52 replies to this topic

[Commander A9]

In observing how Community Warfare has evolved over time, and analyzing it from a Sun Tsu perspective, I have to say that I'm slowly finding Community Warfare getting more and more boring over time.

And this is coming from a mechwarrior as part of one of the more active units in Community Warfare.

Firstly, I utilize this video of Sun Tsu's "Art of War" as broadcasted by the History Channel:

With this in mind, I have seen Community Warfare becoming more focused on long drawn-out attrition-based games over similar map designs. This does not allow for much tactical flexibility beyond controlling how many attack what gates and when; the principle concept is the same each time: breach through the gate-that's it. There's nothing forcing the defender to leave his position, nor is there anything available to put him at risk until the gates are brought down.

Each map appears to be too similar to each other (marches up narrow passes with no option for maneuverability, even jumping) and is designed for attrition-play while encompassing a suicidal direct assault on a well-defended high-ground position. There are no open maps (beyond Grim Portico, but only AFTER penetrating the base gates) that allow a player to organize coordinated attacks that utilize maneuver warfare. The only option is a direct murderball assault right up the middle, only to either dig in at a specific grid and "trade," or breach the base and mix it up for a brawl until both sides are dead.

Sun Tsu would be appalled at such a waste of numbers and these uphill assaults-and so am I. Unfortunately, given the changes to generators, their positions, spawn point locations, and the general designs of maps that favor defensive-play, these are our only options.

If we hope to have Community Warfare become more appealing, perhaps it is time for more maps that are designed outside of base and defense play and to offer more objective-style play that favors more available tactical options and objectives to seize rather than the same old "hey diddle diddle right-up-the-middle" play that we are currently seeing.

[Dino Might]

Consider that right now, the most tactical game mode is Assault, because there is the chance to base cap. Movement around map is crucial to both be able to defend your base and concentrate firepower on the enemy. You don't know exactly where they will all be until you scout them. There are flanking opportunities, feints, pushes, advance, and retreat.

CW on the other hand is routine attrition poking across the gates, an occasional rush, and very rarely more than a one-sided stompfest. The maps are linear, the objectives are relatively unreachable until the enemy force is destroyed, so there is only one way to play it.

Now, consider that the community has been whining and moaning about Assault mode base caps ever since turrets went away again, and ask yourself...if you are PGI, do you really want to make CW anything but a linear meat grinder? It seems that is all players want these days (Conquest is least played, and Assault mode is flamed because it's not skirmish).

Edited by Dino Might, 03 September 2015 - 06:08 AM.

[Ryokens leap]

CW lost its shiny one month in.

[Nephoros Sradac]

Ryokens leap, on 03 September 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

CW lost its shiny one month in.

Well what do you expect when PGI focuses everything on pathetic IS crap, hell even this new "Concept Comstar Intercept" was ran for both IS faction right from the start..... Good to see PGI focus on the **** side of the game.

[AlphaToaster]

Commander A9, on 02 September 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

There's nothing forcing the defender to leave his position, nor is there anything available to put him at risk until the gates are brought down.

One would think that fear of being spawn camped with no terrain advantage and a guaranteed loss would be considered something. Part of the problem is players stuck in a rut trying the same failed tactics over and over because it worked that one time against a pug.

Right now those playing CW are using it to farm Cbills. So the incentive is there to draw the game out for 48 kills. Simple changes to make winning the game more lucrative promote the rushes that the community rejected. So at least this way there's some fighting that gives the defenders a chance to earn as well. Fast games don't reward the defenders as much as the attackers.

The OP is quoting Sun Tzu, but the community at large behaves closer to Keystone Cops with a sense of entitlement.

[Mystere]

Commander A9, on 02 September 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

Sun Tsu would be appalled at such a waste of numbers and these uphill assaults-and so am I. Unfortunately, given the changes to generators, their positions, spawn point locations, and the general designs of maps that favor defensive-play, these are our only options.

Well, the perennial whiners got their wish and turned CW into another version of Skirmish.

[xX PUG Xx]

AlphaToaster, on 03 September 2015 - 07:40 AM, said:

The OP is quoting Sun Tzu, but the community at large behaves closer to Keystone Cops with a sense of entitlement.

.....

TBH there's times I have the Benny Hill theme tune playing in my mind when I watch some players.

[Kira Onime]

It lost it's appeal a long time ago.

[The Flying Gecko]

What kills it for me, are the terri-bads. If you are getting scoring under 100 damage... I just... I can't even....

[JernauM]

Mystere, on 03 September 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Well, the perennial whiners got their wish and turned CW into another version of Skirmish.

Agreed. The central re-positioning of the generators was done to satisfy players who did not like having to scout and react in defense of their base, but rather wanted a predictable slugfest. This is the same sort of sentiment that wants the turrets back on Assault.

[Commander A9]

Certainly glad I'm not alone in my concerns.

