39 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Screech, on 31 August 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

What exactly is the ECM stopping you from doing within 90m? You are seriously complaining about your inability to notice a giant stompy robot less then 90m away from you by blaming ECM? Get off the Doritos your shirt is a mess.

+1 also how can an ECM be within 90m and you not notice them even from behind?
at that range your HUD will flash and you'll get low signal, at that point you know Enemy ECM is close,

[Nightmare1]

Frankly, I think the upcoming nerfs to ECM are problematic enough. That being said, I would be willing to see ECM nerfed back to the way it was in MW4 in exchange for passive sensors from PGI.

Andi Nagasia, on 31 August 2015 - 03:05 PM, said:

+1 also how can an ECM be within 90m and you not notice them even from behind?
at that range your HUD will flash and you'll get low signal, at that point you know Enemy ECM is close,

Agreed. In fact, one of the biggest weaknesses of ECM is the fact that it announces your presence when you get too close. When I run my Pirate's Bane or COM-2D, I'll actually switch it off when I'm creeping up behind a Mech to prevent the ECM from giving me away.

[Mystere]

I forgot to add that in this neck of the woods:

Something A Player Does Not Like = Broken

[Alan Davion]

Nightmare1, on 31 August 2015 - 04:02 PM, said:

Frankly, I think the upcoming nerfs to ECM are problematic enough. That being said, I would be willing to see ECM nerfed back to the way it was in MW4 in exchange for passive sensors from PGI.

Agreed. In fact, one of the biggest weaknesses of ECM is the fact that it announces your presence when you get too close. When I run my Pirate's Bane or COM-2D, I'll actually switch it off when I'm creeping up behind a Mech to prevent the ECM from giving me away.

I still do not believe this range reduction is a nerf, and I can't believe that other people think it is.

A nerf, to me, implies a reduction in a given items effective use in the game, for instance, ECM's ability to prevent a lock on from your sensors until the ECM mech is either... Hit by a PPC, within range of a BAP in order to allow your sensors to acquire a lock, or within about 50 meters so your sensors can actual target it without the use of a BAP.

This range reduction may reduce the ECMs effective range, but it doesn't do a damn thing to it's effective use. It's still just as powerful, i.e. broken, as it's been from the beginning, and as I've said several times so far, I think it will just cause more people to bring more ECM mechs into the game at the expense of other, more fun mechs.

Granted this will probably only happen in tiers 1 through 3, tiers 4 and 5... Well I don't think I need to say more than that, do I?

stjobe, on 31 August 2015 - 02:30 PM, said:

The missile code has been broken since design. At least in part because of this, ECM has also been broken since design.

PGI, in their infinite wisdom, don't want to change the broken missile code, but since they've introduced several new ECM 'mechs, it has gotten to a point where almost all weight classes on both sides have at least one ECM chassis, and therefore even the masterminds at PGI realizes ECM actually is broken and needs a change.

But they still don't want to change its mechanics, so what they do is change a single number in an XML file to change the radius from 180 to 90 meters, and think this will fix ECM.

I don't have the proper words to describe how insane this sounds to me.

ECM needs a complete rewrite, as does the missile code (for one, two disparate systems shouldn't have to share their lock-on code, nor should targeting and lock-on share the same code).

I've written about how I feel a closer-to-lore missile system could work before; the gist of the idea is a reworked lock system, where each SRM tube or group of five LRM tubes lock individually, and once they fire their missile, they lose lock and have to re-acquire it. SRMs and LRMs (but not SSRMs) can be fired at any time (even without hard lock) and those tubes that have no lock will just fire straight at the target reticule.

In exchange for losing lock after each firing, the launchers gain the ability to dead-fire as described above, and more importantly fire-and-forget capability. I.e. once you've locked on to a target, you will hit it (terrain permitting). How many missiles will hit will be affected by LoS, Artemis, TAG, Narc, ECM, AMS, and so on.

Locked LRMs would have a high arc as they have currently, but dumb-fired ones should have a much shallower arc, almost like SRMs.

This means that SRMs and LRMs basically will work as SSRMs do now, and SSRMs won't fire unless all tubes have a hard lock (thus becoming the ammo-conserving tech they are supposed to be - not the "better missile" tech they are now).

