49 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Hotthedd, on 25 August 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

I realize what the "meta" min/max builds are.

I'm saying that they are "meta" because they are the easiest to hit (lasers).
PPFLD is still the most lethal. (But it takes more practice)

Even if one masters the art of having a perfect projectile lead every time, lasers still have the advantages of higher alpha strike damage per ton (waaaaay higher), much lower tonnage requirements (especially matters for mediums and lights), and overall versatility (they work in all situations, excluding certain short-ranged ones). If you're one of the 10 people who cares about CW, then never running out of ammo is also a nice trait.

Let's look at, say, the AC/10...since its ammo got buffed, I think that the new norm for ammo is 2 tons per AC/10 (used to be 3), possibly 2.5. So, that makes our AC/10 have an effective weight of 14-14.5 tons. For that same weight, I would much rather equip 2 Large Lasers and some Double Heatsinks (according to Smurfys, if I used 4 DHS with 2LL you would take 3 minutes to overheat...lol). You just get more bang for your buck that way, really.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The issue here isn't just not having enough ammo, its potential damage to weight. Energy weapons are potentially infinite in their damage and lighter while ballistics have set maximums and massive weights.

[Ordin Hall]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 August 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

no thanks. I prefer to have to aim a little.

Your tryhard attitude has nothing to do with balance.

[Rhaythe]

Ordin Hall, on 25 August 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

Your tryhard attitude has nothing to do with balance.

It's not being a tryhard to prefer gunplay of one style over another. Some of us actually prefer more surgical aiming and ammunition conservation as opposed to spray-and-pray tactics.

[Hotthedd]

FupDup, on 25 August 2015 - 10:08 AM, said:

Even if one masters the art of having a perfect projectile lead every time, lasers still have the advantages of higher alpha strike damage per ton (waaaaay higher), much lower tonnage requirements (especially matters for mediums and lights), and overall versatility (they work in all situations, excluding certain short-ranged ones). If you're one of the 10 people who cares about CW, then never running out of ammo is also a nice trait.

Let's look at, say, the AC/10...since its ammo got buffed, I think that the new norm for ammo is 2 tons per AC/10 (used to be 3), possibly 2.5. So, that makes our AC/10 have an effective weight of 14-14.5 tons. For that same weight, I would much rather equip 2 Large Lasers and some Double Heatsinks (according to Smurfys, if I used 4 DHS with 2LL you would take 3 minutes to overheat...lol). You just get more bang for your buck that way, really.

None of what you say is incorrect, I was merely stating that PPFLD weapons are more lethal than hit-scan weapons by their very nature. You are making excellent points as to why the laser vomit part of the meta exists, however Gauss Rifles are still part of the "meta", and the more lethal part of it. Also, there IS a trade-off already in that energy weapons are much hotter than their ballistic counterparts. 2LL+4DHS = 3 minutes to overheat? Okay. How long for 1 GR?

Now, if ballistics (A/Cs) were to all become burst-fire, reducing their PPFLD, I could see an argument for upping ammo, but only slightly.

[FupDup]

Hotthedd, on 25 August 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

None of what you say is incorrect, I was merely stating that PPFLD weapons are more lethal than hit-scan weapons by their very nature. You are making excellent points as to why the laser vomit part of the meta exists, however Gauss Rifles are still part of the "meta", and the more lethal part of it. Also, there IS a trade-off already in that energy weapons are much hotter than their ballistic counterparts. 2LL+4DHS = 3 minutes to overheat? Okay. How long for 1 GR?

The Gauss specifically works well with lasers because it has extreme velocity (synchronizes with hitscan lasers nicely) and basically no heat, along with being more alpha-focused than DPS (just like lasers are).

Compared to those 2 LL, the Gauss however is a bit heavier (rifle + 3 tons of ammo expected = 18 tons) and explodey.

All of that being said, I don't think the Gauss should be used to assess the effectiveness of all PPFLD, because it's probably the overall best gun of that type (and one of the best guns overall).

Hotthedd, on 25 August 2015 - 12:41 PM, said:

Now, if ballistics (A/Cs) were to all become burst-fire, reducing their PPFLD, I could see an argument for upping ammo, but only slightly.

I consider several IS AC's to be mediocre even with PPFLD...if they lost that attribute, their compensation buffs would probably have to be more than just slight.

[Johnny Z]

This should be an Inner Spere only buff. Weaker weapons = weaker ammo and ligher ammo maybe. This would go a long way to evening the two sides.

As an equalizer this isnt a new idea.

[Davers]

Night Thastus, on 25 August 2015 - 06:05 AM, said:

I agree. If they doubled armor/structure values, THEN added quirks on top of that, it makes ballistics really useless.

In the lore, 1-2 tons of ammo was sufficient in battle. I've really rarely seen builds that carry more than one, honestly.

TTK is far lower in BT than it is in MWO.

FlipOver, on 25 August 2015 - 06:02 AM, said:

Instead of all that, why don't just get rid of inst-convergence?

If it hasn't happened by now...

[Bishop Steiner]

Ordin Hall, on 25 August 2015 - 11:58 AM, said:

Your tryhard attitude has nothing to do with balance.

neither does your lack of skill. carry on.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Maybe I am a bad, maybe I am just one of those crazy balanced build players, but I have never needed more than three tons of ammo for any single weapon. It is not because I die quickly, it is because the game is close to over and everyone is dead or close to it by the time I do run out of ammo. Spending more than three tons of ammo per weapon in a normal match and still having lots of armored 'Mechs to shoot at is a case of L2Aim, L2BackUpWeapons, or L2PlaceAmmo. This coming from someone who has run unoptimized, non-meta, balanced builds since CB. I have done groups, CW, and solo and still come away with the same two lessons, more than two tons of ammo per weapon and there is dependence on that weapon, more than three tons and there is an overdependence on that weapon.

Players with ammo issues not build related need to L2ConserveAmmo.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 25 August 2015 - 03:21 PM.