[Yokaiko]

Mystere, on 03 September 2015 - 08:08 AM, said:

Well, the perennial whiners got their wish and turned CW into another version of Skirmish.

Then whined again so "defending" a counter attack involved getting a kill lead and hiding in the spawn under the super buffed dropships.

.....and the pay is to damn low.

[Deathlike]

JernauM, on 03 September 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Agreed. The central re-positioning of the generators was done to satisfy players who did not like having to scout and react in defense of their base, but rather wanted a predictable slugfest. This is the same sort of sentiment that wants the turrets back on Assault.

I would actually like proof of that. There was some strategical value in placing them outside of Omega that allows the Attackers to do stuff with.

Since the move, the Omega generators for the most part are really just there to confirm a team's domination over you as there's little to no effort in defending them (it shouldn't be that hard, unless you don't know how to).

[Knightcrawler]

Well... yeah. This was all pretty obvious from the get-go.

[gloowa]

JernauM, on 03 September 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Agreed. The central re-positioning of the generators was done to satisfy players who did not like having to scout and react in defense of their base, but rather wanted a predictable slugfest. This is the same sort of sentiment that wants the turrets back on Assault.

No, they were moved so that you can get cored by dropships when you try to get anywhere near them.

AND because it totally makes sense to prevent light rushes by replacing them with assault rushes (since they are so close you can walk between them in assault in under 15 seconds). I am certain that really improved the experience. While all that needed to be done is make ogens cappable (conquest style) and having to cap at least 2 to be able to attack omega. That way, light rush is much harder because you need to leave force to guard 2 gens, giving defenders more time to react.

[Weztside]

If we are ever going to see any kind of tactical depth in CW the maps really need to be fundamentally altered. The objectives need to be dynamic and not static considering how mobile combat in MWO is at the moment. Take rush mode in battlefield for example as it was cited as inspiration for CW many months ago. As the assaulting team advances the objective advances with them towards a location that serves as a focus point for the final moments of battle. As a result the battles feel like they are building up, leading somewhere, and will eventually come to a crescendo as a team either fails to complete the objective or succeeds. There needs to be more possible avenues of attack than option A. suicidal rush on Gate XYZ that ends at the opponents drop zone and option B. suicidal rush on gate XYZ, digging in, and engaging in attrition warfare. There also is no real incentive to take Omega considering taking a planet has absolutely no reward or meaning as of yet. More often than not the winning strategy for attackers is to breach a gate, farm the defenders until none are left, and complete the objective as an afterthought. That's all the objective is, an afterthought reserved for teams that know they can't win on kills alone. For many players the true objective in CW is to farm as many cbills as possible, second only to finding ways to entertain oneself while trying to find a match.

[Mordin Ashe]

CW neeeds reward bumo and faction changes.

Rewards are fine when you compare fighting in CW to solo drops. Then again, to get solo drops you have to wait only up to 1 minute. I regularly must wait many hours or up to 20 minutes even in prime time to get CW match. This is not EVE online, MWO isn't a waiting simulator and CW is a waiting simulator par excellence.

Factions. What is the point of having, let's say, Marik and Liao, factions that are too small to make a dent in CW and don't even participate much? CW works only when there are enough players without artificial barriers between them. Right now CW has a community that could keep CW well alive but hey, they can't fight with each other because factions and stupid rules.

PGI, your plan on attacking planets and having borders failed. There is not enough people to keep that alive. Start ignoring borders and offer the whole CW community one or two meaningful planets to fight for. Right now there aren't even rewards for holding a planet - a really grat incentive to participace in CW... Please, break some of the artificial barriers you placed and let the remaining CW communit ystick together and play together more easily.

We STILL don't have any extra incentive for solo pugs playing against 12mans. Nothing. Holding a planet it pointless - give players some reason to keep them and CW population will rise because of that. CW is fun but doesn't pay off when compared to solo drops. Too much waiting, can't fight most of players because lolish PGI restrictions... There is a lot to fix, and in 9 months CW is out it wasn't checked at all. There is something wrong here...

Edited by Mordin Ashe, 08 September 2015 - 08:12 PM.

[CptGier]

Community Warfare should become the PVE group mode.

Where each player chooses a faction, and that is the one they support. Then, rather then being PVP series of wash, rinse, repeat, same ol, same ol, rush the gates battles. Progression on the planets is done PVE but while Davion is fighting on a Steiner planet to take it, Steiner players are fighting PVE to defend it and keep it. So, your faction's players must win more then the other faction, though its done all PVE.

Rather, invading a planet or defending a planet consists of stages.

Invasion Stages:
Probing Assaults: Basically, going in, gathering intel, , sabotage missions, destroying lightly guarded Radar towers and stuff to scramble the planet. Only smaller mechs are used here. If you wish not to participate, then dont. The faction as a whole has to win a majority of the Probing assaults on the planet for the day in order to progress to the next stage.

