10 replies to this topic

[Mawai]

Dear PGI,

Paul's post was very informative in some ways but lacking in others.

1) The diamond approach with 4 indicators of mech capability was clearly explained.
2) The balancing of each variant for a chassis, followed by each chassis within a given tonnage was explained.

However, two key items were missing.

How is the balance actually achieved? Is it through the application of "quirks" e.g. armor, structure, heat, range etc?

How is the Clan vs. IS balance achieved? The text said that clans had gone from 100% overpowered to 70% and that the IS were then buffed using quirks but that this had resulted in unacceptable power creep. Are clan weapon systems being further balanced to bring IS and clan mechs into approximate parity at each given tonnage?

Thank you for reading ...


P.S. I am looking forward to testing this out. However, I am wondering what rewards there will be for a player choosing to use an info-tech role mech since they will usually have lower firepower and thus be less able to earn damage/kill/assist rewards or achieve a high match score.

Edited by Mawai, 11 September 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[Thunder Child]

How I understood it, is that they are reworking the quirks using the 4 point system. In the current PTS, the IS mechs are supposedly balanced against each other, with a later PTS rebalancing the IS and Clans.

It seems like each weight bracket (not Class, so 30,35,40, etc) is going to have an internal value that all mechs of that bracket must equal. So, some mechs will get negative quirks, and some will get positive quirks, depending on where they sit in that bracket, until all mechs have an equal score. Whether this means that all Inner Sphere mechs get buffed to match Clan mechs, or all Clan mechs get negative quirks, well, we won't know till it's finished.

Edit: It does mean that I should probably thrash the hell out of my newly acquired CN9-D and it's Autoshotty, while it still has the +40% LBX Fire Rate Quirk (even though that is FAAAAAR From OP).

Edited by Thunder Child, 11 September 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Yosharian]

Thunder Child, on 11 September 2015 - 02:02 PM, said:

How I understood it, is that they are reworking the quirks using the 4 point system. In the current PTS, the IS mechs are supposedly balanced against each other, with a later PTS rebalancing the IS and Clans.

It seems like each weight bracket (not Class, so 30,35,40, etc) is going to have an internal value that all mechs of that bracket must equal. So, some mechs will get negative quirks, and some will get positive quirks, depending on where they sit in that bracket, until all mechs have an equal score. Whether this means that all Inner Sphere mechs get buffed to match Clan mechs, or all Clan mechs get negative quirks, well, we won't know till it's finished.

Edit: It does mean that I should probably thrash the hell out of my newly acquired CN9-D and it's Autoshotty, while it still has the +40% LBX Fire Rate Quirk (even though that is FAAAAAR From OP).

Yeah, exactly. That and many other interesting-but-not-OP-not-even-close mechs are consigned to the fricking dustbin once this rebalance hits.

To think I wasted time and money purchasing and levelling bloody Vindicators.

Edited by Yosharian, 11 September 2015 - 02:15 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Yosharian, on 11 September 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

Yeah, exactly. That and many other interesting-but-not-OP-not-even-close mechs are consigned to the fricking dustbin once this rebalance hits.

To think I wasted time and money purchasing and levelling bloody Vindicators.

Not so. Put that knee down. Don't you jerk it. Don't you...!

Seriously, though. It works, in the context of how they intent to matchmake in the future. Team tonnage, not weight class matching. You can, and should, get away with 45=45=45, or 65=65=65, or 75>65>35 because you are no longer competing for a best in slot light, or medium, or heavy, or assault. You are just competing for your share of the tonnage. You put in 45 tons in, your 45 tons is balanced as 45 tons worth in the big picture.

[XX Sulla XX]

They needed examples. For example how does the longer Clan range get balanced.

[1453 R]

InfoTech is probably going to be a very potent balancing lever for Clan vs. IS. Remember: "no 'Mech is going to be highly efficient in all four areas."

Heh...after all, are Clan warriors not meant to engage in glorious single combat according to the honorable code of Zellbrigen? It's easy to justify, lore-wise, Clan InfoTech scores being enormously lower than comparable Inner Sphere chassis. I'm almost entirely certain, in fact, that the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf will have the effective equivalent of a monkey with a set of binoculars and a walky-talky to the cockpit in place of their sensor and targeting systems.

You're no doubt sitting there going "So freaking what?! They're still invincible in fights!"...but that's because you haven't thought about the ramifications of everything in Paul's post. What if info-sharing range limitations are both send and receive - and the TBR/SCR have a range of, say, 400m at which they can share allied targeting data? What if their innate sensor range is down to the same 400m, and their TIG time is upwards of five seconds?

Yes, extreme examples, but run with the thought experiment here. All a'sudden, your Timber Wolf is a blind tiger. You're an incredibly powerful combatant, yes, but you have very little idea where the enemy is without active VoIP communication and callouts, your own sensor range is bunk, and you have no idea where to direct your fire until halfway through your third alpha cycle. The 'Mech does an excellent job of ripping enemy 'Mechs to bits - if it can find them. That RVN-4X, with 1200 base sensor range, 1.5km target sharing, and half-second TIG? It can point the entire red team at you in your TBR before you're even remotely aware of its existence, and then the unwashed barbarian hordes of the Sphere will descend upon your shiny trueborn head and beat it with a million sticks until it resembles last night's bean casserole.

