35 replies to this topic

[Bilbo]

1453 R, on 11 September 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

...
Besides - if sensor systems and targeting information was so pointless, why would Radar Deprivation be considered a nigh-mandatory module on all 'Mechs?

Because you can negate all lock on weapons with minimal cover so you don't need to worry about 1.5 tons of equipment to deal with it. Never had any real effect on direct fire weapons though.

Edited by Bilbo, 11 September 2015 - 04:37 PM.

[Thunder Child]

Having just roflcoptered a Light, Medium, Heavy, and Assault through Forest Colony, I can confirm this, and only this, so far. Lights have an unmodified sensor range of 800m. Cool. Mediums have an unmodified sensor range of 600m. Okay.... Heavies and Assaults have an unmodified sensor range of 500m. Huh, so not really worse than mediums. What do all the other fancy numbers do? Preeeety much nuttin.

You've got faster or slower targeting delays, of up to a second, which won't prevent you shooting at an enemy if you see them. You've got faster or slower scan speeds, which speed up or delay paper doll info. Also doesn't prevent you from shooting the target. You have faster or slower target decay. THIS, THIS is relevant! Because suddenly, with good target decay, you can see when someone is about to duck back out of cover, if they do it quickly enough (I think the longest I saw was 5s).

So, TL:DR.

This current implementation makes almost no difference to IW. Note the Almost. Minor changes, but that's it.
Will be interesting to see if they implement modifiers to sensor RANGE and DETECTABILITY in a future PTS patch. That MIGHT make a difference.

But hey, at least they are trying something new, right?

[1453 R]

Saxie, on 11 September 2015 - 04:34 PM, said:

its 1453, of course hes going to be angry.

err passionate..?

What's that supposed to mean, huh? HUH?!

Heh, anyways.

Look...I get it, a'ight guys? The current implementation is...weird. And not very good. But first of all, that's why it's on the PTS in the first place. Second of all, yes. Functional IW is very important to me - this is my CW, and unlike the rest of you I had given up hope of ever seeing it. I damn near cheered outright when I read Paul's PTS post and damn my coworkers' reactions...and then I wander in here and see "Piranha, this sucks. Rip out this lame Infotech crap and give us back our megagigaultra 50+% weapon quirks."

Apparently that does, in fact, cause a short-circuit. Who knew.

What we need is more and better infotech, not 'rip it out'. If a Dire Whale was basically unable to share targeting information, in either direction, how would that affect its ability to read the battlefield, position properly, and apply its firepower? It'd be almost totally reliant on the scouts around it, and on verbal/written communication with those scouts, to find the enemy. That would be awesome and it would also act as a heavy curtailing of the Dire Whale's stupidiculous firepower.

Sensor range, target sharing range/speed, and other things Paul talked about that aren't in this iteration need to make it in. I want to make up for my Shadow Cat's dirt-poor firepower by being an awesome forward heavy recon element, and by being able to drop off the radar of heavier threats I can't directly outfight, disengage, reposition and ambush with ease. Furthermore, I want to actually be valuable in my lighter, less well-armed 'Mechs like Cicadas or Shadow Cats or Cute Foxes or whatever that currently get me dirty looks and Bad Language in-game because they're not Stormcrows.

If that value comes from being able to spot the enemy and keep tabs on them in a way the heavy direct-fire units on my side really can't, that'd be fantastic. I'm used to dodging unaimed/un-targeted direct fire from fatbros. Despite this thread, I find untargeted fire to be significantly easier to deal with than targeted fire. Give me that edge more often. I pay a premium on my Shadow Cats for mobility and what should be Infotech superiority - give it to me.

That would make for a much stronger overall MWO experience, don't you think?

[PhoenixD]

The thing is you're talking as if visual spotting doesn't work. It does! At the very worst the assault is going to be in the same situation they would be in an ECM-heavy game right now.

If the balance effects are equally weighted between infowarfare and offense, that is badbadbad because they aren't equivilent value.

Also some of the changes are...odd. The Huginn is a short-ranged Raven. The Raven is an info-war mech.

The Huginn has massive negative quirks for sensors.

[EX S]

I've played a few matches in what seems like the most "info restricted" mech in my stable and while I haven't been doing good by any stretch of the imagination, it's not because I magically can't see my enemies on radar or get a slower reading. I can actually pretty confidently say it has at best a minimal impact on how I play.

