170 replies to this topic

[Yokaiko]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

In your opinion.

I do not agree with that. The discrepencies between same-tonnage mechs are usually not that big to make firepower quirks obligatory.

Oh?

Catapult, Thunderbolt, Hellbringer.

Cataphract, Grasshopper Summoner

Zeus, Awesome, Gargoyle

Three quickies.

Edited by Yokaiko, 12 September 2015 - 08:11 AM.

[MechaBattler]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

In your opinion.

I do not agree with that. The discrepencies between same-tonnage mechs are usually not that big to make firepower quirks obligatory. and those can still be added once those that are in need of them, are identified. In my experience, (with the exception of assaults and heavier heavies) you are more constrained by tonnage than by weapon hardpoints, making the armor/structure quirks perfect to level things out (+X armor quirk means X armor than can be shaven off to increase firepower by adding additional weapon / heatsink / whatever)

Gimme a real example of shaving off armor equal to the structure armor quirks. Show us how much weight you save and then can use to increase your firepower.

[Astrocanis]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

For the last 6h i'm looking at what people write here, and don't know, weather to laugh or cry. No longer than few days ago, Russ said (during town hall) that they are not doing IS vs Clan balance right off the bat here. First they want to make all variants more or less equal, then make the same tonnage mechs more or less equal and only then balance IS vs Clan.

Everyone is raging about Clan vs IS balance.

It was (and is) stated that this is supposed to make chassi more balanced, not the goddamn weapons.

Everyone is raging about Clan vs IS weapons.

People want weapon quirks. What exactly is the point of giving every IS same quirk? just change the weapons already. Preferably by lowering the damage output of best performing weapons, rather than upping damage output of everything else to that level. TTK is low enough, and removing weapon quirks is a good first step to raise it.



Not to mention plain insults flying all over the place. Good way to ensure nothing will be done ever. Why bother to do anything when even best intentioned PROPOSAL will be met with "This-and-That are <random insult about being incompetent ****** made by a person that couldn't write hello world application code if their life depended on it>".


The only thing i can agree on, is overemphasis of infotech. It's not as important as all those quirks would make it, and nerfs to radar will just make lrms and ssrms less useful (as if that was possible with lrms). That's why we need active/passive already. Passive would be basically what we have now, with reduced range (to around 300~500m), and active being able to lock on up to 800~900m, even through cover, but enemy running active would show on everyone sensors up to 1200m, making turning them on a guaranteed lermrain. Only then infotech would gain enought significance to make any quirks in that area relevant. (for example, a quirk that would reduce the range on which active radar mech would show up for enemy)

Having said that, i can say that i am not certain about perticular quirks on particular mechs. Some of them probably are wrong. All i know is that getting rid of weapon quirks is a GOOD thing. If weapons is underperforming, the weapon needs changes. If chassis is underperforming, the chassis needs changes, not the weapon on it.

Why, you're absolutely right. The Timberwolves were hardly played - now the buffs they are getting are going to make them minimally viable.

Do I really need sarc tags?

[Yokaiko]

MechaBattler, on 12 September 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Gimme a real example of shaving off armor equal to the structure armor quirks. Show us how much weight you save and then can use to increase your firepower.

Then tell us how long said firepower lasts without armor, because crits happen.

[gloowa]

Astrocanis, on 12 September 2015 - 08:23 AM, said:

Why, you're absolutely right. The Timberwolves were hardly played - now the buffs they are getting are going to make them minimally viable.

Do I really need sarc tags?

And that is in response to what, exactly? Maybe you skipped the part in my post where i noted that many mechs are probably quirked incorrectly and that's why we have PTS to iterate over those quirks and see what needs to be changed? Try reading it again.

MechaBattler, on 12 September 2015 - 08:14 AM, said:

Gimme a real example of shaving off armor equal to the structure armor quirks. Show us how much weight you save and then can use to increase your firepower.

Atlas AS7-D gets additional 334 hp. 334/32 = 10.4 additional tons.
Atlas AS7-L gets additional 176 hp. that is just a bit under 5t.
Atlas AS7-S gets smallest benefit of 3t.

Awesome AWS-8T and AWS-8Q get 5 tons.
AWS-8R, AWS-8V, AWS-8M get 3.5 tons.

Banshee BNC-3S gets 4 tons
BNC-3M gets 2

Battlemaster BLR-1D gets 3.5 tons

Highlander HGN-732B gets 6 tons
HGN-733P and HGN-733 get 2 tons.

