15 replies to this topic

[Scout Derek]

Resistance 2, or Orgins IIC?

That remains to be seen, but for now, it seems some are unhappy with how things are turning out.

Clan tech> IS tech

This is a given fact, and no matter how much we push the ideas of quirks or buffing, the fact will always remain.

So what does this mean?

It means that for another 1-3 years, we won't be mixing clan and IS tech anytime soon, which, who knows(?), May solve those balancing problems as we so to speak (Arctic Cheetah DPS > Firestarter DPS, Atlas DPS < Dire Wolf DPS, etc.)

For example, how much better do you think the atlas would perform if it could sport 2 clan UAC 20? Even one? Or how about a king Crab with, possibly 4 clan UAC 10s?

How about a locust or a firestarter with a clan XL? A dragon?

Targeting computer, clan XL, clan endo and ferro on a Raven 3L?

I'll leave these thoughts here so we can ponder how it could go, but more than likely we'll see when Orgins IIC arrives on December 11th.

So, is it really the mechs as we say, or is it really, the tech?

[Y E O N N E]

Some 'Mechs have inherently better geometry for combat in this game. That much has nothing to do with tech. A Jager has superior geometry to a Hellbringer. A Blackjack has superior geometry to a Shadow Cat. A Commando has superior geometry to a Mist Lynx.

However, the geometry advantage isn't always enough.

The HBR, for example, has weapons that are mounted high enough that the disadvantage in location to the JM6 is irrelevant when the 'Mech also gets a huge advantage in both range and firepower to offset the difference.

Now, if I could slap a C-XL, C-ERSL, C-ERML, and/or C-MPL onto a Jager? It would be incredibly powerful. Too powerful. Hell, I could get two IS AC/10 on there with four C-ERML and extra DHS. That's devastating! A BJ-1X, even sans quirks, with six C-ERML and a C-XL 295 is also absolutely devastating.

That said, sometimes the tech isn't enough, either. The MLX is up a creek because its arms are so huge and so under-protected that its entire arsenal is in critical peril the moment you drop onto the field. You can slap four C-ERML on it and that should be pretty potent, but they are too low and too slow.

Also, true story: the Timberwolf would be a massive piece of sh*t if it weren't for the C-XL. Its sides are some of the easiest to hit in this game and it isn't very good at shielding its CT unless you are piloting a short 'Mech.

[Yellonet]

In all honesty I don't give a damn about exactly where the problem lies.
But the facts remain, this game is very poorly balanced when it comes to IS vs Clan and balance is one of the most important things in competitive multiplayer games.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Scout Derek, on 07 September 2015 - 04:11 PM, said:

Resistance 2, or Orgins IIC?

That remains to be seen, but for now, it seems some are unhappy with how things are turning out.

Clan tech> IS tech

This is a given fact, and no matter how much we push the ideas of quirks or buffing, the fact will always remain.

So what does this mean?

It means that for another 1-3 years, we won't be mixing clan and IS tech anytime soon, which, who knows(?), May solve those balancing problems as we so to speak (Arctic Cheetah DPS > Firestarter DPS, Atlas DPS < Dire Wolf DPS, etc.)

For example, how much better do you think the atlas would perform if it could sport 2 clan UAC 20? Even one? Or how about a king Crab with, possibly 4 clan UAC 10s?

How about a locust or a firestarter with a clan XL? A dragon?

Targeting computer, clan XL, clan endo and ferro on a Raven 3L?

I'll leave these thoughts here so we can ponder how it could go, but more than likely we'll see when Orgins IIC arrives on December 11th.

So, is it really the mechs as we say, or is it really, the tech?

Well... for Resistance 2.

Mauler adds... a mech that can do 6AC5... poorly. Or 4AC5 and 2PPC amusingly. Or some combination of AC20 and missiles and lasers I suppose.

Black Knight... if it doesn't have excellent quirks and good hitboxes will end up sucking light the Grasshopper.

Crab... is either going to be really hard to kill like a stalker or made of tissue paper like the dragon. Really that tends to be the case for all the non-humanoid mechs.

Wolfhound... well quirks are going to make or break most of the variants. However the one that mounts an XL315 can mount 5 MPL and that XL315. Which means 165kph with speed tweak. Which will be interesting.

Highlander IIC: Clan XL means not having to worry about ST loss. Hard points aren't terrible either

Orion IIC: Not having to worry about ST loss fixes the orion's biggest problem IMO.

Hunchie IIC: Dual High mounted Gauss... think the Grid Iron is an annoying little sniper? yeah... Or the dual UAC20... or... in short it adds a ton of options to the clan battlefield
Jenner IIC: Well... PGI decided that hardpoint inflation was a good idea... so... 6cSRM4 for the 1.5x the power of an oxide with 2 tons left for JJ or ammo. The 4E 2M one can easily fit 4 cSPL and 2cSRM6 to hit hard or 4 erML with 2 SSRM4 and BAP for light hunting (super sarah jenner).

So... of the 2 packs... Origins IIC wins out IMO depending on how much customization they allow.

As far as general balance is concerned, I think it's combination of hitboxes (which can be fixed with armor and structure quirks typically) and the tech differences.

