1142 replies to this topic

[Enaris]

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Here's a possible 3 queue solution:

1. Solo Queue - it stays exactly the way it is, no changes. PGI is unlikely to change it because it's MWO's best performing queue of all time, according to Russ Bullock. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

2. Small Casual Group Queue - this is where new players group up. It's also where veterans can train newbies and where current players can introduce their friend/sibling/spouse/coworker/etc. to the game. Group size limited to 3. PGI could put a limit of only one Tier 1 or Tier 2 player per group (the Trainer) if they wanted.

3. Unit Queue - this for the minority of MWO players who like to organize, train and compete. Group size 4 and above. It could even be the CW queue after they fix CW.

I've considered this (small group and unit queue), and it's an appealing answer in many ways, except it brings us back to problem one.

We'd be continuing to subdivide the player base, and that would make it harder and harder to find matches. Maybe if solos were allowed to "fill in" on #2 and #3 it would bridge that problem, but I'm a bit iffy on that. (I like letting solos in, but to play filler for two separate group queues would likely be too much for that to fix.) The only way I could see this working is if most of the other "walls" are torn down (mode selection, class restriction and so forth.)


On a deeper note, I think that people need to step back and consider something. Most of the people who are being very loud here are insistent on having the play of the game on their terms, even if it hurts other groups.

Those who prefer big groups are often saying something which can be translated as "I want to play in big groups, and if small group people don't like it, they need to grow up... or go get friends!"

On the other hand, those who prefer small groups are pretty much saying "break up the big groups so that we can have fun, and if it takes away from the fun of big group guys, well that's just too *blip* bad."

In other words, people are arguing on the basis of saying "I want the rights of my kind of players to be elevated above the rights of those who prefer the other."

As long as both sides come into the debate with that kind of mindset and focus, than threads like this will continue to generate more heat than light.

Quite frankly, both groups of players have legitimate points of view. It's asking a great deal of people who have played this game using large scale groups to abandon that style of play. Yes, it will drive some of them out of the game, and reduce the interest of others.

On the other hand, it also is asking a great deal of people who prefer to play only with close friends to be the sacrificial lambs of the group queue, and to say "well, go make more friends."

The goal should not be to elevate the small over the big, or vice versa, but to find a way where everyone gets something, even if nobody gets everything.



[ETA: Just so that people have a sense of where I tend to land in the question. Personally, I'm a small group player. Generally, I'll play with 1-2 others, and honestly dislike teaming up in a formed team setting with people I don't know. There are reasons for that, and part of that is probably my own personal neuroses, but in the end, I find "get more friends or deal with the pain" to be a pretty glib and obnoxious answer.

On the other hand, I certainly see that telling people who have played in groups of 5-12 for well over a year "sorry, your preferred style of play must die," is pretty obnoxious as well. Maybe we'd have been better off if they'd never lifted the cap past 4, but that is water under the bridge at this point.]

Edited by Enaris, 05 September 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[Sadist Cain]

Russ Bullock, on 03 September 2015 - 03:43 PM, said:

As you can see I am willing to try and keep the any group size thing around a while longer if we make a few other changes.

1) possibly allow solo's to opt in - so long as it doesn't pull to many solo queue should still perform well.

As folk have said this is a brilliant idea however it would need a serious look at how to encourage better teamwork and coordination between solo and group players.

A lot of small groups tend to be on their own teamspeak server and talk to the other 1-3 people they're playing with. At the same time many people speak a different language or are simply unable to use voip at certain times.

I believe you'll get better match quality with such a system if you have a look at the command and communication structure in game as well.
Things like the command wheel and the ability for players to create role based lances of their own would greatly aid in the integration of solo players into the group queue.
Otherwise I fear we'll see people complaining about match quality as has happened before.