MRMs, if we ever get them, would be like our current SRMs (i.e. always dumb-fired, can't lock, can't fire-and-forget).

ECM, on the other hand, should not hard-counter missile locks; it should only delay it (and possibly reduce the number of missiles that do hit).

stjobe, I don't remember if I've commented on this before, so I'm doing it now. That idea is literally a million times better than the current system we have.

Someone get Bishop in here and get him to tweet Russ this idea.

[Rushmoar]

TWIAFU, on 31 August 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

When you equip BAP, you do just that.

So, equip BAP if ECM is a problem. If that is to much to do, try telling your team's ECM mechs to change modes.

Simple solution, boom.

Lorian Sunrider, on 31 August 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

Not if there are multiple ECM's.

The game is broken when there are multiple mechs under each others ECM bubbles.

Oh oh, wait a minute. This is the part I do not get. A counter to ecm is a counter. So what gives. This is what I think is the biggest problem to ecm and what makes ecm so op.

So if there are 2 ecm mechs in an area, I need to carry both BAP and UAV. The stacking of ecm I think is a broken game mechanic. Is this a part of a TT rule? But now that ecm will have a 90m range in the near future, ecm stacking might not be an issue at all and it might be very situational.

[Troutmonkey]

BAP should cut through any and all ECM units in range. The 1 BAP > 1 ECM thing is balls. Same goes for tag.

[Khobai]

Everyones forgetting that ECM shouldnt even be giving stealth in the first place.

Thats always been the problem because the benefits of stealth are exceedingly greater than the cost of 1.5 tons.

[Nightmare1]

Alan Davion, on 31 August 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

A nerf, to me, implies a reduction in a given items effective use in the game.

This range reduction may reduce the ECMs effective range, but it doesn't do a damn thing to it's effective use.

Reducing the effective range reduces the effectiveness of ECM in the sense that it cannot be used to shield groups as easily. That is a nerf. It's as simple as that.

Insisting that by reducing the range of something you are not influencing its effectiveness at all is non sequitor. A reduction in range is a reduction in effectiveness if not on the micro level than at least on the macro level. That, by your own definition, constitutes a nerf.

If you continue to insist that it does not, then you are being hypocritical within the bounds of your own personal definitions.

Khobai, on 31 August 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Everyones forgetting that ECM shouldnt even be giving stealth in the first place.

Thats always been the problem because the benefits of stealth are exceedingly greater than the cost of 1.5 tons.

I've always said that I'd be okay with ECM getting nerfed back to MW4 gameplay if PGI would give us passive sensors.

The problem is that ECM in this game is a poor substitute for such sensors. It's trying to be more than it needs to be simply because PGI won't give us a feature that's been around for a while now.

[Johnny Z]

Ecm stacking has to go. I was successfully fighting a Arctic Cheddar on the galaxy map vrs a 12 man. Lock successfull, hes 30 meters way, directly in front of me, all of a sudden no lock.(had BAP for my two pathetic SSRM 2's)He had called his other exploiting easy mode Arctic Cheddar buddy over. Fine ECM with 90 meter range. Not fine making all lock on weapons AND COUNTERMEASURES USELESS.

If this isnt workable then some other improvements to countermeasures soon please.

I try to run my Wolverine on the galactic map with mixed success and have since stopped using it. It has 2 Ac 5's and 2 SSRM 2's with BAP. The two SSRM's and the one ton of ammo and the BAP are for the most part completely useless. The two AC 5's with ammo take up everything else and lots of armor has been shaved off. This Wolverine with dual AC 5 alpha of 10 yes 10 has to compete with Omni mechs with alphas of 50 to 100 hitscan to add insult to injury and this Wolverine back up weapons of 2 pathetic SSRM's are useless most of the time.... Oh and to top this all off this Wolverine is running an XL so it goes down easily, when an Omni mech with the exact same damage is up and running.

Edited by Johnny Z, 31 August 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[MechaBattler]

TWIAFU, on 31 August 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

When you equip BAP, you do just that.

