136 replies to this topic

[AncientRaig]

I'm getting extremely tired of getting facehugged by MG lights and torn apart in a few seconds by the little things. While I agree that lights should be a viable choice (without any real "scouting" mechanics they can't fill their intended role in MWO so they need to be combat viable), it's unbelievably aggravating to fight something like a Piranha. They run up and hug you as close as possible, and if you're in a mech like the Fafnir, you're completely defenseless. You won't do considerable damage to them with your piddly two ML before they core you out or just leg you. And even if you have heavier arm mounted weapons, you'll be shooting blind because you can't see far enough down to aim for anything other than their target brackets. Sometimes it isn't even clear which angle they're shooting you from because of the damage model lag. And on top of that, even if you do drive them off, if they got even half a second of firing time at internal structure you've lost at least one weapon, or some ammo ,or a heat sink. This is pretty much guaranteed if they're able to spend any sort of time in your rear arc. Assaults in general are too lumbering and clumsy to be able to get their backs behind something solid before they lose their rear armor and get something critted out, assuming the rear armor hasn't been damaged or destroyed by an airstrike yet. These little things are still far too effective, and a 1v1 between a 100 ton mech and a 20 ton mech should be weighted in favor of the 100 tonner.

Now, I know everyone is going to immediately jump at me and tell me "You're just bad!", "Learn to play!", MG lights are perfectly balanced!", or something along those lines if I try to ask for a nerf, so how about this. Since we can't simply kick the things, could assaults get a buff to their torso depression angles? At least enough so we can see the little things? And maybe a bit of an agility buff so we can protect ourselves a bit more efficiently? It would make things so much better if we at least didn't have to fight them blindly, even if we still can't bring our torso weapons to bear.

[Ghogiel]

AncientRaig, on 14 July 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

I'm getting extremely tired of getting facehugged by MG lights and torn apart in a few seconds by the little things. While I agree that lights should be a viable choice (without any real "scouting" mechanics they can't fill their intended role in MWO so they need to be combat viable), it's unbelievably aggravating to fight something like a Piranha. They run up and hug you as close as possible, and if you're in a mech like the Fafnir, you're completely defenseless. You won't do considerable damage to them with your piddly two ML before they core you out or just leg you. And even if you have heavier arm mounted weapons, you'll be shooting blind because you can't see far enough down to aim for anything other than their target brackets. Sometimes it isn't even clear which angle they're shooting you from because of the damage model lag. And on top of that, even if you do drive them off, if they got even half a second of firing time at internal structure you've lost at least one weapon, or some ammo ,or a heat sink. This is pretty much guaranteed if they're able to spend any sort of time in your rear arc. Assaults in general are too lumbering and clumsy to be able to get their backs behind something solid before they lose their rear armor and get something critted out, assuming the rear armor hasn't been damaged or destroyed by an airstrike yet. These little things are still far too effective, and a 1v1 between a 100 ton mech and a 20 ton mech should be weighted in favor of the 100 tonner.

Now, I know everyone is going to immediately jump at me and tell me "You're just bad!", "Learn to play!", MG lights are perfectly balanced!", or something along those lines if I try to ask for a nerf, so how about this. Since we can't simply kick the things, could assaults get a buff to their torso depression angles? At least enough so we can see the little things? And maybe a bit of an agility buff so we can protect ourselves a bit more efficiently? It would make things so much better if we at least didn't have to fight them blindly, even if we still can't bring our torso weapons to bear.

