22 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Here's the Commando quirks from the PTS:



While some of those numbers are rather large (+80% Target Scan Time Medium Range anyone?), I have a hard time seeing it do much to make the Commando more relevant on the battlefield.

[Iqfish]

Why no weapon quirks?

[SpiralFace]

So far I haven't seen any weapon quirks for any mech.

Could be because they are trying to determine a base line with this first PTS, could be because they are nixing them entirely. Might need to ask Russ or Paul to clarify.

[stjobe]

Iqfish, on 11 September 2015 - 02:57 PM, said:

Why no weapon quirks?

No idea. There's no weapon quirks at all on the PTS as far as I've seen.

[toastybacon]

Why would you ever nerf the maneuverability of an already underperforming mech? TDK turn rate is terrible.

I think the cooling rate quirks are interesting though, puts it closer in performance to 10 true dubs.

[Queen of England]

The Death's Knell is excruciating to drive now. I'm amazed how much the decel quirk kills the handling of the mech.

[Xiphias]

TDK is definitely still going to be the best Commando. That 80% acceleration quirk is huge, it also gets some pretty massive structure quirks ~50% across the board (from stock not current quirked). It still won't be great, but overall I think it comes out okay from the pass. The mobility nerfs really aren't needed, should have buffed the others instead.

[Dirus Nigh]

stjobe, on 11 September 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

No idea. There's no weapon quirks at all on the PTS as far as I've seen.

The devs removed the weapon quirks becuase they were way out of hand. Redo balance from there.

[stjobe]

Dirus Nigh, on 13 September 2015 - 06:41 AM, said:

The devs removed the weapon quirks becuase they were way out of hand. Redo balance from there.

Sure, but as of right now we see only half the picture.

Every variant except the 1B gets a nerf called "Target Acquisition Delay +1". Weird, a light that has a hard time acquiring targets, but okay. It is supposed to be a Striker after all. What corresponding nerf does the 1B get? "Target Retention Time -1". Huh, so it loses targets 1 second faster than the others. Yay. Great thing to have on the traditionally overpowered Commando, right?

They all get various movement quirks, except the TDK that gets nerfed in that department. Why? Nobody knows.

They also get various levels of structure quirks, but the allocation of these seem rather arbitrary.

• Why does the 1B and 3A get +11 when the 2D gets only +6 and the 1D and TDK get +17?
  
• Is the 2D less sturdy than the baseline 1B/3A because of ECM?
  
• Then why is the 1D and TDK sturdier than the 1B and 3A? It can't be because of their loadout, because the 1D and 3A are the 2E/2M variants - basically the same except for one M hardpoint placement.

How can we make any judgements whatsoever about Commando variant balance without knowing the other half of the picture?

[SilentScreamer]

stjobe, on 13 September 2015 - 07:02 AM, said:

Sure, but as of right now we see only half the picture.

Very true.

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They all get various movement quirks, except the TDK that gets nerfed in that department. Why? Nobody knows.

Movement is life for commandos, when MC is injected to the PTS Monday this is definately worth testing.

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"Target Aquisition Delay +1"

This seems to be the theme. I would guess PGI is attempting to make alpha strikes less deadly by delaying targeting. At mid range this might be true, but at long range and short range I doubt there will be much change in lethality. Why was the 1B spared? Lowest potential alpha maybe? Not that its firepower is that far off when compared to just other commandos.

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How can we make any judgements whatsoever about Commando variant balance without knowing the other half of the picture?

Agree. But players tend to argue endlessly about weapon quirks and totally ignore the introduction of new movement and sensor quirks. I can see why PGI released the test as it is.

Edited by SilentScreamer, 13 September 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[stjobe]

SilentScreamer, on 13 September 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

Movement is life for commandos, when MC is injected to the PTS Monday this is definately worth testing.

Paul took his ball and went home, the PTS is shut down with no word on when it's coming back up.