Need i go all the way to Z?

[MechaBattler]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

And that is in response to what, exactly? Maybe you skipped the part in my post where i noted that many mechs are probably quirked incorrectly and that's why we have PTS to iterate over those quirks and see what needs to be changed? Try reading it again.


Atlas AS7-D gets additional 334 hp. 334/32 = 10.4 additional tons.
Atlas AS7-L gets additional 176 hp. that is just a bit under 5t.
Atlas AS7-S gets smallest benefit of 3t.

Awesome AWS-8T and AWS-8Q get 5 tons.
AWS-8R, AWS-8V, AWS-8M get 3.5 tons.

Banshee BNC-3S gets 4 tons
BNC-3M gets 2

Battlemaster BLR-1D gets 3.5 tons

Highlander HGN-732B gets 6 tons
HGN-733P and HGN-733 get 2 tons.

Need i go all the way to Z?

Yes actually. Can you? So what I'm seeing is even more tonnage creep for assaults. Such balance. Mediums prepare yourselves! Although if the PGI gods deemed your variant unworthy of such quirks. I guess you're effed.

Also there's that whole thing with crits doing more damage. Which would make crit seeking weapons desirable. So I guess that's a bonus?

[Nothing Whatsoever]

The first set of values we have are mostly structure and mobility agility quirks.

This is gonna be done in stages, as stated here.

The devs probably should have been way more obvious to that point, that this is the first stage and in no way a final set of values.

And players should focus more on how mechs feel with these current boosts, so that these sets of values can be adjusted as necessary.

[L3mming2]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

In your opinion.

I do not agree with that. The discrepencies between same-tonnage mechs are usually not that big to make firepower quirks obligatory. and those can still be added once those that are in need of them, are identified. In my experience, (with the exception of assaults and heavier heavies) you are more constrained by tonnage than by weapon hardpoints, making the armor/structure quirks perfect to level things out (+X armor quirk means X armor than can be shaven off to increase firepower by adding additional weapon / heatsink / whatever)

I dont agree whit the premice that a locust should be the worst mech in the game simply because its the lightest ... so in my opinion screw the balance between same tonnage mechs, i want inter class balance ... not dire wolf online

[Johnny Z]

To the OP. The Clan small laser does 5 damage for a half ton, 10 damage for 1 ton with a range rivaling the Inner Sphere medium laser.

Thats 10 damage for 1 ton.

The Clan mechs have been easy mode for WAY TO LONG. Players have either quit of given up on rage ROFL.

All that left in this chat is Clan players.

[XX Sulla XX]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

For the last 6h i'm looking at what people write here, and don't know, weather to laugh or cry. No longer than few days ago, Russ said (during town hall) that they are not doing IS vs Clan balance right off the bat here. First they want to make all variants more or less equal, then make the same tonnage mechs more or less equal and only then balance IS vs Clan.

Everyone is raging about Clan vs IS balance.

It was (and is) stated that this is supposed to make chassi more balanced, not the goddamn weapons.

Everyone is raging about Clan vs IS weapons.

People want weapon quirks. What exactly is the point of giving every IS same quirk? just change the weapons already. Preferably by lowering the damage output of best performing weapons, rather than upping damage output of everything else to that level. TTK is low enough, and removing weapon quirks is a good first step to raise it.



Not to mention plain insults flying all over the place. Good way to ensure nothing will be done ever. Why bother to do anything when even best intentioned PROPOSAL will be met with "This-and-That are <random insult about being incompetent ****** made by a person that couldn't write hello world application code if their life depended on it>".


The only thing i can agree on, is overemphasis of infotech. It's not as important as all those quirks would make it, and nerfs to radar will just make lrms and ssrms less useful (as if that was possible with lrms). That's why we need active/passive already. Passive would be basically what we have now, with reduced range (to around 300~500m), and active being able to lock on up to 800~900m, even through cover, but enemy running active would show on everyone sensors up to 1200m, making turning them on a guaranteed lermrain. Only then infotech would gain enought significance to make any quirks in that area relevant. (for example, a quirk that would reduce the range on which active radar mech would show up for enemy)

Having said that, i can say that i am not certain about perticular quirks on particular mechs. Some of them probably are wrong. All i know is that getting rid of weapon quirks is a GOOD thing. If weapons is underperforming, the weapon needs changes. If chassis is underperforming, the chassis needs changes, not the weapon on it.

The problem is they have not been very clear and detailed about what they are doing and why.