To be honest, I don't know what anyone expected to come out of "Information Warfare". What would it really bring that we don't have already? Scouting is pretty much more or less done by anyone with eyes, regardless of sensor ranges (which again are rendered useless by ECM which is abundant). Having a reduced sensor range isn't going to stop me from seeing 100 tons of attitude closing in on me from any distance that matters, and if I can't see the enemy in my LOS someone else will and it will show up on the radar (unless ECM).

Maybe if we had more complex game modes this might actually matter even a little bit, but how would that even work? Would people even like it or play it? So many whine about how people actually try to do the objectives on assault and conquest, which are simple game modes.

I'm not so against these sensor quirks that I want them gone... mostly because they do nothing in the first place. So if it makes people feel better to have them I don't have anything against the quirks staying, but it seriously has next to no impact on gameplay as it is now. More emphasis should definitely be put on weapon stats, mech structure quirks, and probably IS XL, then apply weapon quirks to give mechs personality and flavor.

1453 R, on 11 September 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

...seeing if high-mobility, Infotech-heavy designs like the Shadow Cat (I hope) can finally start outmaneuvering rampaging fatbros who can't target me long enough to get a proper fix for your 87-damage alphas.

Sorry, but the Shadow Cat seems to be actually worse off here. The infotech quirks you value (at least on my builds) is actually reduced at short to mid "outmaneuvering rampaging fatbros" ranges (which doesn't really matter anyway) and only slightly boosted at long ranges. One of my cats doesn't even have any structure boosts, and all of them have reduced torso twist angle and rates which means less maneuverability (though they do have the ever useless Accel/deccel quirks). If you equip ECM the infotech quirks don't even matter to fatties because if they get a glimpse of you and have acceptable aim they can still put a 87 point alpha regardless of whether or not you have a dorito.

Just so you can see, these are my loadout quirks:

SHC A:
Acceleration rate +10%
Deceleration Rate -10%
Turn Rate 5%
Additional Structure RT +22
Additional Structure LL +22
Additional Structure RL +22
Torso Turn Angle (YAW) -30
Torso Turn Rate (YAW) -3.75%
Target Retention Time -1.75%
Target Scan Time Short Range +300%
Target Scan Time Medium Range +50%
Target Acquisition Delay +2

SHC B:
Acceleration rate +20%
Decceleration rate +15%
Turn Rate -5%
Torso Turn Angle (YAW) -55
Torso Turn Rate (YAW) -15%
Target Retention Time +2
Target Scan Time Short Range +225%
Target Scan Time Medium Range +41.75%
Target Scan Time Long Range -5%
Target Acquisition Delay +2

SHC-PRIME
Acceleration Rate +50%
Deceleration Rate +20%
Additional Structure RT +22
Additional Structure LA +7
Additional Structure RA +7
Torso Turn Angle YAW -45
Torso Turn Rate YAW -16.25%
Target Retention time +2
Target Scan Time Short Range -100%
Target Scan Time Medium Range -41.25%
Target Scan Time Long Range -40%
Target Acquisition Delay +3.5

So aside from the generous structure quirks on two of my cats... nothing was really done to really augment the Shadow Cat's actual weaknesses or compliment its few strengths. Two of my cats have mostly negative targeting quirks for some reason -which thankfully means little- and maneuverability was mostly reduced since MASC makes the Accel/deccel quirks redundant. At the same time It is still tonnage starved, limited in hardpoints, and is not a whole lot more maneuverable than other mediums or lights with which it must contend.

I'm with you. I wanted my Shadow Cats to be useful and to have fun with them. It was the 2nd most anticipated mech of Wave III for me. It just doesn't look like it'll happen this pass. So for now, it looks like Locusts or my new Huggin will still fill my "super mobile striker' fix.

[1453 R]

Again, then.

Okay. Continue to work on combat balance. That's obviously important.

Why does continuing to work on combat balance, somehow, equate to ripping out Information Warfare altogether?

Yes, yes, yesyesyesyesyesyes. I understand. Firepower is critically important. More important than mobility, durability, and Infotech combined. Then balance as such.

Why does balancing based on the precept of Firepower > Everything Else Combined, somehow, equate to ripping out Information Warfare altogether?

I get it. Sphere pilots want their 50% refire quirks back. They liked having free missile launchers/autocannons and extra lasers. I would too. It is still bad for the game. If Clan 'Mechs have to take hits - and they do - in order to combat the Quirkening's egregious power creep, then we'll do that. But you don't get your complete-and-utter-horsesp!ss 50% refire quirks back.