Rather than mixed tech, PGI needs to be striving for a dynamic balance between IS and clan tech.

Between the two tech bases the current biggest problems are clan XL, the half weight SRMS, clan gauss, large clan streak launchers, and the fact that clan energy weapons are 100% better than their IS counter parts (interestingly enough, if you give IS energy weapons about a 20% buff a la wolverine 6k the mech becomes competitive with clan equivalents)

Of these clan XL is the biggest problem IMO. Say clan XL mechs don't get speed tweak and move at 2/3 or 1/2 speed when a ST is lost but STD engined and IS XL engined mechs do. That'd reduce the speed advantage of a timberwolf between say a 4/6 STD engine 75-85 ton IS mech from almost 20kph to 10kph. The slower IS mech would have similar amounts of weaponry and there'd be less of a difference in mobility.

For certain mechs like the dragon, catapult, or Jenner that have very large CT it might not be so unreasonable to give them a couple extra CT slots and let the XL engine move a ST critical from each side to the new slots in the CT.

Clan energy weapons could hit harder at longer range range but have a much faster damage fall off and run hotter than they currently do. Maybe IS energy weapons could have their damage fall off until 3x the ideal range vs 1.5x for clan. For an IS ML that might give you 3 damage at 450 meters before going to zero at 700 or so.

Clan SRMs could fire out in pairs of 2 in a ripple fire fashion similar to clan LRMs and have a longer cool down time.

IS gauss could lose the charging mechanic while the lighter clan version retains it.

Enough rambling... point is PGI has options that will do more for creating a permanent dynamic balance if they are brave enough to take them and risk pissing off the "different is bad" part of the player base.

[FupDup]

It's a mixture of some mechs having bad inherit design along with technology issues. Some mechs get one or the other, some get both, some get neither...

[Alan Davion]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 07 September 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Well... for Resistance 2.

Mauler adds... a mech that can do 6AC5... poorly. Or 4AC5 and 2PPC amusingly. Or some combination of AC20 and missiles and lasers I suppose.

Black Knight... if it doesn't have excellent quirks and good hitboxes will end up sucking light the Grasshopper.

Crab... is either going to be really hard to kill like a stalker or made of tissue paper like the dragon. Really that tends to be the case for all the non-humanoid mechs.

Wolfhound... well quirks are going to make or break most of the variants. However the one that mounts an XL315 can mount 5 MPL and that XL315. Which means 165kph with speed tweak. Which will be interesting.

Highlander IIC: Clan XL means not having to worry about ST loss. Hard points aren't terrible either

Orion IIC: Not having to worry about ST loss fixes the orion's biggest problem IMO.

Hunchie IIC: Dual High mounted Gauss... think the Grid Iron is an annoying little sniper? yeah... Or the dual UAC20... or... in short it adds a ton of options to the clan battlefield
Jenner IIC: Well... PGI decided that hardpoint inflation was a good idea... so... 6cSRM4 for the 1.5x the power of an oxide with 2 tons left for JJ or ammo. The 4E 2M one can easily fit 4 cSPL and 2cSRM6 to hit hard or 4 erML with 2 SSRM4 and BAP for light hunting (super sarah jenner).

So... of the 2 packs... Origins IIC wins out IMO depending on how much customization they allow.

As far as general balance is concerned, I think it's combination of hitboxes (which can be fixed with armor and structure quirks typically) and the tech differences.

Rather than mixed tech, PGI needs to be striving for a dynamic balance between IS and clan tech.

Between the two tech bases the current biggest problems are clan XL, the half weight SRMS, clan gauss, large clan streak launchers, and the fact that clan energy weapons are 100% better than their IS counter parts (interestingly enough, if you give IS energy weapons about a 20% buff a la wolverine 6k the mech becomes competitive with clan equivalents)

Of these clan XL is the biggest problem IMO. Say clan XL mechs don't get speed tweak and move at 2/3 or 1/2 speed when a ST is lost but STD engined and IS XL engined mechs do. That'd reduce the speed advantage of a timberwolf between say a 4/6 STD engine 75-85 ton IS mech from almost 20kph to 10kph. The slower IS mech would have similar amounts of weaponry and there'd be less of a difference in mobility.

For certain mechs like the dragon, catapult, or Jenner that have very large CT it might not be so unreasonable to give them a couple extra CT slots and let the XL engine move a ST critical from each side to the new slots in the CT.

Clan energy weapons could hit harder at longer range range but have a much faster damage fall off and run hotter than they currently do. Maybe IS energy weapons could have their damage fall off until 3x the ideal range vs 1.5x for clan. For an IS ML that might give you 3 damage at 450 meters before going to zero at 700 or so.

Clan SRMs could fire out in pairs of 2 in a ripple fire fashion similar to clan LRMs and have a longer cool down time.

IS gauss could lose the charging mechanic while the lighter clan version retains it.

Enough rambling... point is PGI has options that will do more for creating a permanent dynamic balance if they are brave enough to take them and risk pissing off the "different is bad" part of the player base.

Look to the part in bold.

