8 replies to this topic

[Sleipnir]

So first off, I'm not convinced by the approach here with the whole mech rebalance 4-pillar ideology. However I've always had a bit of faith in PGI, and since the split with "those who shall not be named" I feel they've gone from strength to strength. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

The problem: PGI want to bring infotech into the game as a balancing feature of chassis. Infotech in and of itself however isn't meaningful.

Why? Because I don't need to know what's on that Timber Wolf to know that shooting out its side torso will knock out half its firepower. Likewise, I don't care what's on that hunchback, I'm going to hit the right torso and effectively neutralise him.

Solution/idea: make info gathering a big deal. Like, a really big deal. My thought was to have weapons locked until you have a target (press the magic R button).

How does it work? Well you are giving serious meaning to those lights who are scouting, to those new sensor quirks, to tactical movement, communication and teamwork.

It would also make pop tarting and high alpha corner poking much more difficult - not impossible, but would rely on more than just one player to pull off.

BEFORE YOU FREAK OUT!
This was a simple out of the box idea I came up with as PGI has introduced the concept of infotech and rather than say "omg no!" I'd rather find ways to add depth to the game.

I can see issues with the idea, such as ECM being totally broken, but I feel it should be reworked anyway, and hopefully some of you have ideas for that?

Perhaps rather than hard locking weapons, you introduce a firing delay instead? Or damage spread if you don't have a target, etc?

What are your thoughts? Please keep it constructive!

[NeoCodex]

You have a point. This system is used in Star Conflict, a spaceship arena shooter much like MWO, where certain ships had faster and better targeting sensors than others, with faster scouts being significantly faster at acquiring target locks, while slower fighters and frigates had longer durations respectively (but with more powerful weapons).

Point being: you did not get a weapon lead indicator until you had a target lock, and target locking took some time, and not all ships had equal sensor range. You could only share dorrito location to your allies, but it still took some time for each individual to acquire their targeting data. Therefore, as you suggested, he could not hit the target until the lead indicator showed up, without it, it was pretty much impossible to hit anything (even a stationary target, your weapon convergence was completely screwed if you did not have a target lock, which makes sense!).

This made a lot of sense in a space shooter with fast moving ships, but in MWO? Not so much, as mentioned you don't even need the targeting data if everybody is just using FLD weapons to pinpoint the weak spots at the mech sillhouettes. As long as the game is played this way, information warfare has no real meaning when your weapons always have perfect convergence and accuracy without any target lock-on. So the buffs and debuffs to infotech willbe largely ignored when chosing your meta flavor, and chassis with other values will always be picked over the infotech.

Edited by NeoCodex, 14 September 2015 - 03:07 AM.

[oldradagast]

Until they remove pinpoint damage from the game, info-tech will have zero meaning unless they break the game.

- Current "infotech" implementation: "Oh, look, there's a bad guy, I think. I don't have time to waste getting a sensor reading on him - glad I didn't bring LRM's, lolz - but I can still shoot off his right torso with my two Gauss plus lasers pinpoint damage combo."

Yep, that does nothing except remove LRM's from the game completely. In the current game design, to make it meaningful, they'd have to do something stupid more like this:

- Horrid "infotech" implementation: "Ahh! Something is shooting me from across that open field over there. Too bad I can't see him because I didn't bring a wimpy scout mech and neither did anyone else on my PUG team. Oh, I died without ever seeing what killed me. Well, at least I didn't bring LRM's, lolz!"

Yep, that's an even worse idea, but it would sure make infotech meaningful, sadly.

Edited by oldradagast, 14 September 2015 - 03:18 AM.

[NeoCodex]

oldradagast, on 14 September 2015 - 03:17 AM, said:

Until they remove pinpoint damage from the game, info-tech will have zero meaning unless they break the game.

- Current "infotech" implementation: "Oh, look, there's a bad guy, I think. I don't have time to waste getting a sensor reading on him - glad I didn't bring LRM's, lolz - but I can still shoot off his right torso with my two Gauss plus lasers pinpoint damage combo."

- Horrid "infotech" implementation: "Ahh! Something is shooting me from across that open field over there. Too bad I can't see him because I didn't bring a wimpy scout mech and neither did anyone else on my PUG team. Oh, I died without ever seeing what killed me.

Yep, that's an even worse idea, but it would sure make infotech meaningful, sadly.

This is what I was describing, too. If it works like that, it makes complete sense in a space shooter where weapons cannot converge or hit anything without a lock and lead indicator (go try it Star Conflict or Star Citizen, try hitting anything without a lock - infotech is huge deal there because weapon convergence and big distances and speeds). Trying to immitate that in MWO with perfect convergence does not work out the same way.

Edited by NeoCodex, 14 September 2015 - 03:25 AM.

[Sleipnir]

@neocodex : the idea of not having a target reticule is an interesting one.

@oldragast : as I mentioned, I know there's problems with the idea, but I think it could work. As you say, info doesn't matter at all in the game right now. That to me means something needs to change.

And what's stopping you hitting that mech? If you can see him, you can target him and therefore kill him. If you're argument is that you'd be dead first, then TTK and weapon balance are off, IMO.

[NeoCodex]

Yeah, with so many hitscan and fast projectile FLD weapons it is "too easy" to hit anything. As opposed to if you would really need a lock for your weapons to converge - that would be meaningful, and I don't think it would break the game, but they would have to change how ECM works(maybe just slow down locks or just get rid of Angel functionality); so infotech has very little meaning; with everything mostly being under ECM, if you have a target of opportunity you will shoot at it (with perfectly converged guaranteed hit) no matter what anyway.

It's like they are implementing the infotech aspect to the mechs and use it as balancing tool reliant on.. nothing. An information warfare, that is not present in the game. So pretty much any infotech quirks are, and will remain, completely useless in the state of the game as it is - until we get a real meaning for having a target lock. As always, PGI implemented something half-arsed again and without any real meaning to it.

Pardon my expression but that's just how it is. Having the infotech quirks is only half of what the infotech system should be. It's the whole "clan invasion" story all over agan. There is nothing to invade, and there is no purpose to having an advantage in infotech as well.

Edited by NeoCodex, 14 September 2015 - 03:44 AM.

[Sleipnir]

I think ultimately, it's about ways to stop that instant, massive alpha strike from mechs which can typically disappear by the time you try to react. This is especially so for clan mechs, as they can typically carry more firepower and move quicker than their IS counterparts.

PGI are bringing in this idea of Infotech - Information Warfare if you want to go back to the original terminology - and I think it's interesting. Simply changing how quick mechs can get target info isn't going to cut it though. It needs to have a genuine, tactical and tangible impact on how the game is played.

[Krasnovian]

I've always believed that targeting locks should mean the same thing for every weapon, in this case convergence would start set at a range of say, 500m, and would not change unless a target was locked. Once locked convergence would conform to the range of the locked target.

The effect of this would be ECM having an effect on ALL mechs, more people using the old "R" button, and a great reduction on pinpoint alpha especially at extreme ranges.

Edited by Krasnovian, 14 September 2015 - 01:50 PM.

[Mystere]

Please go here.