SilentScreamer, on 13 September 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

This seems to be the theme. I would guess PGI is attempting to make alpha strikes less deadly by delaying targeting. At mid range this might be true, but at long range and short range I doubt there will be much change in lethality. Why was the 1B spared? Lowest potential alpha maybe? Not that its firepower is that far off when compared to just other commandos.

Making Commando alphas "less deadly"? Surely you are joking - you'd be hard-pressed to get much over 20 alpha on any Commando.

There's a reason I sometimes use the "Out of Meta Since Closed Beta" when referring to my beloved Commandos; they really, really don't need any nerfs. At all.

Also, the value of targeting (and the other InfoWar stuff) is arguable at best; we've been living with ECM-induced blindness for two years, so unless ECM also gets a major change (and no, halving the radius doesn't count as major), all the IW quirks in the world won't make up for the loss of weapon quirks.

SilentScreamer, on 13 September 2015 - 07:29 AM, said:

Agree. But players tend to argue endlessly about weapon quirks and totally ignore the introduction of new movement and sensor quirks. I can see why PGI released the test as it is.

I can't; what data were they trying to gather with only half of the 'mech quirks on there? It's impossible to judge whether one variant is going to be better, worse, or just different from the other when we don't even know if any of them are getting any other quirks.

And if they aren't, IS is well and truly fscked.

[SilentScreamer]

stjobe, on 13 September 2015 - 07:41 AM, said:

Making Commando alphas "less deadly"? Surely you are joking - you'd be hard-pressed to get much over 20 alpha on any Commando.

Please do not quote my statement out of context. I said and you quoted "alpha strikes" not specifically "commandos" as you have jumped to. Yes, it will affect Commandos, but no more than any other mech with negative sensor quirks.

[stjobe]

SilentScreamer, on 13 September 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Please do not quote my statement out of context. I said and you quoted "alpha strikes" not specifically "commandos" as you have jumped to. Yes, it will affect Commandos, but no more than any other mech with negative sensor quirks.

I don't think I quoted out of context; this is a thread about Commando quirks, in a sub-forum named "Commando".

I agree wholeheartedly with toning down alpha strikes - they have indeed gone way out of hand. But to penalize a 25-ton non-meta 'mech chassis that only ever gets four hard points because you want to tone down alphas? That's going about it in a very wrong way.

There's simply not enough alpha potential on any Commando chassis to warrant such a nerf for that specific reason.

[KraftySOT]

Yeah theres some oddities with the variants...other than that its a nice platform, but its needs at a minimum, some medium laser quirks, and SRM quirks, on the appropriate variants.

The Structure quirks dont make any sense across the variants. At the end of the day all there is to do is shoot robots. So, you have to make the Commando competitive with the 20 and 30 tonners at shooting robots.

[stjobe]

Here's the Commando quirks in a nicely formatted table:



Okay, so what conclusions (if any...) can we draw from these numbers?

First off, let's look at the variant hard points:

COM-1B: CT M, LA E, RA 2E
COM-1D: CT 2M, RA 2E
COM-2D: CT M, LA E, RA 2M, ECM
COM-3A: CT M, LA E, RA E+M
COM-TDK: LA 2E, RA 2E

The two stand-outs are the 2D with ECM, and the all-energy TDK. All the others have varying combinations of M and E hard points, with at least one M hardpoint in the CT.

So, back to the quirks.

All variants except the TDK get various large-ish buffs to mobility, so it seems PGI wants the Mando to be agile.

They also get 5% faster cooling, which is great since they can't mount more than a maximum of 9 TrueDubs - and to use all hard points AND have enough ammo you can end up with as little as 7 TrueDubs (XL195, the old maximum).

They also get buffs to structure, and while I understand that the 2D gets the least buff due to its ECM, I'm not sure why the 1D and TDK get 6 points more than the 1B and 3A.

Now the juicy bits, InfoWar quirks.