PGI have said that all IIC mechs will follow the same construction rules that all IS mechs currently follow. Engine swapping and everything.

That, along with the super-powered Clan tech means the IIC mechs will in all likelihood be the most dangerous mechs on the field, save for the Dire Wolf.

[FupDup]

Alan Davion, on 07 September 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

Look to the part in bold.

PGI have said that all IIC mechs will follow the same construction rules that all IS mechs currently follow. Engine swapping and everything.

That, along with the super-powered Clan tech means the IIC mechs will in all likelihood be the most dangerous mechs on the field, save for the Dire Wolf.

I'm actually expecting the IIC mechs to have the same powerlevel as the fully-optimized Omnimechs. It makes sense if you think about it. What makes those *certain Omnimechs* so good is that they have a base chassis that is completely or almost completely min-maxed to perfection. As such, having locked components isn't a weakness or drawback at all on those mechs.

For example, the Hellbringer's XL325 is a pretty good engine for a 65 ton mech. Having Endo-Steel is mandatory on nearly everything. Clan Ferro can be fitted onto almost anything, etc...

The IIC mechs will be able to select the most optimal engine, structure, and armor types, along with having a good set of hardpoints on many variants...just like the top Omnimechs.

[Mcgral18]

Alan Davion, on 07 September 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

Look to the part in bold.

PGI have said that all IIC mechs will follow the same construction rules that all IS mechs currently follow. Engine swapping and everything.

That, along with the super-powered Clan tech means the IIC mechs will in all likelihood be the most dangerous mechs on the field, save for the Dire Wolf.

Most dangerous?

Unlikely.


Jenner will still have bad hitboxes, and be considerably less durable than the Cheetah

Hunch will be a good threat. Perhaps even give the Crow a run for it's money.

Orion will fail to beat many of the Omni Heavies

HGN IIC will most certainly not beat the Whale, and shares a shortcoming of the IS HGN without gaining the benefit. Tiny engine cap with non-Sword and Boarded hardpoints. You need to choose between your lasers ballistic. LT and RA (unlike the IS RA and RT). Can't even laserboat like the PeaceDove or Glad.

Hardpoints limit the Heavy and Assault. They can't mount Dual Gauss effectively (while they easily could given separate ballistic hardpoints).

Two good mechs, two not so great but probably not bad (likely above Mediocre).

Edited by Mcgral18, 07 September 2015 - 06:42 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Alan Davion, on 07 September 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

Look to the part in bold.

PGI have said that all IIC mechs will follow the same construction rules that all IS mechs currently follow. Engine swapping and everything.

That, along with the super-powered Clan tech means the IIC mechs will in all likelihood be the most dangerous mechs on the field, save for the Dire Wolf.

This big rebalance could change things up but as it stands now, the Storm Crow as a stick figure moving at 110 is in no danger of losing top place medium.

[Chuck Jager]

just give up on clan or IS and buying packs.
The extras for preorder still cost the same after you look at the mediocre to poor mechs.

Ala Carte or waiting for CBills and then just get premium time as needed - works out ten times better.

I love some old cars like MGs and VW Karmann Ghias, but I do not expect them to run all the time. The attachment to lore is good and bad for this game because it fills a lot of the population and has some great elements. Those elements were really balanced for the board game and culture that does not always match with the nature of online game mechanics/culture.

Even then mediocre mechs on the IS side can have far worse builds than clan and are more frustrating to level.

I do not see an easy solution to this. Other than the 1 sentence solutions we hear already.

[Elizander]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 07 September 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Black Knight... if it doesn't have excellent quirks and good hitboxes will end up sucking light the Grasshopper.

All the BK needs is some CT/ST armor/structure quirks and 10%-15% energy weapon heat reduction quirks. Beam duration would be icing but not needed.

[Yellonet]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 07 September 2015 - 06:17 PM, said:

Enough rambling... point is PGI has options that will do more for creating a permanent dynamic balance if they are brave enough to take them and risk pissing off the "different is bad" part of the player base.

I really don't think there are many of those, but "balance" is often misunderstood to mean identical.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Chuck YeaGurr, on 07 September 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

I love some old cars like MGs and VW Karmann Ghias, but I do not expect them to run all the time. The attachment to lore is good and bad for this game because it fills a lot of the population and has some great elements. Those elements were really balanced for the board game and culture that does not always match with the nature of online game mechanics/culture.

So... what you're saying is that we need to metaphorically shove a chevy small block in it so the damn thing looks like battletech but had a heart transplant so it'd run reliably and have more power?

[Armored Yokai]

I only buy mechs cosmetic or faction wise

[Chuck Jager]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 07 September 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

So... what you're saying is that we need to metaphorically shove a chevy small block in it so the damn thing looks like battletech but had a heart transplant so it'd run reliably and have more power?

FYI They put chevy engines in 70s Jags
The point and a good general rule of thumb is just because it looks and smells like the BT some know and love do not expect it to work well in this game even if the legions of fanboys say differently. This goes double for IS mechs.

[Xetelian]

I'd buy Origins IIC over Resistance 2.

I just know the HBK IIC and the JR7 IIC are going to be solid but I have reservations about the ON1 and the HGN.