I don't think PGI are that dumb as to not be rubbing their chin over what to do with the PIR. They probably don't know how to nerf it so as not to kill it or MGs totally. It's really not an easy answer imo. But it's out for cbills and they've nerfed far weaker mechs for doing far less so the odds are good it'll have some minor nerf to appease the masses in the next few months

[AncientRaig]

Ghogiel, on 14 July 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

I don't think PGI are that dumb as to not be rubbing their chin over what to do with the PIR. They probably don't know how to nerf it so as not to kill it or MGs totally. It's really not an easy answer imo. But it's out for cbills and they've nerfed far weaker mechs for doing far less so the odds are good it'll have some minor nerf to appease the masses in the next few months

Lets be honest. PGI is well known for hitting weapons systems with blanket nerfs because one or two mechs are overperforming with them. They did it with UACs because of the Kodiak, they're doing it with LRMs because of the Supernova, and they might do it to Gauss because of the Deathstrike. Hell, Clan PPCs are useless these days because of the reduced heat cap on Clan mechs. You can't viably use two of them with 17 DHS. They'd totally nerf the crap out of MGs because of the Piranha.

Edited by AncientRaig, 14 July 2018 - 09:39 PM.

[BrunoSSace]

All assults in general could use a base %15 agility increase. Most people will not disagree with you there. They are just too unresponsive and too unfun to play atm.

[El Bandito]

I began to play again with my KDK-3 lately, and found out that its torso pitch is so bad, I cannot aim upwards/downwards at enemies on gentle slopes. What the actual ****!? The pitch needs to be buffed pronto.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 July 2018 - 11:08 PM.

[arcana75]

Last night I was in Rubellite in my Kraken, pushed the enemy down a gentle slope maybe 20-25 degrees, I COULD NOT aim my torso weapons at the enemy. I was quickly dispatched without being able to fire a shot. How humiliating.

[IIXxXII]

AncientRaig, on 14 July 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

I'm getting extremely tired of getting facehugged by MG lights ............even if you have heavier arm mounted weapons, you'll be shooting blind because you can't see far enough down to aim for anything other than their target brackets.

Now, I know everyone is going to immediately jump at me and tell me "You're just bad!", "Learn to play!", MG lights are perfectly balanced!", or something along those lines if I try to ask for a nerf, so how about this. Since we can't simply kick the things, could assaults get a buff to their torso depression angles?

Good proposal. +1

[lazorbeamz]

Bad torso pitch doesnt help the assaults but id like to remind that there are pitch angle skills and they can improve it. It s a bit inconvenient that you have to take half of the mobility tree but there s that.

Also the fact that you dont have enough torso pitch or feel so just means that it is a viable balance factor and either way it introduces more variables into gameplay which makes it more interesting. If you always had enough of torso pitch then t would effectively not matter and basically all mechs would be the same thing.

1v1 the light should be able to do just that. You need someone else to help you.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 14 July 2018 - 10:48 PM.

[Weeny Machine]

1. Agility
I don't know if it is a good thing to make assaults more agile (ok, the exception are the really sluggish 100t etc). After all the only thing which can really bother them is a light mech. Currently there are more than enough assaults on the field usually.

2. Facehugging
I agree that this is stupid. However, PGI is to blame because of their great re-sizing. On the other hand 35t mechs are too large and easily hit (and their agility also sucks)

Ghogiel, on 14 July 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

I don't think PGI are that dumb as to not be rubbing their chin over what to do with the PIR. They probably don't know how to nerf it so as not to kill it or MGs totally. It's really not an easy answer imo. But it's out for cbills and they've nerfed far weaker mechs for doing far less so the odds are good it'll have some minor nerf to appease the masses in the next few months

The PIR 1 is very good but not op. It is, in fact, fragile as hell. Hwoever, it punishes brutally people who do not pay attention to their surroundings.

Also, if it were THAT op how people want to make you believe...why are there mostly just 1 of them in a team? After the initial frenzy of having a new mech wore off, I have seen again more ACHs than PIRs. The matches should be flooded by them because people gravitate to the op crap

Edited by Bush Hopper, 14 July 2018 - 11:13 PM.

[El Bandito]

lazorbeamz, on 14 July 2018 - 10:46 PM, said:

Bad torso pitch doesnt help the assaults but id like to remind that there are pitch angle skills and they can improve it. It s a bit inconvenient that you have to take half of the mobility tree but there s that.

