89 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

I believe it is a mistake to remove weapon quirks in their entirety. IS mechs overall have lost the risk vs. reward factor that they used to have. The Dragon-1N before, for example, could output a lot of damage, but was an easy to kill mech. This led to exciting gameplay where the risk of dying was high, but the potential reward for playing well and with skill was high as well.

With every mech quirked to improve survivability, the Dragon loses that aspect and isn't really a unique mech anymore. It just mainly has more structure and becomes more similar to other mechs.

Additionally, a lot of these IS mechs have so many similar quirks that they don't really feel very differentiated. Many of these quirks could've been rolled into basic movement stat changes instead flooding the list. I think it's better to market a mech as having a few very special attributes instead of a sea of attributes.

I'd recommend folding in many of the movement-related quirks into mech stats and adding at least some weapon quirks to mechs not so much to make bad mechs better, but to give some mechs some flavor.

At the heart of the problem is that Infotech simply does not begin to outweigh firepower changes. You don't need Infotech to shoot and damage mechs. You need firepower to use Infotech.

The battlegrid icons above the heads of mech are great though, although I know this is already mentioned but they should be color-coded and maybe only appear when the Target Info Overlay key is held.

[Telmasa]

1. Dragon 1N, easy to kill? No. Not even that easy to disarm unless you stood still and let it happen.
2. Dragons shouldn't be unique because of a Power Ranger Super Quirk (PRSQ for short). They should be unique for other reasons, and now can be.
3. There's no avoiding 'Mechs that feel similar when there are so many, especially in the case of the IS. Original Battletech was far worse. Now, 'Mechs will be unique for sensors, structure integrity, and mobility characteristics. I don't see what's wrong with that.
4. 'Mechs can have plenty "flavor" without PRSQ's.
5. "Infotech" matters alot when the "red dorito" is no longer assured to instantly appear. Many of the maps make it hard to distinguish a 'Mech from the background when not moving (one of many of the reasons ECM became so wildly popular). Even top-tier, full-meta, pure direct-fire players have a much harder time without sensors.

Edited by Telmasa, 11 September 2015 - 05:03 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Russ has said that a Tech(IS) to Tech(Clan) balance pass is in the works,
so their shouldnt be any more =Clan Lasers OP= comments anymore,

also remember weapon Quirks lowered TTK,
with out them TTK will be much higher now than before,

[Krivvan]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

5. "Infotech" matters alot when the "red dorito" is no longer assured to instantly appear. Many of the maps make it hard to distinguish a 'Mech from the background when not moving (one of many of the reasons ECM became so wildly popular). Even top-tier, full-meta, pure direct-fire players have a much harder time without sensors.

You don't need the red dorito to shoot mechs and kill them. You're wrong, top-tier, fulla-meta, pure direct-fire players don't rely on the sensors much and don't consider ECM to be a game-breaking deal.

And the Dragon dies in one or two alphas to the very exposed side torso. That's why the Dragon wasn't considered top tier even with its quirks.

[FupDup]

B-B-B-BUT KRIVVAN, WEAPON QUIRKS KILLED MY FAMILY WHEN I WAS JUST A BOY, AND ***** MY GIRLFRIEND AND ENSLAVED MY PEOPLE! THEY BURNED DOWN ORPHANAGES AND STOLE CANDY FROM BABIES! THEY HAD TO BE STOPPED, BRAH, ALL THOSE MECHS WITH 12.5% MISSILE COOLDOWN AND 5% BALLISTIC RANGE WERE SO OP MAN, SO BROKEN, MADE THE TTK SO LOOOOOOOOOOOOW.

[Vashramire]

Paul did say that they were going to implement weapon quirks again, but less extreme after they do the info warfare and take a look at weapons. It would be a ton to balance if they threw it all in at once. I'll take a slow iterative balance over time than extreme snap changes from trying to rebalance movement/info and weapons at the same time. One thing at a time.

[Telmasa]

I meant to also mention this:

Mech diversity will go UP, not *down*, because now 'Mechs aren't being shoehorned into using only certain weapons according to which quirks they got. People are now free to choose their loadouts without suffering that disadvantage.

