71 replies to this topic

[the wr3ck]

It's been run into the ground all the balancing. Buy this then get crap in return. The simple solution is to stop buying stuff. I'm not going to argue this any more. I stopped supporting the game after timber nerfs. End the end your going to be left with few hundred die hard table top fans. I've been keeping an eye on the game and this is just putting a nail in the coffin.

[oldradagast]

Pretty much.

The key thing that people supporting this change seem to forget is the amount of time and money (often real money) people have already poured into this game purchasing mechs with certain reasonably predictable and consistent performance and characteristics.

If this all happened in late 2012 or early 2013, it might be the start of something great (although back then, we didn't yet fully understand PGI's track record for balancing the game), but we're two years past the game's public release, much less the start of Open Beta. People have A LOT of money and time tied up in mechs they enjoy playing. Even if somebody, somehow, can offer some proof that this future vision is better than the current setup, breaking everyone's toys and replacing them with something else is a sure-fire way to kill off a game that already appeals almost entirely to a niche market of nostalgia fans.

[Rebas Kradd]

They're not going to leave the game unbalanced just because you bought something. That's silly.

[oldradagast]

Rebas Kradd, on 13 September 2015 - 02:29 PM, said:

They're not going to leave the game unbalanced just because you bought something. That's silly.

Based upon their lunacy on the test server, it sounds more like they are going to unbalance things despite people having bought what is apparently now a different product.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - they reserve the right to change whatever they want, when they want, per the NDA. And the customers reserve the right to tell them to sod off if they can't figure out that when a person buys a given mech and wastes days grinding it (and often two worthless cousins) out to get it leveled, he'd kind of like it to STAY whatever it was when he bought it.

But, hey - I'm sure MWO has plenty of customers to spare... they're all probably playing CW or something, but yeah... they are out there on an island somewhere... or, maybe the folks on Steam will get a laugh out of all this. Ugh.

Edited by oldradagast, 13 September 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[Omi_]

Back when the Huginn was new, I really tried to like it, mastered it, then sold it after objectively deciding that it wasn't a good, competitive mech at the time. After the Quirkening, I tried to reverse selling the Huginn through support, but in their words, to reverse the operation of selling an MC mech is unfair to other players who have spent money in a similar fashion, only to sell something because it later turns out to under-perform.

I'm looking at this Huginn now and am wondering if it's going to get put back to where it started. If it gets over-nerfed:


I get why this policy exists, but the balance ecosystem definitely discourages MC purchases in the long run. I find the issue of balancing this game to be a fascinating problem, but deciding what to purchase with MC should be a decision made from the heart, not from the head.

Edited by Hornsby, 13 September 2015 - 02:55 PM.

[oldradagast]

Hornsby, on 13 September 2015 - 02:52 PM, said:

I get why this policy exists, but the balance ecosystem definitely discourages MC purchases in the long run. I find the issue of balancing this game to be a fascinating problem, but deciding what to purchase with MC should be a decision made from the heart, not from the head.

Precisely. This has been a festering problem since about a year ago when the Clans arrived. On delivery, they rendered nearly every IS mech useless. People who bought IS mechs complained that they purchased a product that was supposed to be viable and fun, while people who bought Clan mechs complained in a similar fashion against nerfs. Then, started the Quirkening, for better or for worse, and the great Unbalancing is at least the 3rd iteration of Quirk passes. Round and round it goes, with everything changing a few times a year. At what point do people just stop spending money because they have no idea what they are actually buying or how long it will stay that way? And that perfectly valid question is the key reason why this whole idea is such a bad one to introduce 2 years after a game's public release.

Edited by oldradagast, 13 September 2015 - 03:02 PM.

[Vashramire]

the wr3ck, on 13 September 2015 - 01:48 PM, said:

It's been run into the ground all the balancing. Buy this then get crap in return. The simple solution is to stop buying stuff. I'm not going to argue this any more. I stopped supporting the game after timber nerfs. End the end your going to be left with few hundred die hard table top fans. I've been keeping an eye on the game and this is just putting a nail in the coffin.