[Wilburg]

Russ Bullock, on 03 September 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

Very roughly but looking at Match Maker Command Center right now:

Perhaps 22% of the games are group queue and about 75% of those games are groups of 4 or less.So around 5-6% of MWO matches have groups of 5+

Hi,
one question regarding those numbers. If it´s only 5-6% in groups of 5+, how can these be so gamebreaking?
Second one regarding 1/1/1/1: while I get the point for 12 players with a 3/3/3/3, why do you consider it satisfying to eliminate the possibility to train with two mates in one weightclass?
Thx

Edited by Wilburg, 05 September 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Here's a possible 3 queue solution:

1. Solo Queue - it stays exactly the way it is, no changes. PGI is unlikely to change it because it's MWO's best performing queue of all time, according to Russ Bullock. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

2. Small Casual Group Queue - this is where new players group up. It's also where veterans can train newbies and where current players can introduce their friend/sibling/spouse/coworker/etc. to the game. Group size limited to 3. PGI could put a limit of only one Tier 1 or Tier 2 player per group (the Trainer) if they wanted.

3. Unit Queue - this for the minority of MWO players who like to organize, train and compete. Group size 4 and above. It could even be the CW queue after they fix CW.

This isn't a viable solution. Adding MORE queues doesn't help anything - you're cannibalizing existing queues to do that. Assuming you're not affecting the solo queue, this results in two separate queues made out of the Group Queue's already limited population, making the problems worse.

[Jacob Side]

Back in the date of the 4 man limit, I'd hop on Teamspeak see 4 man groups already formed up and I'd log back out never bothering to load up MWO.

Go to back to 4 man and I won't load the ever game again. I've bought ever top tier pack so this is how strongly I feel on this topic, you will not get another dime if 4 man limit or this 1/1/1/1 limit goes in.

[Triordinant]

Wintersdark, on 05 September 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

This isn't a viable solution. Adding MORE queues doesn't help anything - you're cannibalizing existing queues to do that. Assuming you're not affecting the solo queue, this results in two separate queues made out of the Group Queue's already limited population, making the problems worse.

There are already 2 group queues: Group and CW. No new queues are being created. It's more like the two existing group queues are being renamed and implemented better.

[Fire for Effect]

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Here's a possible 3 queue solution:

1. . If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

wise words... remember these....

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

2. Small Casual Group Queue - this is where new players group up. It's also where veterans can train newbies and where current players can introduce their friend/sibling/spouse/coworker/etc. to the game. Group size limited to 3. PGI could put a limit of only one Tier 1 or Tier 2 player per group (the Trainer) if they wanted.

an obscene absurdity, putting new players a group queue any group queue is not a wise idea. The best would be if training groud for new players is free for a month or so, so you can grab the new man and show him a few things. Someone in ANY group queue who can barely steer and is unable to hit anything will be a burden and what is much worse he will not learn anything in the hectic of battle... well we had group size limitation before and it was terrible during that time an insane amount of people stopped playing.

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

3. Unit Queue - this for the minority of MWO players who like to organize, train and compete. Group size 4 and above. It could even be the CW queue after they fix CW.

ok... how do you fill 9,10 and 11 people groups to 12?

Mizeur, on 05 September 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

It's never been about Elo or PSR. It's always been about how matchmaker uses the rating, plus 3 game modes, plus 4x3, plus the population being split into 2 queues and CW, plus group size in group queue, and now 3 server regions. Elo worked fine, they should've just asked for tiering the rating out into buckets.

One problem is mech and pilot ability are not made into a coherent methamatical figure that the MM can use.
Use Mech Combat Potential times Pilot Ability to match teams!

A tier 1 pilot in a Locust is simply not equal to a tier 1 pilot in a Mad Cat.

Edited by Fire for Effect, 05 September 2015 - 10:42 AM.

[Triordinant]

Fire for Effect, on 05 September 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:

The best would be if training groud for new players is free for a month or so, so you can grab the new man and show him a few things.

A dedicated Training Queue only for new pilots and their trainers? That works for me.

[Fire for Effect]

Enaris, on 05 September 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

On the other hand, those who prefer small groups are pretty much saying "break up the big groups so that we can have fun, and if it takes away from the fun of big group guys, well that's just too *blip* bad."

the problem is:
WE HAD THAT!

2 years ago the group size was limited to 4. It did not work still the same whiners got waxed and a massive immigration from this game started. Many many left this game and not all came back whe the group size was finally relaxed.

People keep argumenting about the evil evil big groups if you look more closely it was not the big evil enemy 12 man group why they lost but a multitude of other reasons (some some post before from me). Instead of trying to improve themselfs they massively try to sour the game for the others in the insane idea that then it will be better, if only 4 people groups are allowed.