It seems that all Mandos except the 1B are going to be less than quick about targeting; they all get a 1 second nerf to target acquisition. The 1B which gets normal acquisition times, instead gets a 1 second nerf to target retention - which all the rest of them get buffs to; the 2D a remarkable 3 seconds.

All but the 1D then get various buffs to target scan time at all ranges, although the 1D gets no buff to short range scanning. The 1B does get a whopping 80% faster scan time at medium range.

So, back to the original question: What (if any) conclusions can we draw from these numbers?

I must say I have a hard time making heads or tails of it. It seems they want the chassis to be agile, tough, and fast to scan targets. But they nerf its ability to actually acquire targets.

They give the 1D and 3A wildly different quirks, which I guess might be a good thing (they're both 2M+2E, the only difference is hard point placement), but I don't really see what their intended roles are meant to be. The 3A is more agile, but the 1D is tougher. They both have a hard time acquiring targets, but the 3A at least can hold on to its target once it gets it - and it scans it 75% faster than the 1D at short range. At longer ranges, they're equal.

I don't know what the standard target retention time is meant to be, but let's hope it's longer than 1 second, or the 1B is going to be in trouble, losing targets as soon as they leave LoS.

To sum up, I have no idea what PGI intends the Commando to be just looking at these numbers.

What's your take?

[KraftySOT]

They should get 11% better heat efficiency. That would give them just about 10 truedubs. Simple solution there.

I agree with all the other points. Im thinking the mobility quirks are actually pretty cool. The TDK being a turbo accelerating speed demon, but loses the ability to use it as well other than in straight aways (lost turning and slowing).

Thats great. Setting them apart in that regard makes each one unique. No issues.

The Structure quirks are odd, and one seems punished just for having ECM, but its not like it has any punch. Making it weaker than the others doesnt make alot of sense in this case. I guess their BV metrics said the 2D was the best, because of ECM, but youre not really giving it a huge buff with structure. They should all just be the same.

The slow target acquisition is the same thing. The ECM one can keep its fast scan, but they should all target quickly. Id say messing the the scan range at long range would be the best to set them apart.

I think they also clearly need missile quirks. Range and spread. Leave the cooldown quirks gone, so were not hurting TTK (not that Commandos were exactly dominating the meta) but giving them better SRM2s and 4s is not a bad thing.

The TDK could probably use a laser quirk of some sort. Like two options. Large laser range, but more heat (carry 1) or medium laser heat eff. You can only carry 4. If you put on a LL and 3 meds, to use both, you have to give up armor or speed iirc. Youre not exactly dominating. But you would have comparable firepower to other mechs in your class.

Edited by KraftySOT, 13 September 2015 - 03:11 PM.

[John McHobo]

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What's your take?

Honest to god, the more I look over the numbers on mechquirks, the more I start to believe there is no system or reason to it. In general it looks completely random, in the case of some mechs e.g. the Commando or Locust I strongly doubt they have ever piloted the mech.

[Elbrun]

My take on this is much the same as it has been for a long time. Structure/Armor/Weapon quirks should simply be removed, they don't add to balance in any way shape or form. The Int Structure quirks here are a good example, they don't do anything but make you wonder who came up with which got what. With no weapon quirks to screw with things, and no armor/structure quirks, we might actually get a game where skill makes one mech better than another. Leave in balanced movement/turn/twist/heat management/targeting quirks to give flavor and variety.

I love the commando, nearly as much as the urby (which isn't even listed in this forum, shame shame). But giving it structure quirks won't balance it.

[Kmieciu]

No commando should ever get a negative mobility quirk. And I don't even own TDK.

Edited by Kmieciu, 15 September 2015 - 04:46 AM.

[Iain Black]

from the locust, commando, jenner, urbie and panther quirks i dont really understand what they are trying to do, but it surely Looks like they should really be all forced to piloting them for a few hours a day so they get a grip at how to effectively use them.

if you want infowar, add more UAV and arty Slots, dont take them away