71 replies to this topic

[Johny Rocket]

I'll start with the Mauler, now that people are getting them figured out the QQagedon is already starting. Soon as I started pulling 600-700 average damage with the 1p with a 2.30 mkdr, I knew we would hear about the God Power Dakka Mauler.

There is the real issue, weapons quirks are not the problem its the business model of selling power creep. All of this revolves around a handful of mechs that were either premium, OP, murder machines, or existing mechs quirked to balance those mechs.

There are several mechs that are going to fall further into obscurity because of this.

Role warfare is the goal, right? Well what about the time I have spent tinkering with whats available to build mechs that have distinct roles and tactics.

No matter what you tweak you still destroy what i put my time into and quite honestly murder some of my favorite mechs that were already obscure enough.

Farewell Treb 7k, we had so much screen shaking fun with those AC/5s.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 16 September 2015 - 03:58 PM.

[Noth]

Tractor Joe, on 16 September 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I'll start with the Mauler, now that people are getting them figured out the QQagedon is already starting. Soon as I started pulling 600-700 average damage with the 1p with a 2.30 mkdr, I knew we would hear about the God Power Dakka Mauler.

There is the real issue, weapons quirks are not the problem its the business model of selling power creep. All of this revolves around a handful of mechs that were either premium, OP, murder machines, or existing mechs quirked to balance those mechs.

There are several mechs that are going to fall further into obscurity because of this.

Role warfare is the goal, right? Well what about the time I have spent tinkering with whats available to build mechs that have distinct roles and tactics.

No matter what you tweak you still destroy what i put my time into and quite honestly murder some of my favorite mechs that were already obscure enough.

Farewell Treb 7k, we had so much screen shaking fun with those AC/5s.

There is a reason why online games tell you that things can change.

[Mystere]

Maulers are OP!

Nerf NAO or I will RAGE QUIT!!!

[oldradagast]

Noth, on 16 September 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

There is a reason why online games tell you that things can change.

And there's a reason online games that change too much cease to stay in business.

See also Star Wars Galaxy, and probably a host of other dead games.

Those who don't learn from past mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

[Noth]

oldradagast, on 16 September 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

And there's a reason online games that change too much cease to stay in business.

See also Star Wars Galaxy, and probably a host of other dead games.

Those who don't learn from past mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

WoW has changed a ton, even before its decline. LoL will do almost yearly revamps that drastically changes the meta, champions, and most things about how you play well.

Star War galaxy died because it moved away from what the game was meant to be(a sandbox game) and tried to shoehorn in thempark because the publishers got greedy.

MWO isn't changing what it is. It is changing the balance attempting to create not just better balance but also put in the tools to be able to change it as needy in a much easier way.

[oldradagast]

Noth, on 16 September 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

WoW has changed a ton, even before its decline. LoL will do almost yearly revamps that drastically changes the meta, champions, and most things about how you play well.

But MWO is not such a game. It's niche game full of older casual gamers and a small percentage of hard-core ones, many of whom buy mechs based on nostalgia, roleplaying, and feel even if they are dismal performers in game. Such an environment is not conducive to massive shakeups long after the game's release for three reasons:
- Small players base; they can't afford to lose players
- Players are attached to what they bought for reasons other than "winning with the flavor of the month" and thus won't be happy when their favorite mech morphs into something functionally very different.
- No real reason to regrind new mechs (no real-world income off the game, etc.) so players leave.

MWO is not like Magic: the Gathering, where you could print trash and get people to buy it because of the forced card rotations, or like WoW, Dota, LoL, where people will spend an insane mount of time and money grinding whatever the flavor of the month is because winning is all that matters.

MWO is more like Dungeons and Dragons, where people have old favorites (character classes, items, spells, etc.) And the last time somebody tried to "totally re-imagine" D&D, it resulted in 4th Edition, which was not very successful at all.

Edited by oldradagast, 16 September 2015 - 05:54 PM.

[Wayreth]

I am still waiting on my warhammer mech

[IraqiWalker]

oldradagast, on 16 September 2015 - 04:55 PM, said:

And there's a reason online games that change too much cease to stay in business.

See also Star Wars Galaxy, and probably a host of other dead games.

