89 replies to this topic

[Andi Nagasia]

Russ and Paul are working on a weapon rebalance, they will then look to some weapon Quirks but balance first,

[Telmasa]

Adiuvo, on 11 September 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

Due to the way various chassis are designed, there's no way to correct for inadequacies without specialized, personal, buffs. In other words quirks.

I completely disagree with this.

Vashramire, on 11 September 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

He specifically said weapon quirks during the stream tonight when asked about it. He said he wanted to do a weapons pass before putting any back in.

I'm not enthusiastic about hearing this, but at least it'll follow a weapon balance pass first.

If/when weapon quirks do return, they NEED-NEED-NEED to be hardcapped at a maximum, something way below the "25-50%" range.

I would say 10-12.5%, maximum, and no double-stacking effects - then, *then* I might be able to swallow weapon quirks, and I'd still have my doubts.

[Adiuvo]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

I completely disagree with this.

What changes would you make then? How do you differentiate between a Hunchback and a Shadowhawk?

Without quirks the Shadowhawk does everything better.

[Vashramire]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 06:51 PM, said:

I completely disagree with this.



I'm not enthusiastic about hearing this, but at least it'll follow a weapon balance pass first.

If/when weapon quirks do return, they NEED-NEED-NEED to be hardcapped at a maximum, something way below the "25-50%" range.

I would say 10-12.5%, maximum, and no double-stacking effects - then, *then* I might be able to swallow weapon quirks, and I'd still have my doubts.

I don't know about the double stacking (which I'm not a fan of either) but he did say they would be much lighter than they currently are.

[OznerpaG]

weapons are the point of this whole game, therefore i always thought from day 1 that weapon quirks were plain wrong. all IS mechs should have the same weapon abilities as other IS mechs, (same with clan) because ultimately weapons decide every match

this is a step in the right direction - if PGI lets me maneuver lesser mechs better so i can utilize the weapons i choose on any lesser mech as well as i can on a better mech then maybe i won't have to ignore 95% of the other mechs in MWO

Edited by JagdFlanker, 11 September 2015 - 07:02 PM.

[Telmasa]

Adiuvo, on 11 September 2015 - 06:55 PM, said:

What changes would you make then? How do you differentiate between a Hunchback and a Shadowhawk?

Without quirks the Shadowhawk does everything better.

The way that PGI already has.

The Hunchbacks (generally) are smaller and have more durability and mobility, so are much better in a brawl.

The Shadowhawks have some durability too, but are not as mobile & are taller/larger targets. They're better off at a distance.

And don't forget the Shadowhawk has a 5 ton advantage over the Hunchback.

Vashramire, on 11 September 2015 - 06:57 PM, said:

I don't know about the double stacking (which I'm not a fan of either) but he did say they would be much lighter than they currently are.

That is some relief. I'm still going to be awful wary about it though.

Edited by Telmasa, 11 September 2015 - 07:10 PM.

[FupDup]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

The way that PGI already has.

The Hunchbacks (generally) are smaller and have more durability and mobility, so are much better in a brawl.

The Shadowhawks have some durability too, but are not as mobile & are taller/larger targets. They're better off at a distance.

Shadow Hawks have JJs and can XL better, thus typically having a higher top speed and agility.

Shads also have much better hitboxes due to being lankier, having shield arms, and not having a huge side torso. Without quirks, a Shad will be more durable than the Hunchie.

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

And don't forget the Shadowhawk has a 5 ton advantage over the Hunchback.

That shouldn't make it a choice of ugprade or downgrade.

[Telmasa]

FupDup, on 11 September 2015 - 07:14 PM, said:

Shadow Hawks have JJs and can XL better, thus typically having a higher top speed and agility.

Shads also have much better hitboxes due to being lankier, having shield arms, and not having a huge side torso. Without quirks, a Shad will be more durable than the Hunchie.

Huh?
Yes, they have JJ.