Really do we need doom and gloom posts? I find it really hard to empathise with you when you started to stop supporting the game after they nerfed something that was blatantly overtuned. If you bought it with the intention of being brokenly strong then you are a fool to complain about balance. If you can't handle it after the nerfs and can't see that it's still really strong then you are a bad pilot. This PTS is the first step towards balancing around roles without considering weapon quirks because they threw mech stats into a formula and it churned out these proposed info/movement quirks.

If you find them lacking then give feedback like the forum is for. "Stop trying to balance things I like!" is not good feedback. Things could change drastically by the time this goes live if it even does. Yes it sucks that if you spend money and something you bought gets changed in a way you don't like. That's the gamble on anything in life. The thing is we are comparing mechs based on the crazy balance of live. Which it still isn't. If this had been how they had started quirks without all the weapon quirks long ago, this would be a straight buff to most every mech aside from the random sensor quirks.

This is the first step to multiple passes. It's a process. If you want to be a part of the process, then giving helpful feedback towards the direction you think the game should go is helpful. Saying this rebalance is going to make you stop buying stuff after you said you already stopped long ago is just childish over dramatization for attention.

[XX Sulla XX]

I know its crazy but you might wait until they have a rebalance instead of an idea for one they test.

[Andi Nagasia]

Everyone Agrees this game is unbalanced, so what are our options?
PGI can ether Try something new and rebalance the game to make playing it a batter experience,
or they can ignore balance all together, focus on Mech Packs and Mech reskins and slowly let MWO die,
Personally i would Rather PGI Try to make this Game better than it is, i want a Better MWO,

[oldradagast]

XX Sulla XX, on 13 September 2015 - 03:21 PM, said:

I know its crazy but you might wait until they have a rebalance instead of an idea for one they test.

If somebody seriously offered an "idea" to tune up your car by setting it on fire, would you think "eh, he'll get it right next time." before politely declining?

This WAS their idea for balance, or at least half of it, since they apparently think that this "balance" can also be tested with valid results without seeing the weapon quirks, which is nuts.

That being said, if taken alone and ignoring the IS vs. Clan issues, even looking at the mechs within a single chassis line, there is no rhyme or reason to anything that's been presented on the PTS. Sure, the next pass may be better, but what excuse is there for THIS pass getting out the door and seeing the light of play?

Edited by oldradagast, 13 September 2015 - 03:28 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

@oldradagast,
we knew it was gonna be a wash for the first test,
Russ in the Townhall, said that it wasnt ready, but he wanted the MWO community to see it, to try it out,
Russ wanted OUR feed back, this is the most open about Balance PGI has ever been,
so the question is can WE the MWO community handle this as Constructive Adults,

[ShinobiHunter]

I honestly planned to buy Marauders when the pre-order opened up... Now I think I may wait and see how this all pans out. I want to believe PGI won't ruin this game, but I'm not betting any money on it just yet. PGI needs to communicate better what their intentions are with each round of the PTS. Is this really just to test some values and the Infotech system, or is this actually what they are planning to drop on us... I'm going to wait and see

[Mogney]

Everyone agree? Huh? Balance is the best its ever been. Stay the course, keep tweaking. If this game is losing revenue, its not due to balance, its due to a lack of fun end game content

[Astrocanis]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

@oldradagast,
we knew it was gonna be a wash for the first test,
Russ in the Townhall, said that it wasnt ready, but he wanted the MWO community to see it, to try it out,
Russ wanted OUR feed back, this is the most open about Balance PGI has ever been,
so the question is can WE the MWO community handle this as Constructive Adults,

In my mind, there's a difference between seeing it and trying it out and deploying an obviously unworkable product. Some of the quirks made so little sense that it's hard to imagine it just being a typo. And, in the event it WAS a typo, the fact that nobody even bothered to look at the numbers before they were posted is ridiculous.

In fact, some of the things they did make less than non-sense. Nerfing the turn rate of the Commando? Taking LRM mechs, like the catapult, and nerfing the daylights out of scanning? That goes right past careless.