And I will ask a third time: Why does any of this, somehow, equate to ripping out Information Warfare altogether?




EDIT::

EX S, on 11 September 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Ninja'd

Anyways. On this point: what I've seen of the Shadow Cat quirks makes zero sense. This 'Mech is even more firepower-restricted than the Summoner - why would they pummel its agility and Infotech like this? I'll have to check it out more in-depth when I finally get out of this concrete hellhole and have some time on my hands.

Edited by 1453 R, 11 September 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[ApolloKaras]

Iqfish does have a point however. When you line up against the clans on the other side of Borreal, IS is going to have a tough time.

[EX S]

1453 R, on 11 September 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Why does any of this, somehow, equate to ripping out Information Warfare altogether?

I don't think it really does, but at the same time the game isn't in a good state to start putting a lot of effort on that right now. I guess people feel that way because of the really heavy emphasis Paul put on IW, like it somehow matters as much as putting the big pew pew on the robbit in front of you; like it is super mega crucial. When, it really isn't. I'm all for it being done if it is done right, but I think combat needs looking at first as well as making all mechs relevant in a combat situation as opposed to just being scouts and looking at things (Looks at spider and commando).

1453 R, on 11 September 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Anyways. On this point: what I've seen of the Shadow Cat quirks makes zero sense. This 'Mech is even more firepower-restricted than the Summoner - why would they pummel its agility and Infotech like this? I'll have to check it out more in-depth when I finally get out of this concrete hellhole and have some time on my hands.

Yep. Makes absolutely no sense. The Shadow Cat was already a mech that was hardly sufficient at any given role, but they seem to have just made that worse here.

They really missed the mark here. There's a lot of data entry errors and odd or bad quirk choices, so the Shadow Cat may have just been a rushed afterthought. Hopefully. I don't want to think that someone actually thought this was a good idea.

I'm done testing for now. The targeting quirks don't do much of anything, and some quirks flat out don't make sense. On the positive side, a lot of Atlai got structure quirks (RIP DDC). That's a step forward. Hopefully they got enough feedback to rectify a lot of these mistakes and do better the next time.

[MovinTarget]

I've tried to read the forums to get a feel for the changes, I have no disk space for a PTR install... I hope that what I write won't be judged too harshly since I can't play the PTR.

With the increase in durability on many mechs, efficiency in targeting should be more important.

As some have mentioned elsewhere, They could make weapon convergence degenerate over distance more *unless* you have targeting info.

Also, I've noticed when you move your reticule over a mech, it will have little "jumps" as if its locking on a torso, arm, leg, etc...
Info warfare could assist with that, perhaps even "correcting" the aim of the player to maximize damage without having to look at the paper doll. Kind of a "stop shooting that 90% CT when the ST next to it is wide open!" effect. This may not be as attractive to veteran players since they may not feel they need the help but I'm lobbing out ideas for the community/devs to consider.

Others have mentioned that it may be useful to be able to "scan" the enemy mech to:
a. Post on match info screen what mech the target is using.
b. Determine if it's running an XL.
c. Advanced Paper Doll to give better intel - weapon, ammo placement etc.
d. Provide bonuses for mechs focusing on the targeted mech (crit chance, bonus dmg chance, slight range boost, etc)

Things like this would possibly not only make them more viable, but encourage teamplay (but you can only lead a horse to water) since it's to your advantage to be shooting at something that is targeted.

Of course rewards to compensate someone willing to sacrifice dmg output in order to provide critical intel for the team (and when the team uses it) would be in order to attract players to take on such roles.

And perhaps that will be the key addition. Above and beyond class queues, why not "role" queues so that you get get bonus xp/cbills/lp/??? for fulfilling a needed role? You could check it like the class queues and switch to drop in the most needed role (hint: LRM support will never be short of players lol).

Feel free to kill any/all my thoughts but please take into account I can only experience it through what you post so if I misunderstood or missed a facet because I didn't try the PTR, don't be too brutal.

[Midax]

Info Warfare does matter on the PTR right now. Watch how people play. I've seen a lot more nasty wrong turns into a massed team or flankers eating through several mechs in a death ball before being noticed by the larger group.