But better XL? Hell no. Shadowhawk torsos are easier to target than Hunchback ones are, and they usually *don't* get any armor buffs like the Hunchback's "hunch" does.

Shadowhawks definitely do not have better hitboxes. They are slightly thinner from the side & the arms are considerably larger, but the hitboxes overall are also larger and proportioned such that it's very easy to single out a particular component unless they are exactly 90 degrees perpendicular to you.

And then you can just hit the legs, which are *much* taller on a Shadowhawk.

And then there's the PTS quirks, which I was including in my comparison.


Having another 5 tons as opposed to not having another 5 tons is always going to be an advantage. The Hunchie trades that 5 tons for being a little bit smaller and a little more compact, that's all.

Edited by Telmasa, 11 September 2015 - 07:22 PM.

[T0rmented]

well GG thunderwub, dakkadragon and all the rest, you were all super fun while you lasted.
You are all returning to the back of the Mechlab where you will all be mothballed, and ridiculed, again, like you were before there was a reason to drive you (quirks).
Does noone @ PGI remember that literally all the currently popular (ie well quirked) mechs were all unicorns because of their meh-ness prior to the quirkening?
Well screw being a merc anymore, where do i sign for a perma clan contract?

[FupDup]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 07:22 PM, said:

...But better XL? Hell no. Shadowhawk torsos are easier to target than Hunchback ones are...

Lol.

[Telmasa]

Quirks should not be the reason you drive a 'mech, T0rmented....

[T0rmented]

Telmasa did you play before quirks, cast your mind back, did you ever see a dragon or a thunderbolt?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I think eventually things like armor, structure and mobility / agility boosts should not be displayed as quirks and should be rolled into the base stats of mechs, the devs are on the right track testing those out first.

Then when Mechs have a good feel for how they recieve punishment, then there can be signature quirks that would then account for specific loadouts on various mechs that involve weapons and so on.

[East Indy]

Totally agreed. I can live with 50% being considered too high a boost. But if Clan/IS weapons are balanced so that 25% feels strong, even 7.5-10% will be enough of an incentive for me to load a variant with a favored loadout.

"Weapon quirks did not quite produce a solution" does not equal "quirks must disappear."

[VirtualSmitty]

Can't say I like the quirks. Wish PGI would just do away with it all together and let us select our own quirks a la the module system. or scrap ghost heat for awile so mechs like the awesome or mauler could actually use the weapon systems they were designed for. or maybe get real saucy and make double heat sinks perform like actual double sinks.

I don't know. The test server experience was the most depressing MWO i've had in ages.

[Krivvan]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 07:08 PM, said:

The Hunchbacks (generally) are smaller and have more durability and mobility, so are much better in a brawl.

The Shadowhawks have some durability too, but are not as mobile & are taller/larger targets. They're better off at a distance.

Did you play before quirks? The Hunchbacks were extinct. The Shadow Hawks were one of the only Mediums played.

[InRev]

Krivvan, on 11 September 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Did you play before quirks? The Hunchbacks were extinct. The Shadow Hawks were one of the only Mediums played.

That buzzing that you hear is the sound of the underhive.

[Telmasa]

T0rmented, on 11 September 2015 - 07:30 PM, said:

Telmasa did you play before quirks, cast your mind back, did you ever see a dragon or a thunderbolt?

Krivvan, on 11 September 2015 - 07:50 PM, said:

Did you play before quirks? The Hunchbacks were extinct. The Shadow Hawks were one of the only Mediums played.

InRev, on 11 September 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

That buzzing that you hear is the sound of the underhive.

1. Yes, I did. I saw the Dragon-1N used with 2xAC-5s to great success by fellas like ThisMachineKillsFascists (memorable because of how memorable the matches were), *long* before quirks came around. They weren't as common as other 'Mechs, sure, but they were never part of a package or promotion and never had good trial versions available, so there you go.

2. I saw plenty of Hunchbacks being used. Back then, as it is now, they were superior brawlers. The Shadowhawk largely became popular because of the -2H Trial version, which was a fantastic 'Mech - in fact that's the reason I got into Shadowhawks at all, I liked it so much I mastered & built my own copy of it. Now I have a Gray Death.