[XX Sulla XX]

oldradagast, on 13 September 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

If somebody seriously offered an "idea" to tune up your car by setting it on fire, would you think "eh, he'll get it right next time." before politely declining?

This WAS their idea for balance, or at least half of it, since they apparently think that this "balance" can also be tested with valid results without seeing the weapon quirks, which is nuts.

That being said, if taken alone and ignoring the IS vs. Clan issues, even looking at the mechs within a single chassis line, there is no rhyme or reason to anything that's been presented on the PTS. Sure, the next pass may be better, but what excuse is there for THIS pass getting out the door and seeing the light of play?

Ya not an extreme over reaction or anything. This was a first step. Up front they admited it might be wrong. They admitted it might need HUGE changes. They said they would not use it unless it proved better than wht we have now. So ya maybe let them work on it some.

[oldradagast]

XX Sulla XX, on 13 September 2015 - 03:57 PM, said:

Ya not an extreme over reaction or anything. This was a first step. Up front they admited it might be wrong. They admitted it might need HUGE changes. They said they would not use it unless it proved better than wht we have now. So ya maybe let them work on it some.

So, if you hired a general contractor to work on your house, and his first proposed plan consisted of basically destroying the place, you'd just shrug your shoulders, hand him more money, and assume he'll get it right next time or Soon ™, right?

Come on, people! The PTS data didn't end up on the server by accident. The dog didn't eat the good copy of the XML file. This was not an early April Fool's joke, and nobody who respects their customers would intentionally put up trash that in no way resembles their final plan and ask people to test it.

No, the lunacy on the PTS was something PGI considered GOOD ENOUGH to reveal to the public so we could test it. The fact that it so far misses the mark in every possible way, from solving balance issues to simple quality control, speaks volumes, and it should NOT be translated into, "Eh, they'll get it right eventually. Now, I'll go buy a Mauler and hope it doesn't change into a totally different mech after I start playing it!" Ugh!

Edited by oldradagast, 13 September 2015 - 04:34 PM.

[oldradagast]

Andi Nagasia, on 13 September 2015 - 03:35 PM, said:

@oldradagast,
we knew it was gonna be a wash for the first test,
Russ in the Townhall, said that it wasnt ready, but he wanted the MWO community to see it, to try it out,
Russ wanted OUR feed back, this is the most open about Balance PGI has ever been,
so the question is can WE the MWO community handle this as Constructive Adults,

If this was a wash and was no real reflection of anything they intend to do in the final product, except slap some odd sensor bonuses and penalties all over the place, then why did they waste everyone's time with it?

And they even failed in that one, simple task, since the "info warfare" component really does nothing but remove LRM's from the game completely and shift the meta even more to pinpoint, direct fire weapons, if that were even possible.

[Vashramire]

oldradagast, on 13 September 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

So, if you hired a general contractor to work on your house, and his first proposed plan consisted of basically destroying the place, you'd just shrug your shoulders, hand him more money, and assume he'll get it right next time or Soon ™, right?

Come on, people! The PTS data didn't end up on the server by accident. The dog didn't eat the good copy of the XML file. This was not an early April Fool's joke, and nobody who respects their customers would intentionally put up trash that in no way resembles their final plan and ask people to test it.

No, the lunacy on the PTS was something PGI considered GOOD ENOUGH to reveal to the public so we could test it. The fact that it so far misses the mark in every possible way, from solving balance issues to simple quality control, speaks volumes, and it should NOT be translated into, "Eh, they'll get it right eventually. Now, I'll go buy a Mauler and hope it doesn't change into a totally different mech after I start playing it!" Ugh!

[oldradagast]

Vashramire, on 13 September 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

Ah, yes. Internet photos - the last resort response of people who can't address the point being made.

[Omi_]

I hope I'm not adding to all the doomsaying around here. I'm glad that PGI is taking this route to get the game balanced, once and for all so to speak. All I wished to contribute was that the OP's sentiment isn't an outlier. PGI should really try to get this right and avoid another quirkening in the future.