Those who don't learn from past mistakes are doomed to repeat them.

See both LoL, and DoTA 2 as counter arguments that disprove your point.

[Thorqemada]

I am pretty sure these games have playbases that have imcomparable gaming behavior.
For me i am totally not attracted by LoL or DoTA...i want have a game a sensible, well thought out and then reliable balance with slight changes over time possible when Equipment/Armament of advanced techlevels is incorporated.

Fo me a working economy/logistic would be a much bigger motivation than some artifical, unsensible and diffuse balance changes.

Edited by Thorqemada, 16 September 2015 - 11:46 PM.

[DivineEvil]

It's ironic how you're blaming PGI for killing chassies, when they're desperately trying to revive the dead ones...

[oldradagast]

IraqiWalker, on 16 September 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

See both LoL, and DoTA 2 as counter arguments that disprove your point.

LoL and DotA player, in general, have almost nothing in common with MWO players other than they both play PvP computer games online. In those games (much like professional Magic: The Gathering), people focus on doing whatever it takes to win and consider an ever-shifting meta as a chance to prove how much better than are than everyone else. They'll gladly fork out a fortune for the next Pay to Win edge they can get, making selling to them via power creep very easy. Also, in some of those games like that, you can win real money via tournaments and such if you're good enough, which is also not true in MWO.

In MWO, on the other hand, you have folks who buy mechs heavily out of nostalgia, individual personality ("nobody else may play this mech, but I do!"), and the hard to quantify "how the mech feels" factor. They are NOT going to be happy when their nostalgia-mech turns into something completely different - and possibly useless - thanks to "info-tech" silliness.

Finally, LoL, DotA, and so forth have MUCH larger fan bases, so they can afford to lose customers if they screw up. MWO does not have that luxury.

[oldradagast]

DivineEvil, on 17 September 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

It's ironic how you're blaming PGI for killing chassies, when they're desperately trying to revive the dead ones...

Did you SEE the data on the test server?

More importantly, blinding most mechs and then hoping that there's a "sensor mech" nearby to find people is NOT going to make more mechs viable.

- The mechs that are now "scout mechs" will no doubt have their combat abilities reduced because of their awesome, new "scout powers" - because finding opponents while not being able to do anything about them is "fun."
- Meanwhile, the rest of the mechs will be blinded, making them even weaker and less useful.

In the end, the post "info-tech" meta will be dominated by the tiny number of mechs that can boat pinpoint weapons - just as before - and which can see the enemy fast enough to kill them.

The more limitations you put on a mech being viable, such as needing decent sensors on top of hitboxes, weapon boating, high hardpoints, and so on, the fewer mechs will be viable.

Edited by oldradagast, 17 September 2015 - 03:10 AM.

[xengk]

oldradagast, on 17 September 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

In MWO, on the other hand, you have folks who buy mechs heavily out of nostalgia, individual personality ("nobody else may play this mech, but I do!"), and the hard to quantify "how the mech feels" factor. They are NOT going to be happy when their nostalgia-mech turns into something completely different - and possibly useless - thanks to "info-tech" silliness.

I would consider myself part of first 2 category.
People in this category tend not to care how optimum their favourite mech performs, as long as they get to drive it into combat. I have been driving my 8Q before quirk, still drive it after quirk, and will most likely continue to drive it after re-balance.

It is the competitive group that throw the biggest fit when a mech is nerf/buff/meta-changed.

[shippy]

oldradagast, on 16 September 2015 - 05:51 PM, said:

But MWO is not such a game. It's niche game full of older casual gamers and a small percentage of hard-core ones, many of whom buy mechs based on nostalgia, roleplaying, and feel even if they are dismal performers in game. Such an environment is not conducive to massive shakeups long after the game's release for three reasons:
- Small players base; they can't afford to lose players
- Players are attached to what they bought for reasons other than "winning with the flavor of the month" and thus won't be happy when their favorite mech morphs into something functionally very different.
- No real reason to regrind new mechs (no real-world income off the game, etc.) so players leave.