3. 1.63 KDR from mostly solo-pugging is under-hive territory to you? You must fancy yourself the Chuck Norris of MWO....

Edited by Telmasa, 11 September 2015 - 10:00 PM.

[jay35]

Krivvan, on 11 September 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

I believe it is a mistake to remove weapon quirks in their entirety. IS mechs overall have lost the risk vs. reward factor that they used to have. The Dragon-1N before, for example, could output a lot of damage, but was an easy to kill mech. This led to exciting gameplay where the risk of dying was high, but the potential reward for playing well and with skill was high as well.

With every mech quirked to improve survivability, the Dragon loses that aspect and isn't really a unique mech anymore. It just mainly has more structure and becomes more similar to other mechs.

Additionally, a lot of these IS mechs have so many similar quirks that they don't really feel very differentiated. Many of these quirks could've been rolled into basic movement stat changes instead flooding the list. I think it's better to market a mech as having a few very special attributes instead of a sea of attributes.

I'd recommend folding in many of the movement-related quirks into mech stats and adding at least some weapon quirks to mechs not so much to make bad mechs better, but to give some mechs some flavor.

At the heart of the problem is that Infotech simply does not begin to outweigh firepower changes. You don't need Infotech to shoot and damage mechs. You need firepower to use Infotech.

The battlegrid icons above the heads of mech are great though, although I know this is already mentioned but they should be color-coded and maybe only appear when the Target Info Overlay key is held.

The balance pass also makes the game extremely unfun to play because it saddles so many mechs with absurd punitive quirks just for trying to be efficient or effective on the battlefield.

It removes much of what made many of the IS variants diverse. It brings everything down to a low common denominator which isn't fun to actually play. They removed quirks that made many IS mechs unique within their chassis or their weight class, or gave them a purpose, or even made them competitive enough to fend off what would otherwise be superior Clan tech.

And finally, negative quirks and removing things like module slots. Why? Stop this. Stop with all the negatives and penalties. People naturally hate being penalized, and being penalized for playing the game intelligently is about the worst thing in the world if you want to encourage people to play your game. It's entirely possible to balance this game without ever placing a negative quirk on a mech because other things can be buffed to compensate and increase TTK, including internal structure, movement, and armor, and global weapon stats can be tweaked up or down to holistically adjust where imbalances clearly exist.

And with modules, taking away the ability to carry the standard amount is counterintuitive to them being a cbill/MC sink. Sure, add extra module slots to "scout" mechs, but don't take away the standard amount from the rest.

But this pass is unnecessarily starting over at a ground zero that never actually existed in the game before and for good reason.

The only good thing I can say is at least they are testing it first. Which for a normal developer wouldn't be saying much but for PGI it's a step in the right direction. It's really the least they should do and it's good they are doing it.

Now we need to see them be open enough to scrap this horrid "balance pass" and start over from what we have today, leaving quirks alone for the initial pass and same with module slots which should not even be on the table for removal only adding more for specific scout roles, and then doing the obvious things that are needed, like tweaking global weapon values, buffing mech armor, movement and internal structure quirks where needed, and then going from there. Again, it's really not that hard to improve balance from where things are today.

Edited by jay35, 11 September 2015 - 10:28 PM.

[jay35]

Krivvan, on 11 September 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:

It means those mechs won't get used anymore, period.

I'd rather only see Dragon-1Ns than see no Dragons at all. The Dragon quirks as they are now don't really make the Dragon any more special except still being a worse IS heavy compared to the others. You increase the survivability by armor sure (only by an alpha or so though), but why not just take a mech that has better survivability by not being shaped terribly?

Sadly, based on the PST, it looks like their idea is to make everything that was fun to play become now so painfully dull, boring, or outright broken due to negquirks that a Dragon without quirks is actually now a "decent" mech. Which is just as absurd as it sounds.