The torso skills are all % based, which means they are not worth the skill points on many big assaults. If they were flat numbers, I can see them being useful.

lazorbeamz, on 14 July 2018 - 10:46 PM, said:

Also the fact that you dont have enough torso pitch or feel so just means that it is a viable balance factor and either way it introduces more variables into gameplay which makes it more interesting. If you always had enough of torso pitch then t would effectively not matter and basically all mechs would be the same thing.

I am not talking about looking down enough to shoot the little bugger chewing your leg. I am talking about pitch degrees so bad, one is literally unable to aim at a heavy/assault mech that is just slightly above or below him at close range. Mechs like KDK-3 are now only good for flat grounds. I'm fine with slow *** turn/twist speed, and even bad torso yaw on meta Assaults, but bad torso pitch is very un-fun.

Edited by El Bandito, 14 July 2018 - 11:14 PM.

[AncientRaig]

lazorbeamz, on 14 July 2018 - 10:46 PM, said:

Bad torso pitch doesnt help the assaults but id like to remind that there are pitch angle skills and they can improve it. It s a bit inconvenient that you have to take half of the mobility tree but there s that.

Also the fact that you dont have enough torso pitch or feel so just means that it is a viable balance factor and either way it introduces more variables into gameplay which makes it more interesting. If you always had enough of torso pitch then t would effectively not matter and basically all mechs would be the same thing.

1v1 the light should be able to do just that. You need someone else to help you.

Taking enough mobility tree skills to reach that point gimps you heavily in other parts of the tree that are a lot more important for fighting non-leg humping mechs. The existence of the skill tree isn't really a justification for this.

So 1v1 the assault should just be dead? End of story? I fail to see how that's fair or balanced. Or even fun. Assaults are slow and big, but they bring a lot of firepower. They shouldn't be utterly helpless against a mech a 5th of their tonnage simply because it gets up close.

[YueFei]

El Bandito, on 14 July 2018 - 11:11 PM, said:

I am not talking about looking down enough to shoot the little bugger chewing your leg. I am talking about pitch degrees so bad, one is literally unable to aim at a heavy/assault mech that is just slightly above or below him at close range. Mechs like KDK-3 are now only good for flat grounds. I'm fine with slow *** turn/twist speed, and even bad torso yaw on meta Assaults, but bad torso pitch is very un-fun.

I would vote for asymmetric torso pitch angle limits, at the very least. That is, allow mechs to pitch down farther than they can pitch up.

As it is now, you end up with awkward situations where you're on higher ground, but your crosshairs are stuck just above an enemy's head, but he can pitch upward high enough to blast away at your legs/crotch.

Edited by YueFei, 15 July 2018 - 12:48 AM.

[Horseman]

AncientRaig, on 14 July 2018 - 11:23 PM, said:

So 1v1 the assault should just be dead? End of story? I fail to see how that's fair or balanced. Or even fun. Assaults are slow and big, but they bring a lot of firepower. They shouldn't be utterly helpless against a mech a 5th of their tonnage simply because it gets up close.

If one of your assaults is going 1V1 against a light, then your team messed up.

[AncientRaig]

Horseman, on 15 July 2018 - 12:44 AM, said:

If one of your assaults is going 1V1 against a light, then your team messed up.

Okay. What's your point though? What's your actual point here? Because you're talking a whole lot without actually saying anything here. While it's great to say that, and on paper it even looks good, in the reality of a match there are situations where you'll be alone. Or you'll be in a small group with MUCH bigger problems. You can't always have one mech on "anti-light" duty, especially with how small the population of light players is (thanks "role warfare") meaning that the enemy team isn't always going to have a light, and that light isn't going to be there all the time. You can't always have one guy not taking part in the poke or the brawl solely to make sure that one enemy mech doesn't sweep in for a quick pass.

