377 replies to this topic

[Vlad Ward]

I feel that the group-only queue has outlived its usefulness in 3052 Mechwarrior Online.

When the segregation between Group and Solo queues was originally implemented, MWO was running with a version 1.0 matchmaker without all the bells and whistles we have today. New players were running up against groups of 8-12 players in coordinated builds on teamspeak together and getting facerolled. No one wanted to keep playing when they knew they could drop into a match only to see 12 AS7-D-DCs rolling up over the ledge in Frozen City.

There is no longer any real danger of this happening today.

With the implementation of 3/3/3/3, it is no longer possible for large groups to strongarm their way through solo players and smaller groups by throwing 12 Assaults or 12 Lights at them. Even if one team contains a 12-man and the other a smattering of smaller groups/solos, neither team will be vastly outweighed by the other.

Likewise, the successful implementation of in-game VOIP has negated the tactical advantage of groups being able to communicate via Teamspeak. Now, anyone can call targets or spot enemies without being forced to type while dodging autocannon rounds.

Most importantly, the implementation of PSR will help dramatically with ensuring that teams consist of players of roughly equivalent skill levels. This means that brand new players won't be running up against large groups unless those groups, themselves, consist of players with approximately Tier 4 ratings. On the other side of the coin, it also means that Tier 1-2 players who drop solo can be used to fill in gaps in Tier 1-2 teams which lack a full 12.

Removing the restriction on group/solo queues is the best way to ensure that the matchmaker has the largest possible player pool to draw from, resulting in the best possible matches for everyone.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 21 August 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I'unno...

I can see the merits...

But in the CW queue, I see groups roll over teams of all solos.

Hell, I've been in 6-mans that rolled the opposition 48-10 and our 6 guys wound up with 40 of the 48 kills and only accounted for 2 of the deaths.

The coordination in well oiled groups is just a huge force multiplier that MM, PSR, 3/3/3/3, voip, etc just doesn't seem to account for.

[Kell Morgan]

How high are you right now? A team of 12 vs a team of pugs..... How do you think that's going to end? Teamwork over VOIP is deadlier than an entire team of direwhales. Even teams of 10 and 2 are deadlier than 3 groups of 4 in group que. Now imagine adding poor pugs into that mix.

[EgoSlayer]

If people actually used the in game VOIP it would remove the teamspeak advantage of groups, but sadly that doesn't happen. And groups still have the advantage of creating a team that complements each other's mechs, and other advantages as well so I don't see the need for the group queue to go away.

[Appogee]

Large groups continue to have a tremendous advantage over smaller groups, through their ability to focus fire and execute a coordinated strategy together.

It would be interesting to see the data of how often a team with smaller groups beats the team with the largest group. I suspect it would be 'hardly ever'.

Edited by Appogee, 21 August 2015 - 10:29 PM.

[Triordinant]

As long as the solo queue remains solo only, whatever's done with the group queue won't affect the vast majority of MWO players. However, if groups are allowed in the solo-only queue, most MWO players will simply quit playing. Of course, PGI could try it and see what happens. After all, it's the only way to be sure.

Edited by Triordinant, 21 August 2015 - 10:30 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 21 August 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

I'unno...

I can see the merits...

But in the CW queue, I see groups roll over teams of all solos.

Hell, I've been in 6-mans that rolled the opposition 48-10 and our 6 guys wound up with 40 of the 48 kills and only accounted for 2 of the deaths.

The coordination in well oiled groups is just a huge force multiplier that MM, PSR, 3/3/3/3, voip, etc just doesn't seem to account for.

There is currently zero matchmaker in Community Warfare. Players are thrown at each other in a first-come first-served buffet line. This means that active league teams (which tend to play in groups) are being thrown against newer and casual players all the time.

Unfortunately, without a significant increase in CW population, this isn't likely to change any time soon. I'm speaking strictly in terms of "Normal" queue here.

Kell Morgan, on 21 August 2015 - 10:23 PM, said:

How high are you right now? A team of 12 vs a team of pugs..... How do you think that's going to end? Teamwork over VOIP is deadlier than an entire team of direwhales. Even teams of 10 and 2 are deadlier than 3 groups of 4 in group que. Now imagine adding poor pugs into that mix.

This is largely negated by PSR, or will be once it has gathered enough data to start functioning properly. If your 12 pugs are running up against a top tier comp team, it's because they're all top tier players themselves and will be able to use their in-game comms effectively.