[Noth]

Midax, on 11 September 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Info Warfare does matter on the PTR right now. Watch how people play. I've seen a lot more nasty wrong turns into a massed team or flankers eating through several mechs in a death ball before being noticed by the larger group.

It matters but not as much as firepower. As a player's skill increases, the importance of the information warfare decreases. The second issue is that only one 2 weapons actually rely on information warfare, streaks and LRMs. I heard this idea on a stream, if you make lock ons give every weapon a 10% (number negotiable) damage bonus against the locked mech, you immediately make all weapons effectiveness rely at least somewhat on information warfare, along with give a reason for all players to want a lock.

Edited by Noth, 11 September 2015 - 07:14 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Noth, on 11 September 2015 - 07:13 PM, said:

It matters but not as much as firepower. As a player's skill increases, the importance of the information warfare decreases. The second issue is that only one 2 weapons actually rely on information warfare, streaks and LRMs. I heard this idea on a stream, if you make lock ons give every weapon a 10% (number negotiable) damage bonus against the locked mech, you immediately make all weapons effectiveness rely at least somewhat on information warfare, along with give a reason for all players to want a lock.

Yup, see my post above for expanding that role a bit more, because if all you can offer is a 10% increase, you might still be "meh" about the role...

Edited by MovinTarget, 11 September 2015 - 07:21 PM.

[Noth]

MovinTarget, on 11 September 2015 - 07:20 PM, said:

Yup, see my post above for expanding that role a bit more, because if all you can offer is a 10% increase, you might still be "meh" about the role...

Yeah it was just an example for the idea. Expanding on such an idea, and the general idea of of the quirks from this test of the Clans being more mobile and taking longer to acquire targets, and the IS being a bit tougher and acquiring targets faster also reinforces the idea of the Clans needing to expose longer to do their high damage, and the IS having to basically poke and frontload for damage.

[Elizander]

If and I mean IF they increase the chance to do critical hits when you are aiming at a mech which you have target info on, then it will be worth something.Will it be worth -30% energy cooldown or -10% energy heat? No, it won't, but it'll be something.

Also IF high level sensors can target and gain info through ECM even if you cannot get missile locks while doing so then it will be worth a little more.

And while we are talking about sensors, please let us know WHAT THE HELL OUR TEAMMATES ARE BRINGING ON THEIR MECHS!

I normally don't rage, but it's pretty dumb not knowing that the atlas you are protecting only has 4 LRM5s and two TAGs and nothing else until after you die and spectate.

[MovinTarget]

Elizander, on 11 September 2015 - 07:43 PM, said:

If and I mean IF they increase the chance to do critical hits when you are aiming at a mech which you have target info on, then it will be worth something.Will it be worth -30% energy cooldown or -10% energy heat? No, it won't, but it'll be something.

Also IF high level sensors can target and gain info through ECM even if you cannot get missile locks while doing so then it will be worth a little more.

And while we are talking about sensors, please let us know WHAT THE HELL OUR TEAMMATES ARE BRINGING ON THEIR MECHS!

I normally don't rage, but it's pretty dumb not knowing that the atlas you are protecting only has 4 LRM5s and two TAGs and nothing else until after you die and spectate.

Heck ya! Why be limited to just scanning enemies? Scan teammates too and tell the rest what their packing so you all can roflol over their builds.

But this made me think about something else, if all mechs are queuing for one role or another, then their loadout can be judged for capacity in that role, right?

That Atlas may have to queue as "ranged fire support" but perhaps they have to provide a certain minimum dps for 600+ meters in order to drop in that role based on tonnage. Not quite that simplified but something to that effect.

[Roadkill]

1453 R, on 11 September 2015 - 04:24 PM, said:

Besides - if sensor systems and targeting information was so pointless, why would Radar Deprivation be considered a nigh-mandatory module on all 'Mechs?

It isn't for anyone who has 2 brain cells to rub together in order to generate heat.

Face it, LRMs are pretty bad if your target is semi-intelligent. They're downright awful if your target is good. LRMs are only good when your target is a bad. Granted, some of us a really good at making bads pay for their incompetence, but that's a form of pilot skill and not anything that makes LRMs actually useful in a closely fought, skilled game.

Direct fire is where it's at, and for direct fire you don't need sensors other than Seismic. And you can do without Seismic if your situational awareness is good.

I get that this is a first step, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to test this particular first step. More pieces of the puzzle are needed before we can evaluate anything, because right now all they've managed to do is completely kill all lock on weapons.