Before this was ever live they should have been clear on the forums in an official post. Clan vs IS will be broken.

They should have published the quirks for all mechs for the test and noted problems they understood to be there.

If they understand they need new IS tech for balance they should have posted it with the above.

If they understand sensors are not great for balance but just adding more twists to gameplay etc they should have mentioned it.

After doing that on the forums then the test server should have gone live. They set it up so they would have lots of negative feedback based of lack of data or limited data

[Livewyr]

Yokaiko, on 12 September 2015 - 06:39 AM, said:

No really the stronger clan mechs are relatively untouoched, if not UN-nerfed

That overpowered Shadow Cat certainly got its comeuppance.

[Johnny Z]

As far as I am concerned I am disgusted with Clan easy mode at the moment and this Inner Sphere player is out to. Later have fun.

[Mystere]

XX Sulla XX, on 12 September 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

The problem is they have not been very clear and detailed about what they are doing and why.

Before this was ever live they should have been clear on the forums in an official post. Clan vs IS will be broken.

They should have published the quirks for all mechs for the test and noted problems they understood to be there.

If they understand they need new IS tech for balance they should have posted it with the above.

If they understand sensors are not great for balance but just adding more twists to gameplay etc they should have mentioned it.

After doing that on the forums then the test server should have gone live. They set it up so they would have lots of negative feedback based of lack of data or limited data

Actually, they did say a bunch of those things. They just weren't worded correctly. At the same time, many are too busy raging to notice.

Edited by Mystere, 12 September 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 06:24 AM, said:

For the last 6h i'm looking at what people write here, and don't know, weather to laugh or cry. No longer than few days ago, Russ said (during town hall) that they are not doing IS vs Clan balance right off the bat here. First they want to make all variants more or less equal, then make the same tonnage mechs more or less equal and only then balance IS vs Clan.

Everyone is raging about Clan vs IS balance.

It was (and is) stated that this is supposed to make chassi more balanced, not the goddamn weapons.

Everyone is raging about Clan vs IS weapons.

People want weapon quirks. What exactly is the point of giving every IS same quirk? just change the weapons already. Preferably by lowering the damage output of best performing weapons, rather than upping damage output of everything else to that level. TTK is low enough, and removing weapon quirks is a good first step to raise it.



Not to mention plain insults flying all over the place. Good way to ensure nothing will be done ever. Why bother to do anything when even best intentioned PROPOSAL will be met with &quot;This-and-That are &lt;random insult about being incompetent ****** made by a person that couldn't write hello world application code if their life depended on it&gt;&quot;.


The only thing i can agree on, is overemphasis of infotech. It's not as important as all those quirks would make it, and nerfs to radar will just make lrms and ssrms less useful (as if that was possible with lrms). That's why we need active/passive already. Passive would be basically what we have now, with reduced range (to around 300~500m), and active being able to lock on up to 800~900m, even through cover, but enemy running active would show on everyone sensors up to 1200m, making turning them on a guaranteed lermrain. Only then infotech would gain enought significance to make any quirks in that area relevant. (for example, a quirk that would reduce the range on which active radar mech would show up for enemy)

Having said that, i can say that i am not certain about perticular quirks on particular mechs. Some of them probably are wrong. All i know is that getting rid of weapon quirks is a GOOD thing. If weapons is underperforming, the weapon needs changes. If chassis is underperforming, the chassis needs changes, not the weapon on it.

Weapon quirks were needed to address the following:

Clan Superior Range
Clan Superior Damage
Clan weapons weighing less
Clan weapons requiring less slots

Adding weapon quirks to various IS 'mechs provided a few IS 'mechs to come close to matching Clan ranges, and at least on a specific weapon basis, come close to matching Clan DPS.

Without weapon quirks, and from what I've seen posted in various feedback, the system now encourages clans to min/max their quirks by swapping omnipods to 'Frankenstien' their way to a 'mech with as many POSITIVE quirks and as few NEGATIVE quirks as possible.

The IS doesn't have Omnipods so, at best the IS can try and make the chassis with the least negative quirks work.

Unfortunately, now without weapon specific quirks we're back to being outrageous outgunned in potential alpha power, DPS, and range.

NOT TO MENTION we still can't really load XL engines in IS 'mechs as all the clans have to do is blow away one side torso and game over, where as the IS has to either blow away two legs, two side torsos, or a center torso to kill a clan 'mech.

