and had to spent millions just to turn your competetive builds back into their stock designs and after the event vice versa. Or, even worse, have to do it several times a week for a longer ongoing event but be able to play succesfully between the stock-matches in soloqueue...

[Revis Volek]

Dodger79, on 18 August 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

I totally agree with that. It always was a real pain in the ass when you wanted to play in a Stockmech-event and had to spent millions just to turn your competetive builds back into their stock designs and after the event vice versa. Or, even worse, have to do it several times a week for a longer ongoing event but be able to play succesfully between the stock-matches in soloqueue...

Exactly, also with things like Marik Civil war or matches with restrictions from community driven stuff. Be nice to do it at no cost once you upgraded.

Saxie, on 18 August 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

Challenge accepted Armor values - I didnt care I just hit max armor lol.

Grid Iron

Cataphract 3-D

Jager

Catapult K2

Awesome 8Q

Last one runs a little hot on Caustic.... or in the lava at Terra Therma... Or just hot in general lol.

EDIT: Clean up links.

LOL! Saxie you dirty *&^%$ haha!

Dat AWS does seem fun...but DHS would make it more fun. And you have seen my GI, its only Gauss! I think I could run it with NHS (no Heat Sinks lolz)

Edited by DarthRevis, 18 August 2015 - 07:33 AM.