Landing: Basically the CW we all know and dont love. Assaulting Gun positions and HPG positions to really wreck the planetary defenses. AI would have in depth, layered Defenses guarding each post, consisting of turrets, heavy mechs, bring your A Game. This is played with the current 12 players vs a large AI force defending the planet. You get 4 mechs, just as now. The faction must win a majority of assaults to progress

Assault: This stage, you head off in groups of 4 mechs(I honestly wish this game had stayed IS), and hit various assigned targets. Some are Search and Destroy, some are Exterminations, where you simply have to wipe out a force of enemies, some are assassinations, where your tasked with ambushing and destroying a top enemy mech or something. Just various different types of missions and objectives, given out randomly as your team Qs up. you must again win the majorty for the day.

Siege: if your force wins majority of the battles and makes it this far, you will be tasked with taking the capital city on the planet. This is basically another 12 man battle against a sizeable enemy force. Its done on RC, Crimson or some city map, your forces must get in, eliminate a majority of the enemies and capture thier capital building to take control.

Counter Attack: THis is a last ditch defensive effort by the enemies to kick you off the planet. If your the attackers, you are on defense, if your the defending force, you are attacking. Whoever wins here will determine if the planet swaps hands.

Taking the planets will pay alot of Cbills, give various other bonuses and benefits, maybe some loot, like MC, GXP, maybe a free mech or something, cockpit items. It would be intended that taking a planet takes several days, as each stage would playout over the course of a full 8 hours, as CW does now...

Each battle will pay the usual cbills/xp, but winning is where you get the goods.

And idk, but it seems like that would be more fun then what we have now. And MWO is an amazing PVE game, more so then a lolpha the world PVP.

Honestly, it would truly be..Community Warfare....

Edited by CptGier, 08 September 2015 - 09:43 PM.

[Carl Vickers]

CptGier, on 08 September 2015 - 09:42 PM, said:

Community Warfare should become the PVE group mode.

Where each player chooses a faction, and that is the one they support. Then, rather then being PVP series of wash, rinse, repeat, same ol, same ol, rush the gates battles. Progression on the planets is done PVE but while Davion is fighting on a Steiner planet to take it, Steiner players are fighting PVE to defend it and keep it. So, your faction's players must win more then the other faction, though its done all PVE.

Rather, invading a planet or defending a planet consists of stages.

Invasion Stages:
Probing Assaults: Basically, going in, gathering intel, , sabotage missions, destroying lightly guarded Radar towers and stuff to scramble the planet. Only smaller mechs are used here. If you wish not to participate, then dont. The faction as a whole has to win a majority of the Probing assaults on the planet for the day in order to progress to the next stage.

Landing: Basically the CW we all know and dont love. Assaulting Gun positions and HPG positions to really wreck the planetary defenses. AI would have in depth, layered Defenses guarding each post, consisting of turrets, heavy mechs, bring your A Game. This is played with the current 12 players vs a large AI force defending the planet. You get 4 mechs, just as now. The faction must win a majority of assaults to progress

Assault: This stage, you head off in groups of 4 mechs(I honestly wish this game had stayed IS), and hit various assigned targets. Some are Search and Destroy, some are Exterminations, where you simply have to wipe out a force of enemies, some are assassinations, where your tasked with ambushing and destroying a top enemy mech or something. Just various different types of missions and objectives, given out randomly as your team Qs up. you must again win the majorty for the day.

Siege: if your force wins majority of the battles and makes it this far, you will be tasked with taking the capital city on the planet. This is basically another 12 man battle against a sizeable enemy force. Its done on RC, Crimson or some city map, your forces must get in, eliminate a majority of the enemies and capture thier capital building to take control.

Counter Attack: THis is a last ditch defensive effort by the enemies to kick you off the planet. If your the attackers, you are on defense, if your the defending force, you are attacking. Whoever wins here will determine if the planet swaps hands.

Taking the planets will pay alot of Cbills, give various other bonuses and benefits, maybe some loot, like MC, GXP, maybe a free mech or something, cockpit items. It would be intended that taking a planet takes several days, as each stage would playout over the course of a full 8 hours, as CW does now...

Each battle will pay the usual cbills/xp, but winning is where you get the goods.

And idk, but it seems like that would be more fun then what we have now. And MWO is an amazing PVE game, more so then a lolpha the world PVP.

Honestly, it would truly be..Community Warfare....

I want to give you +1 but I feel it more deserves a +10

I think you could even run your idea as PvP and PvE.
Brilliant

[CptGier]

Carl, on 08 September 2015 - 09:56 PM, said:

I want to give you +1 but I feel it more deserves a +10

I think you could even run your idea as PvP and PvE.
Brilliant

Honestly, when I heard CW way back when, this is honestly more how I envisioned it...compared to what we have now. Where taking a planet was not a 1 day thing......