EgoSlayer, on 21 August 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

If people actually used the in game VOIP it would remove the teamspeak advantage of groups, but sadly that doesn't happen. And groups still have the advantage of creating a team that complements each other's mechs, and other advantages as well so I don't see the need for the group queue to go away.

It is true that large premade teams will be able to build towards one kind of strategy another while solos and smaller groups will not. However, a lot of the advantage of this is negated by 3/3/3/3. While it's possible to throw together a 12-man that's all LRM boats with a few NARC Cheetahs or something, you're generally not going to see a lot of success with that kind of setup. And anything else is really just making sure everyone takes decent mechs, isn't it?

Edit: Likewise, small groups and solos may be more motivated to use the in-game VOIP if they see a large group on the other team. I know I've played some excellent solo games with people using comms effectively when they feel the need to do so.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 21 August 2015 - 10:36 PM.

[Xetelian]

Groups of 2 would be awesome.

[Vlad Ward]

Appogee, on 21 August 2015 - 10:28 PM, said:

Large groups continue to have a tremendous advantage over smaller groups, through their ability to focus fire and execute a coordinated strategy together.

It would be interesting to see the data of how often a team with smaller groups beats the team with the largest group. I suspect it would be 'hardly ever'.

In my experience, the result has always come down to "Who has the better players?"

It's rather unsatisfying in the end, but I've never seen any amount of teamwork overcome a gap in individual player skill. Whether it's a few solid solo players leading CW pugs to victory over a particularly weak 12-man, or a highly skilled 4-man keeping pace with a 12 from much lower rated unit, pilot skill trumps just about everything.

I've never really seen many high level strategies used effectively in the pub queue level, group queue or otherwise, but solo players can use VOIP now to focus fire and spot targets. I feel that matching players by tier will be far more effective than matching by group size, which is what the group queue does now.

The important thing I feel I may have left out of the OP is the fact that the population of the group queue is currently very small. This is a source of massive frustration for casual players who try to drop in groups with their friends, because the matchmaker is currently throwing them up against significantly stronger teams in its attempts to make a match without using any solo players to fill in gaps.

Several other players have already created threads in the past couple days bemoaning the apparent lack of PSR effectiveness because the only hardcoded limitation in the current group matchmaker is "Thou Shalt Not Include Solos" - and therefore everything else, from 3/3/3/3 to PSR, is fair game if it lowers wait times.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 21 August 2015 - 10:43 PM.

[Appogee]

Vlad Ward, on 21 August 2015 - 10:34 PM, said:

It is true that large premade teams will be able to build towards one kind of strategy another while solos and smaller groups will not. However, a lot of the advantage of this is negated by 3/3/3/3.

Nope. And I saw a good example of this just last night.

My group of 6 came up against a 12-man on Alpine. They executed an interesting and different strategy, other than the usual hill push, and we lost 12-6.

Three matches later, we came up against them again, once again on Alpine. So we knew what they would do. I used VOIP to tell the 6 PUGs on our team what the enemy would do. We came up with a counter strategy, and we positioned ourselves in right place to negate the enemy's strategy.

However, most of the 6 non-unit guys on our side basically ignored the counter strategy, and we lost the match again.

VOIP and 3/3/3/3 does not negate the inherent advantages of a 12-man.

Vlad Ward, on 21 August 2015 - 10:42 PM, said:

In my experience, the result has always come down to "Who has the better players?"

Sure, it's a big factor. But it doesn't always decide the outcome.

My favourite victories in MWO have been when my team has, on occasion, beaten teams with much better players, by executing a clever strategy that caught them by surprise.

Edited by Appogee, 21 August 2015 - 10:50 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Appogee, on 21 August 2015 - 10:44 PM, said:

Nope. And I sw an example of this just last night.

My group of 6 came up against a 12-man on Alpine. They executed an interesting and different strategy, other than the usual hill push, and we lost 12-6.

Three matches later, we came up against them again, once again on Alpine. So we knew what they would do. I used VOIP to tell the 6 PUGs on our team what the enemy would do. And we positioned our own 6 players in the right place to negate the enemy's strategy.

But most of the 6 non-unit guys on our side basically ignored the counter strategy, and we lost the match again.

VOIP and 3/3/3/3 does not negate the inherent advantages of a 12-man.

Er, well, there are certain things you just can't help. People not listening is one of them. Ideally, however, those people who don't listen and thus perform badly will end up in lower tiers and won't be matched with you against strong teams in the future.

Otherwise, your situation is actually a perfect example of what I mentioned above.