The reverse happened when quirks were released: before, various loadouts could be found on a wide variety of 'Mechs; after quirks, nothing but Quirk Meta going on everywhere (obviously).

Let it be over.

Vashramire, on 11 September 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Paul did say that they were going to implement weapon quirks again, but less extreme after they do the info warfare and take a look at weapons. It would be a ton to balance if they threw it all in at once. I'll take a slow iterative balance over time than extreme snap changes from trying to rebalance movement/info and weapons at the same time. One thing at a time.

I don't think he said weapon quirks, he said weapon balance. As in tweaking the stats of the weapons themselves, not through Mech quirks.

[Krivvan]

Vashramire, on 11 September 2015 - 05:17 PM, said:

Paul did say that they were going to implement weapon quirks again, but less extreme after they do the info warfare and take a look at weapons. It would be a ton to balance if they threw it all in at once. I'll take a slow iterative balance over time than extreme snap changes from trying to rebalance movement/info and weapons at the same time. One thing at a time.

It already is too many things at once. They should've started fresh, then done a small pass with weapons, then movement, then infotech (which is the order of how much those things matter).

[Adiuvo]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

I meant to also mention this:

Mech diversity will go UP, not *down*, because now 'Mechs aren't being shoehorned into using only certain weapons according to which quirks they got. People are now free to choose their loadouts without suffering that disadvantage.

The reverse happened when quirks were released: before, various loadouts could be found on a wide variety of 'Mechs; after quirks, nothing but Quirk Meta going on everywhere (obviously).

Let it be over.

No, you literally just won't take the mech now. There's no reason to.

[Krivvan]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

Mech diversity will go UP, not *down*, because now 'Mechs aren't being shoehorned into using only certain weapons according to which quirks they got. People are now free to choose their loadouts without suffering that disadvantage.

It means those mechs won't get used anymore, period.

I'd rather only see Dragon-1Ns than see no Dragons at all. The Dragon quirks as they are now don't really make the Dragon any more special except still being a worse IS heavy compared to the others. You increase the survivability by armor sure (only by an alpha or so though), but why not just take a mech that has better survivability by not being shaped terribly?

[Andi Nagasia]

Adiuvo, on 11 September 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

No, you literally just won't take the mech now. There's no reason to.

i think its abit of a mixed bad but for a start i think its a good start, and dam that AS7-D,

[Krivvan]

I think what encourages diversity is being able to look through a list of mechs and thinking "oh cool, this is THE ballistic medium I want to pick up for all these special ballistic build ideas, ot this is the ballistic mech that does less damage but is safer, etc. etc." It doesn't help diversity to look at a bunch of other mechs, find that it essentially has the same sorts of quirks, except with worse hardpoints, and then just ignore it.

The quirk summaries should only highlight one or two special attributes about a mech, not be a big ugly list of structure buffs that every IS mech has.

[Telmasa]

Listen to yourselves.
All of you are pretty much saying "all that matters are quirks".
According to you, quirks 'create variety'. Quirks 'create balance'. Quirks this, quirks, that, quirks quirks quirks.
That's the problem with quirks.
This game should not be about quirks, which 'Mechs got the Power Ranger Super Quirks & which didn't.

Weapon balance is completely meaningless any time weapon quirks are involved.

If weapon balance becomes meaningless, all balance is meaningless.

This change is the first on a road to true formulaic assymetrical balance.

[Adiuvo]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Listen to yourselves.
All of you are pretty much saying "all that matters are quirks".
According to you, quirks 'create variety'. Quirks 'create balance'. Quirks this, quirks, that, quirks quirks quirks.
That's the problem with quirks.
This game should not be about quirks, which 'Mechs got the Power Ranger Super Quirks & which didn't.

Weapon balance is completely meaningless any time weapon quirks are involved.

If weapon balance becomes meaningless, all balance is meaningless.

This change is the first on a road to true formulaic assymetrical balance.

Due to the way various chassis are designed, there's no way to correct for inadequacies without specialized, personal, buffs. In other words quirks.