Big surprise we had tried that years ago (against massive protests of veteran players who exactly predicted what happend afterwards) and it failed miserably on top most veterans said "bye and did not bother to play anymore" definitely not all came back.

Again its not the group size that makes the MM seemingly fail, Mech Combat potential and Pilot skill are not used to make a coherent number that can be used to measure up both teams, this is the failure at the most basic level.

[Fire for Effect]

Wilburg, on 05 September 2015 - 09:52 AM, said:

Hi,
one question regarding those numbers. If it´s only 5-6% in groups of 5+, how can these be so gamebreaking?
Second one regarding 1/1/1/1: while I get the point for 12 players with a 3/3/3/3, why do you consider it satisfying to eliminate the possibility to train with two mates in one weightclass?
Thx

thx I did not find the source of the numbers again.

As you see its exactly 5,5% of players in groups larger than 4. Believing that might be the cause of problems of roflstomps is simply absurd. Of these 5,5% of player if these are in a group it even furthermore reduces the possibility to meet em in group queue the larger the group is. (two 6-man groups will be met two times more often than a 12 man group...)

So best solution is to introduce single players to group queue if they want (give em extra bribe money to compensate for higher risk) and introduce up to 4 man groups to the solo queue again.

CW is a nonissue since its in its current state boring as hell for groups AND the monetary rewards are simply to low to bother. Any pilot will make DOUBLE that amount in any other queue.

[Rayne Vickers]

Fire for Effect, on 05 September 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

So best solution is to introduce single players to group queue if they want (give em extra bribe money to compensate for higher risk) and introduce up to 4 man groups to the solo queue again.

CW is a nonissue since its in its current state boring as hell for groups AND the monetary rewards are simply to low to bother. Any pilot will make DOUBLE that amount in any other queue.

I tend to agree with this statement, though I don't think 4 mans need to be in the solo queue, a good 4 man can do too much "damage" there. 2 mans should be fine, 3 man is going to be a thing, I can see it either being in solo OR group, and it's hard to tell which side to err on for that, it might depend on the PSR situation of the 3, that's something Russ and team would be better equipped to evaluate.

Edit: it also goes without saying the MM needs to *try* to match groups (i.e. if there's a 2 man on one team, there needs to try to be a 2 man on the other team. That may be something it has to give on at times, but it should at least try.

Edited by Rayne Vickers, 05 September 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[Rayne Vickers]

Josef Koba, on 05 September 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

In a perfect world I'd like there to be 12 man groups prowling the queue. But I no longer run in the group queue at all because I drop almost exclusively with one other friend.

If you drop with ANYONE, currently, you drop in the group queue. Solo Queue is currently ONLY single players.

[Triordinant]

Fire for Effect, on 05 September 2015 - 10:50 AM, said:

So best solution is to introduce single players to group queue if they want (give em extra bribe money to compensate for higher risk) and introduce up to 4 man groups to the solo queue again.

The vast majority of solo players would quit MWO altogether if groups were allowed back into the solo queue. PGI already knows the solo queue is almost perfect exactly the way it is now and they said so. Whatever else happens in the other queues, the solo queue will not change.

[Rayne Vickers]

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

The vast majority of solo players would quit MWO altogether if groups were allowed back into the solo queue. PGI already knows the solo queue is almost perfect exactly the way it is now and they said so. Whatever else happens in the other queues, the solo queue will not change.

They also know they're kind of on a massive downward spiral right now, I don't think putting 2 mans and POSSIBLY 3 mans in the solo queue is going to destroy it. Hell, half the players think there are groups in the solo queue already...

[anthony nevers]

We were told that CW was for the 12man units, it was MADE for them. To be fair solo players and smaller groups don't fare as well in CW as the 12man groups. Change the groups to 4 max, let them have CW and let the rest of us have the other game modes.

I don't know why the 12mans think they are entitled to have what they want and the expense of the rest of us. Then they act like petulant children with threats and name calling when it seems they will not get their way (See posts above).

Edited by anthony nevers, 05 September 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[Triordinant]

Rayne Vickers, on 05 September 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:

They also know they're kind of on a massive downward spiral right now, I don't think putting 2 mans and POSSIBLY 3 mans in the solo queue is going to destroy it. Hell, half the players think there are groups in the solo queue already...