So, equip BAP if ECM is a problem. If that is to much to do, try telling your team's ECM mechs to change modes.

Unless there are more than one of them. Then all you have a 1.5 ton paperweight.

[FightingFetus]

The hilarity of both of these made me laugh

Cathy, on 31 August 2015 - 01:38 PM, said:

Its not a cloak now, a cloak makes it invisible, no matter how it effects the all ectronic targeting you can still see it point your weapons at it and hit it

*face palm*

wow, this went totally over your head... Seriously did you even understand what I was saying in the OP?

NO **** it isnt a cloak, THATS MY WHOLE POINT... The enemy Mech is still standing there clear as day.. If a 50 ton Mech is standing 10m directly behind me, REGARDLESS IF MY COCKPIT IS FACING IT OR NOT, sensors in my mech would be able to detect that an enemy is directly behind me. (EVEN with today's technology, let alone 1000 years from now)

*facepalm*

Screech, on 31 August 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

What exactly is the ECM stopping you from doing within 90m? You are seriously complaining about your inability to notice a giant stompy robot less then 90m away from you by blaming ECM? Get off the Doritos your shirt is a mess.

THATS EXACTLY WHAT IM COMPLAINING ABOUT.. LOL ... BECAUSE ECM IS THE EXACT CAUSE OF MY " inability to notice a giant stompy robot less then 90m away from you" ... This has nothing to do with situational awareness whatsoever. I know my HUD will distort at that range. And it's not about the ECM 'stopping me" from anything within 90m, it's the fact that the mech should be revealed on the map (for my whole team) if an ECM mech gets with 90m, because at that point, the mech would be detected regardless by visual sensors (instead of radar).

Lets say I'm in the front line hill-humping and there are 2 teammates behind me.. An enemy flanks around and parks directly 5m behind me. On my radar I only see 2 allies behind me.. I get shot in the back, look at my radar, I figure my ally accidently did it (you know this happens).

So you're telling me, that it MAKES PERFECT SENSE, that there is a 50 ton HOT hunk of metal 10m behind me and somehow my mech wouldn't be able to detect it? As I said, my camera phone could VISUALLY detect that mech and place the enemy mech's position on my map with TODAY's technology...

ADD TO THAT, the fact that my 2 ally teammates are staring RIGHT AT THE ENEMY... Yet you're telling me that that enemy's location info couldnt be relayed to my team and I?

EVEN WORSE, let's say an enemy ECM runs into a pile of 8 ally mechs... (Of course he wont last long) but there is no reason why that mech would somehow remain completely undetected.. And without a TAG or NARC, SURE, the ECM should still prevent TARGET LOCKS. But it's position should at least be revealed on the map if it is within 90m of another mech. That's all I'm saying.


So as I've said, try using your brain and actually think about LOGIC and what an ECM does. This isn't about "learn to play better" or "equip BAP or Seismic Sensors" .... And don't say "oh well if you had teammates on voice comms they could TELL you there was an enemy there" which is completely besides the point that my MECH would very easily be able to detect it itself... You shouldn't have to bring 'something' to detect the location of a "giant stompy robot less then 90m away from you" ..

Is this a fix to every problem with the ECM system? Not at all, this is just one issue with ECM, yet IMO is the one that breaks immersion the most because of its complete lack of logical functionality.



.

Edited by FightingFetus, 02 September 2015 - 09:57 AM.

[Lugh]

Lorian Sunrider, on 31 August 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

Not if there are multiple ECM's.

The game is broken when there are multiple mechs under each others ECM bubbles.

The game is NOT broken when there are multiple mechs under ECM bubbles. They are really not helping each other at that point and any ECM beyond the first is countering BAP/CAP...

If you are too lazy to assess how many ECM mechs are in your vicinity and where they are, and can't be bother to move away from one or both of them to facilitate locks, then YOU are the problem. Not ECM, Not BAP/CAP, not game mechanics. YOU not doing what you need to do to get it done is the problem.

Also if you weren't jamming to tunes during matches you could HEAR the mechs that are closer than 100m with your ears...

The are also visual indicators of dust shaking off structures when mechs go stomping by as well. If you would care to notice any of this, it would be very hard for anyone to sneak up on you ever again. However, you want the game to play itself for you.