Edited by Adiuvo, 11 September 2015 - 05:31 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Guys we are forgetting Mechs are Allot like Vehicles we have now days,
Compacts-...Lights,
Cars-...........Medium,
Trucks-........Heavy,
SUVs-..........Assault,
you may only Drive Cars but Everyone has a Preference,
Chevy-Camaro / Dodge-Charger / Ford-Mustang,

you can now choose a mech you like not just for its Quirks but for its looks,
(assuming that they are all balanced Durability vs hitboxes, )

[Krivvan]

Andi Nagasia, on 11 September 2015 - 05:31 PM, said:

you can now choose a mech you like not just for its Quirks but for its looks,

Which is why we saw soooo many Kintaros before right? And Vindicators? And Trebuchets?

[Vashramire]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

I don't think he said weapon quirks, he said weapon balance. As in tweaking the stats of the weapons themselves, not through Mech quirks.

He specifically said weapon quirks during the stream tonight when asked about it. He said he wanted to do a weapons pass before putting any back in.

[MechaBattler]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 05:28 PM, said:

Listen to yourselves.
All of you are pretty much saying "all that matters are quirks".
According to you, quirks 'create variety'. Quirks 'create balance'. Quirks this, quirks, that, quirks quirks quirks.
That's the problem with quirks.
This game should not be about quirks, which 'Mechs got the Power Ranger Super Quirks & which didn't.

Weapon balance is completely meaningless any time weapon quirks are involved.

If weapon balance becomes meaningless, all balance is meaningless.

This change is the first on a road to true formulaic assymetrical balance.

You're just ignoring the fact that some mechs were never used because they were redundant or just plain bad. Until the quirk passes gave them a purpose or shored up their weaknesses. If two variants have almost identical hard points. How is giving one AC2 quirks, not a good thing?

They should limit specific weapon quirks to variants that are too similar. Because then you still have the option to run one of them whatever way you want. And gives the other a niche, a reason to exist. Not having weapon quirks is like throwing away your screwdriver. They have to use all the tools available to them. Even if it's to a much less effect. Like avoiding heat generation and cooldown quirks.

[Krivvan]

Giving a mech a niche it can play in is far more helpful for true variety than technically increasing the number of builds you can put on a mech.

Because otherwise all those extra builds you can make are just different variations of the same build: bad.

Edited by Krivvan, 11 September 2015 - 05:50 PM.

[Haydin]

Telmasa, on 11 September 2015 - 05:19 PM, said:

I meant to also mention this:

Mech diversity will go UP, not *down*, because now 'Mechs aren't being shoehorned into using only certain weapons according to which quirks they got. People are now free to choose their loadouts without suffering that disadvantage.

The reverse happened when quirks were released: before, various loadouts could be found on a wide variety of 'Mechs; after quirks, nothing but Quirk Meta going on everywhere (obviously).

Let it be over.



I don't think he said weapon quirks, he said weapon balance. As in tweaking the stats of the weapons themselves, not through Mech quirks.

I disagree. There are certain tactics that are just going to work well. For example, medium/long range, direct fire, high alpha damage with high mounted weapons. You do the most damage with the least exposure time. Certain mechs will better suit a tactic.

Weapon quirks are a potentially equalizing factor. Maybe what a mech is doing is not completely ideal, but maybe it does something SO well that it can break through that, or make up for weaker hardpoint mounts, limited mobility, etc. The current PTR quirks do not do that - the difference between 15hp on a component vs a 40%+ CD reduction is ENORMOUS. One gives you enough damage to actually win an exchange and combat high alpha with raw DPS, the other just means that you die in (maybe) one volley more. On a related note, this also means high mounts, especially those focused to one side of a mech, are now EVEN BETTER. +20 structure is not going to make up for exposing yourself on a mech with low-slung mounts.

Weapon quirks also meant that you could have a smaller mech designed around heavier weapons systems and they'd be potentially viable. Quirks made up for not being able to boat certain weapons. That's gone now.

Edited by Haydin, 11 September 2015 - 06:23 PM.