Where is the official word from PGI regarding this "massive" downward spiral? We have the official word saying the solo queue is almost perfect the way it is now.

[Rayne Vickers]

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 11:54 AM, said:

Where is the official word from PGI regarding this "massive" downward spiral? We have the official word saying the solo queue is almost perfect the way it is now.

I was talking about the game as a whole. Solo Queue works fine as it is, but Group Queue/CW is kind of on a downward spiral. There's no "official word" of it (and there never would be until it was already too late, if even then, if you've ever watched an MMO close or a business fail) it's just a feeling I think. A lot hinges on what happens with Steam, how many players they retain from that influx, and how much it does/does not upset the current crop of players. A very delicate balancing game has to be played from here on, we know IGP wasn't equipped to do it, we now have to see if PGI Is.

[Triordinant]

Rayne Vickers, on 05 September 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

I was talking about the game as a whole. Solo Queue works fine as it is, but Group Queue/CW is kind of on a downward spiral. There's no "official word" of it (and there never would be until it was already too late, if even then, if you've ever watched an MMO close or a business fail) it's just a feeling I think. A lot hinges on what happens with Steam, how many players they retain from that influx, and how much it does/does not upset the current crop of players. A very delicate balancing game has to be played from here on, we know IGP wasn't equipped to do it, we now have to see if PGI Is.

So the solution to a "downward spiral" in the queues where maybe 5-15% of MWO players play is to make changes to an almost perfect queue where the vast majority play? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's clearly a conflict between large, organized competitive groups and the small casual groups that don't want to be forced to play against the big groups. PGI is not going to drag their satisfied customers into a fight between two groups that together make up a small minority.

In case you weren't here for it, there WAS a massive downward spiral a couple of years ago. What fixed it was the creation of the solo-only queue where no groups of any size were allowed.

[Enaris]

anthony nevers, on 05 September 2015 - 11:53 AM, said:

We were told that CW was for the 12man units, it was MADE for them. To be fair solo players and smaller groups don't fare as well in CW as the 12man groups. Change the groups to 4 max, let them have CW and let the rest of us have the other game modes.

I don't know why the 12mans think they are entitled to have what they want and the expense of the rest of us. Then they act like petulant children with threats and name calling when it seems they will not get their way (See posts above).

This is exactly the point I was driving at a bit ago. It's easy to throw out the accusation that the large group players are feeling "entitled to have what they want at the expense of us."

However, the flip side is also true. Getting rid of the 5+ man groups would be at the expense of those who like them. So, you're really saying you want things on your terms, at the expense of others.

Also, remember that while the number of 5+ groups is a limited % of the group queue, that's also a bit misleading. After all, a 12 man group is 6x as many people as a 2 man, so large groups will represent a larger % of the absolute group queue population than a simple headcount of groups would imply.

[Fire for Effect]

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

The vast majority of solo players would quit MWO altogether if groups were allowed back into the solo queue. PGI already knows the solo queue is almost perfect exactly the way it is now and they said so. Whatever else happens in the other queues, the solo queue will not change.

so with the introduction of very small groups those loners quit because suddenly they have something that they can point their finger instead of themself for their miserable performance? possible

likely? nope the numbers PROOF that groups cannot be a problem since only 16% drop in small groups. round it up to 20% that means that in every match are on average 4 I repeat FOUR people in groups. If you think that small amount is a problem then you completely ignore the repeated failings on the matchmaker that have a much larger impact.
(cicada equal to Stormcrow; tier 1 in a terrible locust equal to tier 1 in a Mad Cat)

Make a cohesive Mech Combat Potential times pilot skill as basis for MM!

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

small casual groups that don't want to be forced to play against the big groups.

you cite the numbers yourself yet you fail to acknowledge that
SUCH A SMALL NUMBER CANNOT BE A PROBLEM!

4 man groups have been tested against massive objections from the community and it did not work it just resulted in a massive player loss...

Triordinant, on 05 September 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

In case you weren't here for it, there WAS a massive downward spiral a couple of years ago. What fixed it was the creation of the solo-only queue where no groups of any size were allowed.

oh it did not solve anything, stomps were as often as before the average PUG just had no groups to blame for their own inability.

Edited by Fire for Effect, 05 September 2015 - 12:27 PM.