Actually I think you have this exactly backwards, older gamers, Niche gamers, caual players who love the lore/rp aspect of the mechs are not going to care if you change turn rotation 2% or care of a Mad-3r isn't "optimized for end game" they like the idea of running around and shooting mechs with a Maurader. I count myself in this group. I can barely tell the difference from my first match in a mech to when i have it elited. I believe people grind these additional mechs because they're fun and cool and they love Trenchbuckets not because it's so vastly different from any other mech out there they need to grind it.
I guess it comes down to the definition of massive shakeup. if a Marauder is suddenly a 25 ton scout that's a massive shake up, if a mad can mount two AC/5s instead of the traditional 1, i don't think many care too much.

All games tweak settings, fundamentally it's kinda pointless to grind a second mech of any weight class, but pointless can still be fun.

[Lily from animove]

you can not really blame PGI for creating mechs that wer done by the BT TT

And balance, well they try at leats, but mwo is a diffeerent set of complex than most games even are.

shippy, on 17 September 2015 - 09:04 AM, said:

Actually I think you have this exactly backwards, older gamers, Niche gamers, casual players who love the lore/rp aspect of the mechs are not going to care if you change turn rotation 2% or care of a Mad-3r isn't "optimized for end game" they like the idea of running around and shooting mechs with a Maurader. I count myself in this group. I can barely tell the difference from my first match in a mech to when i have it elited. I believe people grind these additional mechs because they're fun and cool and they love Trenchbuckets not because it's so vastly different from any other mech out there they need to grind it.

No, Those poeple are still not stupid enough to play the emchs they like over and over again when they are in fact so bad that they regulary get trashed in them. there is a point when a mech reach a specifc uslessness in comparsion to others where they won't be used anymore, regardloess of lore and friendship and nostalgy and passion. Probably only because of masichism.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 September 2015 - 09:39 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

oldradagast, on 17 September 2015 - 03:07 AM, said:

LoL and DotA player, in general, have almost nothing in common with MWO players other than they both play PvP computer games online. In those games (much like professional Magic: The Gathering), people focus on doing whatever it takes to win and consider an ever-shifting meta as a chance to prove how much better than are than everyone else. They'll gladly fork out a fortune for the next Pay to Win edge they can get, making selling to them via power creep very easy. Also, in some of those games like that, you can win real money via tournaments and such if you're good enough, which is also not true in MWO.

In MWO, on the other hand, you have folks who buy mechs heavily out of nostalgia, individual personality ("nobody else may play this mech, but I do!"), and the hard to quantify "how the mech feels" factor. They are NOT going to be happy when their nostalgia-mech turns into something completely different - and possibly useless - thanks to "info-tech" silliness.

Finally, LoL, DotA, and so forth have MUCH larger fan bases, so they can afford to lose customers if they screw up. MWO does not have that luxury.

Boy are you assuming many things. While LoL may not have a long term lore like BT, some of us still play champions out of nostalgia. I have played Pantheon, and Ezreal every single season of the game. Even when they fell out of meta. In fact, Pantheon didn't see anything close to competitive play for 2 seasons straight, and I was still using him regularly (because of that, my friends nickname me Mantheon).

The rest, I'm willing to say you've got 50% wrong.

This all by the way, does not change my point. You said that games that change too often die, and I gave you examples of games that change VERY frequently (MtG is in this category btw), and they are all very successful, and show no signs of slowing down.

[Goombah]

The mauler has a problem. Lrm15 cool down and I don't use lrms. That's a problem. Fix it.

[oldradagast]

IraqiWalker, on 17 September 2015 - 09:57 PM, said:

Boy are you assuming many things. While LoL may not have a long term lore like BT, some of us still play champions out of nostalgia. I have played Pantheon, and Ezreal every single season of the game. Even when they fell out of meta. In fact, Pantheon didn't see anything close to competitive play for 2 seasons straight, and I was still using him regularly (because of that, my friends nickname me Mantheon).

The rest, I'm willing to say you've got 50% wrong.

This all by the way, does not change my point. You said that games that change too often die, and I gave you examples of games that change VERY frequently (MtG is in this category btw), and they are all very successful, and show no signs of slowing down.

So, you're the exception, not the rule - big deal. I play Awesomes, I guess that means they are meta and everyone plays them...

