11 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

I'll just make this short and sweet:

It's stupid that TAG is visible.
/thread

Okay, okay, I'll expand on this a little bit...

With the release of the Arctic Cheetah, Shadowcat, and CTF-0XP, the playing field has just become completely saturated with ECM cover. We've had plenty of complaint threads as a result, and before I go any further, I just want to say:

"This has absolutely nothing to do with LRMs, LRM-counters, or LRM balance. I will briefly explain why you should not be worried about that changing much, so please don't get offensive/defensive about LRMs, because this thread is about TAG, not LRMs, despite the two systems commonly being used together."

So the field is completely saturated with ECM. Light mechs have little to no role aside from complimenting the team's direct fire capabilities while running fast, and role warfare in general is non-existent. Why not make one small change that can fix a lot of these issues without creating a giant shift in balance?

Here's a simple proposal:
- Make TAG invisible for normal and heat vision, but VISIBLE in night vision.

Q: Why would this work?
A: Because lights need an actual scouting job, and with the prevalence of ECM on the battlefield, they don't really have any way of transmitting an enemy team's position without using VOIP, TS, or text chat. Running up and placing a UAV is risky and often gets shot down immediately, and attempting to transmit targets via tag is next to suicide as the entire enemy team can see the laser and quickly identify the source. As night vision is the least used vision mode and has a lot of drawbacks, most players tend to avoid using it.

Q: What about missiles? Won't this make them OP?
A: Not exactly. Right now with TAG and target decay, unless the TAG equipped mech is not very good at keeping a steady hand, you're more than likely going to suspect somebody is tagging you after you hear the missile warnings anyway, in which case you look for the laser beam and narrow down where it's coming from. This wouldn't change that mechanic at all. The only thing that's different is when you suspect you might be getting tagged, instead of looking for a thin red laser, you just switch to night vision where it will be immediately visible.

Q: What's the point then?
A: The point is so TAG can be used by scouts for things OTHER than missile support. So scouts can spy and relay enemy mech information and movement to their team without being immediately given away. To give TAG use in the competitive scene where teams can employ their scouts to cut through enemy ECM fields. And lastly, to ensure there is a means for the enemy team to still visibly spot the TAG laser if they suspect it's being used.

Another possible option would be to implement 2 distinct firing modes to the TAG laser, switchable just like ECM:

Target Painting
- Invisible
- Cannot be used for missile locks.
- Only displays target box and map position (no weapon/damage readout).

Missile Guidance
- Visible
- Works as it does now.

Considering we still don't have switchable LBX ammo, I have my doubts about having 2 separate firing modes. I think the original proposal is less complicated to implement, provides more depth, and ensures balance is not drastically altered while at the same time giving much needed depth and roles to scouts.

Edited by Aresye Kerensky, 02 September 2015 - 11:49 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Its not a bad idea at all but NARC can do what you are proposing. I would really like to see TAG always on as a small improvment and some kind of improvements to NARC as well. BAP unless ECM stacking is nerfed needs love to.

A topic about NARC possible improvments(havnt even looked at this myself, never mounted it) and ECM vrs BAP would be more interesting. ECM vrs BAP is not balanced at all.

AMS needs looking at also.

Edited by Johnny Z, 02 September 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Alek Ituin]

They should just remove ECM stacking.

Equipping ECM should make you immune to the effects of other friendly ECM, such that if your ECM fails inside a pocket of ECM Mechs, you still get lit up like a christmas tree.


Also, I like this idea. TAG toggle and this are good stuff.

Edited by Alek Ituin, 02 September 2015 - 01:36 PM.

[Johnny Z]

When Tag and the rest are all figured out then maybe missiles need to be added to the mix again.

[Alan Davion]

The only problem I see with your proposal Areseye, is using night vision to find the laser.

Seeing as most of the maps we have are predominately day time maps, using night vision on those maps, like Alpine for example, would be as foolish as using thermal vision on Terra Therma, you'd be blinded and you still wouldn't be able to see the TAG laser.

I do agree that the TAG laser should be invisible, and there should be a vision mode that could be used to find it if you suspect you're being lazed. There's plenty of light-spectrum to be used, I'm sure PGI could find a way... If they actually cared.

The problem is, as some people have pointed out in other threads, PGI has been given plenty of great suggestions and ways to implement them, and have done exactly nothing with them. All the flak that PGI has gotten this past year or so is well deserved, and until they start listening to the community again, they'll continue to get more and more flak on what could be a great game if they'd step up and start doing what they say they're going to do.

[R0B0TULISM]

A very similar thought occurred to me a few weeks ago, the only difference being that only BAP equipped mechs should be able to see the TAG laser.

[LordNothing]

ive been saying this for years. tag gives away position of scouts. so does that ecm disruption message on your radar.

i actually liked the way tag worked in MWLL. it was invisible to non team members, unless you were in light amplification mode (beam is just a hud projection to help aim).

Edited by LordNothing, 02 September 2015 - 04:18 PM.

[Anyone00]

Also having a ton worth of Arrow IV homing missiles that had to be directed to an enemy mech with TAG as an consumable would be nice (likely a significant balancing headache though).

[Aresye]

LordNothing, on 02 September 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:

i actually liked the way tag worked in MWLL. it was invisible to non team members, unless you were in light amplification mode (beam is just a hud projection to help aim).

Part of what inspired me to create this topic was in fact MWLL's tag system

We would use an Elemental/BA with a TAG that would designate stationary targets for our Aerospace pilots to Fire Bomb

[LordNothing]

Aresye Kerensky, on 02 September 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

Part of what inspired me to create this topic was in fact MWLL's tag system

We would use an Elemental/BA with a TAG that would designate stationary targets for our Aerospace pilots to Fire Bomb

ah the memories.

[Vlad Ward]

The fact that lasers are visible at all on zero atmosphere maps like Vitric and HPG is kinda funny.

This'd be cool.