Currently, the group queue population is so small that PSR is basically ignored in favor of slotting groups together to find matches. This means that smaller groups are at serious risk of being thrown way out of their skill range. Do you think your teammates would have ignored you if every player in that game was of roughly the same skill level? It's possible, but I think it would be less likely. Even the psychological effect of knowing the guy giving orders is on your level is pretty huge.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 21 August 2015 - 10:51 PM.

[Kjudoon]

So... Make it all like cw?

Not just no but insert favorite derisive epithet here No.

Solo, Lance and company queue. Or just force all 5plus groups into cw only

[One Medic Army]

I'd love to see 2 man groups moved to the normal queue, and probably 3s maybe even 4s as well. Of course, if you move 2-4 to the solo queue then you're pretty much stuck with 5+7, 6+6, or 12 for a team in group queue, so group queue would die.

Still I don't see how 2-4 man groups vs 12man groups is any more fair a 2-4man group vs PUGs with VOIP.

Putting anything more than a 4-man group into the normal queue would be a bad idea though. It's a shame CW can't take over for the group queue.

[Rahul Roy]

Who would benefit from removing group queue?

Edited by Rahul Roy, 21 August 2015 - 11:32 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

Kjudoon, on 21 August 2015 - 10:56 PM, said:

So... Make it all like cw?

Not just no but insert favorite derisive epithet here No.

Solo, Lance and company queue. Or just force all 5plus groups into cw only

Wait, what?

This is the exact opposite of CW queue. The CW queue has no matchmaker at all. The normal queue has 3/3/3/3 and PSR.

One Medic Army, on 21 August 2015 - 11:08 PM, said:

I'd love to see 2 man groups moved to the normal queue, and probably 3s maybe even 4s as well. Of course, if you move 2-4 to the solo queue then you're pretty much stuck with 5+7, 6+6, or 12 for a team in group queue, so group queue would die.

Still I don't see how 2-4 man groups vs 12man groups is any more fair a 2-4man group vs PUGs with VOIP.

Putting anything more than a 4-man group into the normal queue would be a bad idea though. It's a shame CW can't take over for the group queue.

The problem right now is that pretty much anyone who tries to play casually in group queue is screwed. The population is so low that Tier 3-4 groups are being thrown against T1-T2 because it's the only way to get a game started.

Don't forget, a 7-man group can currently only be filled by a 5-man or a combination of a 2-man and a 3-man. You can't use a group of 4 at all because it would require eating a solo. This severely restricts the Group Matchmaker, and basically screws everyone.

Rahul Roy, on 21 August 2015 - 11:17 PM, said:

What would be the benefit of removing the group queue?

A significantly greater population for the matchmaker to draw from when finding games for a group. Right now, both 3/3/3/3 and PSR are relatively ineffective in group queue compared to solo queue, so it's difficult for many players to have a good time there.

I don't think it's good to have players choose between an equitable matchup (solo queue) and playing with friends (group queue). We should be able to have both, and I think the matchmaker has advanced to the point where we can do this without significantly inconveniencing anyone.

[KinLuu]

Horrible idea.

The solo-queue was one of the best things that ever happened to this game. IMHO it is the only reason, that this game is still here at all.

[Telmasa]

I just don't see a benefit to removing group qeue. At the very least it's an alternative to the, uh, situation CW is in currently. (or in a more positive spin: it's training for CW. lol)

[El Bandito]

EgoSlayer, on 21 August 2015 - 10:26 PM, said:

If people actually used the in game VOIP it would remove the teamspeak advantage of groups, but sadly that doesn't happen.

It will not remove it completely. Even if there was heavy VOIP usage, Pugs would never be able to follow orders/comms as fast or as efficiently as players from a single unit.

[Triordinant]

Vlad Ward, on 21 August 2015 - 11:27 PM, said:

I don't think it's good to have players choose between an equitable matchup (solo queue) and playing with friends (group queue). We should be able to have both, and I think the matchmaker has advanced to the point where we can do this without significantly inconveniencing anyone.

Are you advocating allowing groups into the solo-only queue? Or merging the solo queue and group queue which amounts to the same thing? Think well before you answer.

[Kjudoon]

If you forcibly mix solo and group queues without size limits you may as well not have a mm because average group PSR will hide real skill and we are back to the same crap that depopulated CW. Group queue should be capped at 4 and allow an opt in from solo queue for those who think they are hardcore and wanting to prove it.

Cw should be large group central.