As for the rest, Magic survives because there was no competition from the mid 1990's who were able to get their act together and compete with them. Nobody else put in the same level of effort in design, playtesting, marketing, and so forth. Also, Wizards of the Coast - unlike the competition - has had the backing of Hasbro's deep pockets for well over a decade. So, despite Standard format Magic being an insane money pit, it survives because nobody else could compete. You're fooling yourself is you think MWO is in the same position... quite frankly, from resources perspective, PGI has far more in common with the flash-in-the-pan companies that tried to take on Magic than it does with Wizards of the Coast. There are countless other video games to play, and next to no other collectible card games.

Finally, even Magic - a game notorious for format changes and being a money-sink - has a powerful, fan-created casual format called Commander, so even a game like that has a "nostalgia" format, something which is heading out the window in this game if the Unbalancing happens as shown on the PTS.

Edited by oldradagast, 18 September 2015 - 05:22 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

oldradagast, on 18 September 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

So, you're the exception, not the rule - big deal. I play Awesomes, I guess that means they are meta and everyone plays them...

What does that even mean? We have just as many players that play for nostalgia, as we do for meta

oldradagast, on 18 September 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

As for the rest, Magic survives because there was no competition from the mid 1990's who were able to get their act together and compete with them. Nobody else put in the same level of effort in design, playtesting, marketing, and so forth. Also, Wizards of the Coast - unlike the competition - has had the backing of Hasbro's deep pockets for well over a decade. So, despite Standard format Magic being an insane money pit, it survives because nobody else could compete. You're fooling yourself is you think MWO is in the same position... quite frankly, from resources perspective, PGI has far more in common with the flash-in-the-pan companies that tried to take on Magic than it does with Wizards of the Coast. There are countless other video games to play, and next to no other collectible card games.

I think you're missing the point. Magic, LoL, DotA, and several others are examples of games that change frequently, and are successful. They also have a big nostalgia element, even if you choose to ignore it.

MtG is still offering a product that could be turned down by the customers, saying they had no competition is not a guarantee for success. The product is actually good. Good enough to allow them to survive, and thrive.

oldradagast, on 18 September 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

Finally, even Magic - a game notorious for format changes and being a money-sink - has a powerful, fan-created casual format called Commander, so even a game like that has a "nostalgia" format, something which is heading out the window in this game if the Unbalancing happens as shown on the PTS.

I can understand part 1 of that, since I play commander as well (though I prefer casual standard more). However, the rebalancing on the server is still in it's infancy, it's not the final stage of that balance pass. We still need to go through it's phases, and even then, it's not the last time the game changes. I see nothing wrong with the game constantly changing.

[KursedVixen]

DivineEvil, on 17 September 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

Which is why some people in MWO were buying mech packs, and now whine like little babies in a sandbox, when someone's messing with "their" sandcakes.

In case you missed the train, there were a community-sponsored MLMW tournament, where winners were awarded with cash prizes.

Your personal bias are so strong, I can feel them from out here. They don't smell very good.

It is not our job to tell PGI how to do their business. Balance right now doesn't work. What mechs to play is set in stone basically. Everything you see on my PSR is meta-builds and laser-vomit.


Yes, I've been playing on it the first 6 hours it was up. It's not final. You should pay a tatoo artist so he would write it on your forehead.

We're here not to discuss your no-doubts. Stop seeing your assumptions as facts. Scout mechs will be able to use long-range weapons even better now. Strikers will now be able to harass harder.


Any common sense please, if you have any. First, scouts are bad. Now, all other mechs are weak. Do you have a perspective that expands beyond your own nose?

The point is to make each mech with limitations, so that every one of them would be better for something, than the other.

Stop poking at people and be nice.

A problem with: "this mech is better for this" is we can't even choose our mechs in the public games to fit the terrain. A General of the army will not call a nuke to every single situation that he needs to deal with. Nor will the navy just say oh let's just do a bombing run ever single time. it doesn't work like that Leaders of armed forces look at the field decide which asset is the best for that field and deploy it. For example. The Urban mech is built for urban combat close quaters. You don't drop an urbanmech into a wide open desert. Each mech has a role yes ,but the fact that we don't even see what map were on doesn't help.

Edited by KursedVixen, 18 September 2015 - 11:03 PM.