NOW, and please pay very close attention to what I'm about to say:

I would be fine with this in CW, IF, CW matches that were IS vs. Clan were limited to a 12v10, 260 ton vs 240 ton, drop deck.

The Clan should have superior tech, BUT, the IS should be able to bring superior numbers.

Without being able to do the above, then we MUST have equivalent weapon abilities, and survivability between both sides, otherwise, the Clans are just going to steam roll every season of CW.

The TYPICAL Clan centric response is that, "Oh no, everything is balanced, you IS pilots just suck", or, "Oh no, everything balanced, you IS guys just don't play organize", yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda...

Truth be told you can't sit there and say, "A few of the IS lasers have shorter burn durations so everything is balanced, L2P", and be expected to be taken seriously.

What PGI has done here has shown an incredible lack of understanding about this game and how it is actually played, if not an outright preference towards making and keeping the Clans as OP as possible.

It's been very frustrating to watch this happen over the years. Better to have NEVER brought the Clans into the game at all, and started the time line at 3025, for a 4th Succession Wars dynamic instead.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 12 September 2015 - 11:55 AM.

[gloowa]

Johnny Z, on 12 September 2015 - 11:34 AM, said:

To the OP. The Clan small laser does 5 damage for a half ton, 10 damage for 1 ton with a range rivaling the Inner Sphere medium laser.

Thats 10 damage for 1 ton.

The Clan mechs have been easy mode for WAY TO LONG. Players have either quit of given up on rage ROFL.

All that left in this chat is Clan players.

Which is why entire paragraph of my OP is addressing weapons.

L3mming2, on 12 September 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

I dont agree whit the premice that a locust should be the worst mech in the game simply because its the lightest ... so in my opinion screw the balance between same tonnage mechs, i want inter class balance ... not dire wolf online

Sooo, what you want is being able to spend 4 million on a locust and be able to kill 18 million heavy no problem. Sounds reasonable.

MechaBattler, on 12 September 2015 - 11:09 AM, said:

Yes actually. Can you? So what I'm seeing is even more tonnage creep for assaults. Such balance. Mediums prepare yourselves! Although if the PGI gods deemed your variant unworthy of such quirks. I guess you're effed.

Also there's that whole thing with crits doing more damage. Which would make crit seeking weapons desirable. So I guess that's a bonus?

So, i say this quirks give real benefits. You say no they don't prove it. I prove it. You say it's even worse, because they give benefit. Logic.

I can kind of agree with what you are saying here, but you still seem not to grasp that this is first stage. to be built upon, until we deem all this changes together worth putting into live game. Instead, you flat out bash what i think is a good way and approach to making all mechs more or less equal, because you get sidetracked by weapons which are not relavant to what is being done here.

Dimento Graven, on 12 September 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

Weapon quirks were needed to address the following:

Clan Superior Range
Clan Superior Damage
Clan weapons weighing less
Clan weapons requiring less slots

Adding weapon quirks to various IS 'mechs provided a few IS 'mechs to come close to match Clan ranges, and at least on a specific weapon basis, come close to matching Clan DPS.

Without weapon quirks, and from what I've seen posted in various feedback, the system now encourages clans to min/max their quirks by swapping omnipods to 'Frankenstien' their way to a 'mech with as many POSITIVE quirks and as few NEGATIVE quirks as possible.

The IS doesn't have Omnipods so, at best the IS can try and make the chassis with the least negative quirks work.

Unfortunately, now without weapon specific quirks we're back to being outrageous outgunned in potential alpha power, DPS, and range.

NOT TO MENTION we still can't really load XL engines in IS 'mechs as all the clans have to do is blow away one side torso and game over, where as the IS has to either blow away two legs, two side torsos, or a center torso to kill a clan 'mech.

NOW, and please pay very close attention to what I'm about to say:

I would be fine with this in CW, IF, CW matches that were IS vs. Clan were limited to a 12v10, 260 ton vs 240 ton, drop deck.

The Clan should have superior tech, BUT, the IS should be able to bring superior numbers.

Without being able to do the above, then we MUST have equivalent weapon abilities, and survivability between both sides, otherwise, the Clans are just going to steam roll every season of CW.

The TYPICAL Clan centric response is that, "Oh no, everything is balanced, you IS pilots just suck", or, "Oh no, everything balanced, you IS guys just don't play organize", yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda...

Truth be told you can't sit there and say, "A few of the IS lasers have shorter burn durations so everything is balanced, L2P", and be expected to be taken seriously.