[Lugh]

FightingFetus, on 02 September 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

The hilarity of both of these made me laugh


wow, this went totally over your head... Seriously did you even understand what I was saying in the OP?

NO **** it isnt a cloak, THATS MY WHOLE POINT... The enemy Mech is still standing there clear as day.. If a 50 ton Mech is standing 10m directly behind me, REGARDLESS IF MY COCKPIT IS FACING IT OR NOT, sensors in my mech would be able to detect that an enemy is directly behind me. (EVEN with today's technology, let alone 1000 years from now)

*facepalm*


THATS EXACTLY WHAT IM COMPLAINING ABOUT.. LOL ... BECAUSE ECM IS THE EXACT CAUSE OF MY " inability to notice a giant stompy robot less then 90m away from you" ... This has nothing to do with situational awareness whatsoever. I know my HUD will distort at that range. And it's not about the ECM 'stopping me" from anything within 90m, it's the fact that the mech should be revealed on the map (for my whole team) if an ECM mech gets with 90m, because at that point, the mech would be detected regardless by visual sensors (instead of radar).

Lets say I'm in the front line hill-humping and there are 2 teammates behind me.. An enemy flanks around and parks directly 5m behind me. On my radar I only see 2 allies behind me.. I get shot in the back, look at my radar, I figure my ally accidently did it (you know this happens).

So you're telling me, that it MAKES PERFECT SENSE, that there is a 50 ton HOT hunk of metal 10m behind me and somehow my mech wouldn't be able to detect it? As I said, my camera phone could VISUALLY detect that mech and place the enemy mech's position on my map with TODAY's technology...

ADD TO THAT, the fact that my 2 ally teammates are staring RIGHT AT THE ENEMY... Yet you're telling me that that enemy's location info couldnt be relayed to my team and I?

EVEN WORSE, let's say an enemy ECM runs into a pile of 8 ally mechs... (Of course he wont last long) but there is no reason why that mech would somehow remain completely undetected.. And without a TAG or NARC, SURE, the ECM should still prevent TARGET LOCKS. But it's position should at least be revealed on the map if it is within 90m of another mech. That's all I'm saying.


So as I've said, try using your brain and actually think about LOGIC and what an ECM does. This isn't about "learn to play better" or "equip BAP or Seismic Sensors" .... And don't say "oh well if you had teammates on voice comms they could TELL you there was an enemy there" which is completely besides the point that my MECH would very easily be able to detect it itself... You shouldn't have to bring 'something' to detect the location of a "giant stompy robot less then 90m away from you" ..

Is this a fix to every problem with the ECM system? Not at all, this is just one issue with ECM, yet IMO is the one that breaks immersion the most because of its complete lack of logical functionality.



.

You are talking about target info sharing systems that no longer exist in the MWO universe.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech

In the early Succession Wars, all parties deliberately sought to destroy the enemy infrastructure. Amidst the overall ruthless mayhem that obliterated entire worlds, factories, shipyards and star-ships were prime targets. Humanity as a whole literally bombed itself back into a proverbial 'stone age,' and the Successor Lords realized too late that the damage was beyond repair. On many worlds, the developmental level had fallen back to the level of 20th-21st century science and technology, or even to primitive tribal communities without space flight, subsisting on farming and manual labor with medieval technology levels.

So there are legit reason WHY you can't do just that.

[FightingFetus]

Lugh, on 02 September 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

The game is NOT broken when there are multiple mechs under ECM bubbles. They are really not helping each other at that point and any ECM beyond the first is countering BAP/CAP...

If you are too lazy to assess how many ECM mechs are in your vicinity and where they are, and can't be bother to move away from one or both of them to facilitate locks, then YOU are the problem. Not ECM, Not BAP/CAP, not game mechanics. YOU not doing what you need to do to get it done is the problem.

Also if you weren't jamming to tunes during matches you could HEAR the mechs that are closer than 100m with your ears...

The are also visual indicators of dust shaking off structures when mechs go stomping by as well. If you would care to notice any of this, it would be very hard for anyone to sneak up on you ever again. However, you want the game to play itself for you.