You're arguing that a mech should be made invalid if it has to face another mech. A mech that should, by all logic, be inferior to it in many, many regards. But even if we take the stance that a light mech should be capable of fighting an assault one on one, the chances for victory for either player, assuming good builds and roughly equal skill, should be roughly 50/50. The assault should not be free damage for the light just because the rest of the team has outpaced him. Should the entire team stay behind to escort the Dire Wolf on Domination, just to make sure that an Arctic Cheetah who is probably capping doesn't flank wide and kill him? No, they're going to be trying to get to the point as fast as possible so the game doesn't end in a loss.

Lights, mediums, and even some heavies have the speed to choose their engagements even if the enemy is pushing them. Assaults can't. If they get in a fight they can't run away. They have to stand and fight. Lights shouldn't get a "get out of danger free" card just for being lights against an assault. If I can't put a foot through the cockpit of a leg-humper, I should be able to defend myself in some other fashion, instead of being put into a situation where I may as well just power down and quit out because I'm not allowed to defend myself so a light pilot can feel useful.

[Weeny Machine]

AncientRaig, on 15 July 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

Okay. What's your point though? What's your actual point here? Because you're talking a whole lot without actually saying anything here. While it's great to say that, and on paper it even looks good, in the reality of a match there are situations where you'll be alone. Or you'll be in a small group with MUCH bigger problems. You can't always have one mech on "anti-light" duty, especially with how small the population of light players is (thanks "role warfare") meaning that the enemy team isn't always going to have a light, and that light isn't going to be there all the time.

Weird. When light mech pilots complain about streaks they got to hear: let the streak boats be killed by your teammates or similar stuff.

Or in general if a light has nearly zero chance vs a mech class, it gets to hear "your class is not supposed to beat class/mech X"


Double standards...

Edited by Bush Hopper, 15 July 2018 - 02:38 AM.

[Horseman]

AncientRaig, on 15 July 2018 - 01:20 AM, said:

Okay. What's your point though? What's your actual point here? Because you're talking a whole lot without actually saying anything here. While it's great to say that, and on paper it even looks good, in the reality of a match there are situations where you'll be alone.

In the reality of an assault mech, if you're alone and too far from your teammates to receive support, then you're dead. Whether you intentionally split from the team or your team deliberately left you to die, you're a slow, massive target and will suffer heavy damage if the enemy team spots you simply because they can't afford to let you regroup with your teammates.

Quote

You can't always have one mech on "anti-light" duty, especially with how small the population of light players is (thanks "role warfare") meaning that the enemy team isn't always going to have a light, and that light isn't going to be there all the time. You can't always have one guy not taking part in the poke or the brawl solely to make sure that one enemy mech doesn't sweep in for a quick pass.

You can't afford not to.

Quote

You're arguing that a mech should be made invalid if it has to face another mech.

I'm arguing that a lone unsupported mech has to either be very mobile (which assaults are not), or it's a dead mech walking. Changing torso mobility would not affect that, your lone and unsupported assault would still be a fire magnet for the enemy team's ranged mechs.

Quote

Should the entire team stay behind to escort the Dire Wolf on Domination, just to make sure that an Arctic Cheetah who is probably capping doesn't flank wide and kill him? No, they're going to be trying to get to the point as fast as possible so the game doesn't end in a loss.

You don't need to be nascaring straight for the cap zone as long as your team's fastest mech gets there long enough for the rest of you to start shooting. Since the cap is stopped if you scratch any ofthe capping mechs, dropping an arty strike on the cap zone also works as a delaying strategy.
And no, you don't all have to be escorting the DWF, just maintain LOS/LOF to his position so that you can provide fire support if he needs it.
Or you could bring one LRM mech (even a Trebuchet would do) and train the 100-ton puppy to press R when engaged by enemy lights.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Ghogiel, on 14 July 2018 - 09:17 PM, said:

They probably don't know how to nerf it so as not to kill it or MGs totally. It's really not an easy answer imo.

Erm.. just make the cone of fire exponentially bigger the more MGs are fired at once. It's that easy to balance.