What PGI has done here has shown an incredible lack of understanding about this game and how it is actually played, if not an outright preference towards making and keeping the Clans as OP as possible.

It's been very frustrating to watch this happen over the years. Better to have NEVER brought the Clans into the game at all, and started the time line at 3025, for a 4th Succession Wars dynamic instead.

you didn't bother to read my post did you. there is an entire paragraph that clearly states that rather than giving is stupid weapon quirks, just change the weapons to bring them closer together.

Edited by gloowa, 12 September 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Well I am not quiting or anything but I actually am so disgusted with it I want to just ignore this whole rebalance thing.

Yep drama, but I sort of forced myself to make a couple comments on this balance thing so far.

I hope everyone figures it out and good luck. The sensor addition is a good one though.

[MechaBattler]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Which is why entire paragraph of my OP is addressing weapons.


Sooo, what you want is being able to spend 4 million on a locust and be able to kill 18 million heavy no problem. Sounds reasonable.



So, i say this quirks give real benefits. You say no they don't prove it. I prove it. You say it's even worse, because they give benefit. Logic.

I can kind of agree with what you are saying here, but you still seem not to grasp that this is first stage. to be built upon, until we deem all this changes together worth putting into live game. Instead, you flat out bash what i think is a good way and approach to making all mechs more or less equal, because you get sidetracked by weapons which are not relavant to what is being done here.


you didn't bother to read my post did you. there is an entire paragraph that clearly states that rather than giving is stupid weapon quirks, just change the weapons to bring them closer together.

I just don't agree with the idea that you can actually balance it without weapon quirks. Or that it should be handled on a separate.

[gloowa]

MechaBattler, on 12 September 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

I just don't agree with the idea that you can actually balance it without weapon quirks. Or that it should be handled on a separate.

Ok, let's assume for a second that we decided to make IS and clan weapons identical. Would you agree now, that giving is mechs hp and agility buffs would be enough to offset clan XL and bigger flexibility in loadouts due to omnis?

[L3mming2]

gloowa, on 12 September 2015 - 11:51 AM, said:

Which is why entire paragraph of my OP is addressing weapons.


Sooo, what you want is being able to spend 4 million on a locust and be able to kill 18 million heavy no problem. Sounds reasonable.



So, i say this quirks give real benefits. You say no they don't prove it. I prove it. You say it's even worse, because they give benefit. Logic.

I can kind of agree with what you are saying here, but you still seem not to grasp that this is first stage. to be built upon, until we deem all this changes together worth putting into live game. Instead, you flat out bash what i think is a good way and approach to making all mechs more or less equal, because you get sidetracked by weapons which are not relavant to what is being done here.


you didn't bother to read my post did you. there is an entire paragraph that clearly states that rather than giving is stupid weapon quirks, just change the weapons to bring them closer together.

i own KGC's dires and atly so no its not about the price but who would ever want to play the deliberatly underpowerd mechs??? i've got no problem with lights being harder to play, but they need to be competitive

now it says in paul's post the 45t wil have a ege on the 40t simpely becouse its heavyer... this might be there way of finaly making a balanced mm for groop que but i for one dont want lights to be shafted because of this stupid way of handeling ballance

Edited by L3mming2, 12 September 2015 - 12:11 PM.

[gloowa]

L3mming2, on 12 September 2015 - 12:08 PM, said:

i've got no problem with lights being harder to play, but they need to be competitive

And i have no problem doing 400+ damage on average in a public drop with a jenner whic loadout doesn't benefit from weapon quirks. (no, it's not a erll sniper). Granted, vs strong teams that primary gauss, it gets rekd superfast, but weapon quirks wouldn't help you there, would they? Let's face it: if you don't want to end up with something stupid like Firestarter A with equivalent of 25 tons of armor, lights need to be weaker be virtue of them being lights.

I think the issue is not that they are weaker in direct combat, rather than every single gamemode being a straight enagement. If we had some different gamemodes they could have their own place to shine. One extreme example would be Capture the Flag (no, i do not want CTF in mwo, it's just an example) Lights would still suck at combat, but they would be essential, someone has to carry the flag, right?

But that's again, something that is completely separate from current efforts which are to try and make all mechs of given weight of about same value. When that step is done, THEN is time to look at all XX tonners as a whole and maybe give them all something. If you are building a house, do you first build a foundation and then level the ground, or other way around?

Edited by gloowa, 12 September 2015 - 12:22 PM.