Yeah, you make an excellent point about how the mech can be detected.. Therefore, this "detection" would be done by the sensor suite installed on my mech and the enemy ECM should then be placed on the map. This is 1000 years in the future, you think their computer software couldn't handle that?

Placing a red triangle on the map for a mech within 90m is a FAR cry away from "the game playing itself for you" lmao, what a joke.


.

Edited by FightingFetus, 02 September 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[FightingFetus]

Lugh, on 02 September 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

You are talking about target info sharing systems that no longer exist in the MWO universe.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech

In the early Succession Wars, all parties deliberately sought to destroy the enemy infrastructure. Amidst the overall ruthless mayhem that obliterated entire worlds, factories, shipyards and star-ships were prime targets. Humanity as a whole literally bombed itself back into a proverbial 'stone age,' and the Successor Lords realized too late that the damage was beyond repair. On many worlds, the developmental level had fallen back to the level of 20th-21st century science and technology, or even to primitive tribal communities without space flight, subsisting on farming and manual labor with medieval technology levels.

So there are legit reason WHY you can't do just that.

I'm not talking about being able to lock ECM targets within 90m, I'm talking about them simply being revealed on the map..

This is basic technology that can be done today and would have nothing to do with advanced Lostech. Plus it doesn't even matter if there is some TT lore-based reason. Things should be adapted as needed to make sense in a real-time video game, and there is no logical reason why a mech's position couldn't be determined if it is within 90m and have their position relayed to my team.


EDIT: Think of it this way. If Mechs actually existed, you'd better believe the pilot would have some way of seeing behind his mech. Whether it's a simple, TINY little window, or a small fiber-optic camera, there would definitely be a way for a pilot to see behind him. Therefore be able to detect an enemy ECM, therefore have their position relayed to my team...

Either give me 90m map detection range, or give me a rear-view camera.

.

Edited by FightingFetus, 02 September 2015 - 11:45 AM.

[Tatula]

One thing ECM does -- makes all the hard work the map makers did go to waste. I find myself using heat vision on many maps because that's the only reliable way to see the enemy mechs since there are so much ECM around these days. So all the beautiful scenery and colors fade to gray. We're back to the old "blue" vision mode.

[Screech]

FightingFetus, on 02 September 2015 - 10:36 AM, said:

Either give me 90m map detection range, or give me a rear-view camera.
.

How about I tell you to turn your torso more, it is pretty much just as effective I have found. You are way too addicted to the Dorito and it will limit your effectiveness and enjoyment of the game until you take steps to address it.

[Event Horizon]

Bad idea.

ECM is easy to counter and it is being reduced to 90 meters soon. It is easy to deal with.

[FightingFetus]

Screech, on 02 September 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

How about I tell you to turn your torso more, it is pretty much just as effective I have found. You are way too addicted to the Dorito and it will limit your effectiveness and enjoyment of the game until you take steps to address it.

You have been the least useful person in this thread by far. Continue trying to be funny with your Dorito jokes. You are so inventive and original!

How about I tell you to contribute with an actual idea instead of useless jabs that were already predicted to come from the trolls in the OP... Or do you just like living down to the lowest expectations of the internet?

[FightingFetus]

Eugenics, on 02 September 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

Bad idea.

ECM is easy to counter and it is being reduced to 90 meters soon. It is easy to deal with.

It doesnt matter how "easy it is to deal with" or "turn your torso more" LMAO.. You guys just cant understand the point that IT IS ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS AND MAKES NO SENSE.

This is supposed to be a sim... In what sort of real-world scenario would something so massive be constructed without the ability to see or detect something directly behind the mech?

AGAIN, give me a rear-facing camera view option, OR allow me to see it on the radar if it is within a minimum range.

I am STILL waiting for somebody to try and rationalize to me why ECM (counter target-lock equipment, which is what ECM is supposed to do, PREVENT TARGET LOCKS) functions much more closely to a "stealth" type of system. Sure at a distance an ECM would also prevent radar detection, but at close range it would easily be detected.

Edited by FightingFetus, 02 September 2015 - 01:27 PM.