[AncientRaig]

Bush Hopper, on 15 July 2018 - 02:37 AM, said:

Weird. When light mech pilots complain about streaks they got to hear: let the streak boats be killed by your teammates or similar stuff.

Or in general if a light has nearly zero chance vs a mech class, it gets to hear "your class is not supposed to beat class/mech X"


Double standards...

Streaks can be countered by running ECM and keeping inside the range where TAG/NARC doesn't counter ECM. And anything that can actually mount enough streaks to be threatening to a light can often just be outrun by that light. Most of the popular lights already mount ECM, and streakboats are pretty rare all things considered since the light population is already pretty low and they're pretty much useless against anything heavier than 35 tons. Their DPS is also pretty ****. I'm personally not a fan of the weapon system in general, but arguing that one rarely used weapon system is equivalent to an entire mech class is sorta comparing apples to oranges.

To be entirely fair, lights aren't meant for straight up combat. They're support units. Scouts. Light-hunters. They really don't fit in what MWO has turned into. They fit a lot better into combined arms games (MWLL for example) where the roles are a lot wider and having a fast unit to cap points, deal with infantry or light vehicles, or provide light fire support is entirely viable and even necessary. MWO lacks the role warfare for lights to really fit into the game. Some can fill fast fire support roles like the Panther, but the "scouting", "capping", and "light hunting" roles are pretty much useless or nonexistent in MWO.

Horseman, on 15 July 2018 - 03:02 AM, said:

In the reality of an assault mech, if you're alone and too far from your teammates to receive support, then you're dead. Whether you intentionally split from the team or your team deliberately left you to die, you're a slow, massive target and will suffer heavy damage if the enemy team spots you simply because they can't afford to let you regroup with your teammates.

I'm arguing that a lone unsupported mech has to either be very mobile (which assaults are not), or it's a dead mech walking. Changing torso mobility would not affect that, your lone and unsupported assault would still be a fire magnet for the enemy team's ranged mechs.

You don't need to be nascaring straight for the cap zone as long as your team's fastest mech gets there long enough for the rest of you to start shooting. Since the cap is stopped if you scratch any ofthe capping mechs, dropping an arty strike on the cap zone also works as a delaying strategy.
And no, you don't all have to be escorting the DWF, just maintain LOS/LOF to his position so that you can provide fire support if he needs it.
Or you could bring one LRM mech (even a Trebuchet would do) and train the 100-ton puppy to press R when engaged by enemy lights.

Sure, if you're a lone assault vs the entire enemy team you're dead. Any lone mech in more than a 2v1 situation is pretty much 100% dead unless it gets support soon. But this isn't the topic of the discussion. Nice attempt to shift it though. The topic of this discussion is if an assault has to fight a light alone, it shouldn't be a nearly risk free kill for the lights actually small enough to leg hump and utterly disappear out of view of most assaults. The point you're arguing now isn't even the point of this thread.

While a few more degrees of torso pitch won't save an assault if it's being picked apart at range by a bunch of HLL Hellbringers, it will give the assault a much more reasonable chance of dealing with a light mech trying to leg it. It will also help them fight on uneven terrain a bit better. The Atlas only has 16 degrees of torso pitch. It pretty much is unable to fight on anything other than level ground.

PGI could also just give us the "Leg camera" that's been in previous MW games instead. Hell, anything that helps assaults actually see the ankle biter before it tears both of their legs off in a barrage of MG fire.

[HammerMaster]

Since knockdowns are probably never coming back (this was great balance vs bad piloting not just light) pitch needs to be looked at. Lights already have a great advantage in speed and position. Hugging is just a flat out EXPLOIT since there is ZERO downside to the perpetrator.

[ACH75]

Buffing Assaults agility and armor is a must...

Considering Lights are out of their canonic roles and assaults should be RARE in canon too we can consider limiting both classes to 2 units on quickplay (format 2/4/4/2)