I know for a fact that everybody's going to just ignore InfoTech as a factor in balance...but I really, really think it's going to be a bigger lever than folks are assuming it will be, and probably one of the ways the traditionally crafty, craven, gang-up-on-'em Inner Sphere will excel over the Clans.

Which sucks because I'm a Clan pilot who traditionally, in other games, tries to specialize in or at least make most effective use of whatever that game's equivalent of InfoTech is T_T. Whelp, good thing I've been practicing in my Shadow Cats!

[Bulletsponge0]

1453 R, on 11 September 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

InfoTech is probably going to be a very potent balancing lever for Clan vs. IS. Remember: "no 'Mech is going to be highly efficient in all four areas."

Heh...after all, are Clan warriors not meant to engage in glorious single combat according to the honorable code of Zellbrigen? It's easy to justify, lore-wise, Clan InfoTech scores being enormously lower than comparable Inner Sphere chassis. I'm almost entirely certain, in fact, that the Stormcrow and Timber Wolf will have the effective equivalent of a monkey with a set of binoculars and a walky-talky to the cockpit in place of their sensor and targeting systems.

You're no doubt sitting there going "So freaking what?! They're still invincible in fights!"...but that's because you haven't thought about the ramifications of everything in Paul's post. What if info-sharing range limitations are both send and receive - and the TBR/SCR have a range of, say, 400m at which they can share allied targeting data? What if their innate sensor range is down to the same 400m, and their TIG time is upwards of five seconds?

Yes, extreme examples, but run with the thought experiment here. All a'sudden, your Timber Wolf is a blind tiger. You're an incredibly powerful combatant, yes, but you have very little idea where the enemy is without active VoIP communication and callouts, your own sensor range is bunk, and you have no idea where to direct your fire until halfway through your third alpha cycle. The 'Mech does an excellent job of ripping enemy 'Mechs to bits - if it can find them. That RVN-4X, with 1200 base sensor range, 1.5km target sharing, and half-second TIG? It can point the entire red team at you in your TBR before you're even remotely aware of its existence, and then the unwashed barbarian hordes of the Sphere will descend upon your shiny trueborn head and beat it with a million sticks until it resembles last night's bean casserole.

I know for a fact that everybody's going to just ignore InfoTech as a factor in balance...but I really, really think it's going to be a bigger lever than folks are assuming it will be, and probably one of the ways the traditionally crafty, craven, gang-up-on-'em Inner Sphere will excel over the Clans.

Which sucks because I'm a Clan pilot who traditionally, in other games, tries to specialize in or at least make most effective use of whatever that game's equivalent of InfoTech is T_T. Whelp, good thing I've been practicing in my Shadow Cats!

the infotech aspects become very interesting on maps with poor visibility (new forest colony, I'm looking at you)
it also will add value to using actual camo on mechs

for example, say the enemy has a Jester with the stock "camo"... it can be seen easily on FC...but if it can't acquire a arget lock for an extended period of time (no instant dorito at 800m), a mech with the stock olive drab camo will be able to advance on it, possibly getting into its best effective range before even getting fired on. Scouting will be important...at least on poor visibility maps...

[Thunder Child]

Yosharian, on 11 September 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

Yeah, exactly. That and many other interesting-but-not-OP-not-even-close mechs are consigned to the fricking dustbin once this rebalance hits.

To think I wasted time and money purchasing and levelling bloody Vindicators.

Well, hopefully that won't be the case. Sure, they are likely to lose their flavour quirks, but to be fair, very few of the flavour quirks worked as intended. Look at the TDR variant with the PPC quirk. PGI probably looked at the stock variant, and thought "Oh, lets make it so people want to keep that arm mounted PPC". And we, the players, said "OMAGERHD! +25% PPC Quirk! BOAT ALL THE PEEPS!". Should PGI have seen it coming, probably. But to be fair, if I had been balancing around stock loadouts, I'd have done the same, and then been shocked by what happened.

That said, it doesn't explain the Lack of Flamer quirks on FIREstarters.

On the plus side, all the mechs should have better balancing against their different variants. I just hope we don't end up with a "This on is Info, this one is damage, this one is armor, and this one is movement" for each chassis. Some mechs (like the Cyclops when we get it) should be primarily E-war focussed, regardless of Variants. Some mechs should be agility focussed, regardless of variant, etc.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

All they had to do is inventing Hard Point located quirks.
But too much coding I suppose. Editing xml files far better.

[Andi Nagasia]

Russ and Paul have said that a Equipment balance pass is coming, after this first PTS,
because after this New system Modifying weapons & Equipment can be dont on the Fly in HotFixes,

[Destoroyah]

I think they need to consider making the vision modes tied to the mechs effective detection range. Heat vision is already the best option to see well up to 800m especially on low visibility maps. Now if a timber had a relative sensor range of 400m it's vision modes should reflect that so if they want to effectively see at distance they got to use default mode and try to pick out the mechs. Now lets say a Raven 3L gots a sensor range of 1000m it's vision modes would extend that far as well. So in low visibility maps a scout mech can be a real asset as it can use advanced equipment to spot for the team, however on good visibility maps like canyon network it isn't a huge boon.