9 replies to this topic

[IronEricP]

Having played MWO since closed beta, several of the earlier Mechwarrior titles, and TT Battletech, I've seen lots of highs and lows when it comes to balance.

One thing I want to make perfectly clear here is that I am NOT calling for nerfs to this or that. Nor am I calling for buffs. I fear that may be part of the problem.

At the end of the day, Clan mechs, even 2nd line non-omnis, have several advantages in the tech department. Two well designed/outfitted mechs of equal tonnage and similarly skilled pilots go at it, one in an IS mech and one in a Clan, the Clan mech has an advantage. Not only is this unsurprising, but it is also what makes Clan tech, well, Clan tech. I prefer playing IS mechs, and true, I want to be able to compete vs strong clan mechs, but I don't want my mech buffed to sillyness with weapon quirks and I don't want the clan player to deal with nerfs to what should be a great, tough mech either. Clan mechs ARE supposed to be better, after all.

And that's fine, if handled correctly.

It may be time to reconsider team size when playing clans, both for solo dropping and CW. Note, I specifically did not mention GROUP dropping in standard matches, I'll get back to that in a minute...

A classic solution to the balance issue (for TT and lore) has long been to let IS have a slight numerical advantage to make up for the fact that even with the advantage of numbers, THEY ARE STILL USUALLY OUTGUNNED. 10 Clan mechs will usually still have more damage potential than 12 similar IS mechs. If CW matches were to use this limitation, IS mechs would not need such large weapon quirks just to compete; instead, they would have more help.
Solo dropping, where you don't pick who's on your team anyways, could be arranged into IS 12s and Clan 10s, which would then be dropped vs EITHER config to a rough parity.

Now, to the elephant in the room, the group drops. This is trickier, since not all groups in standard drops are using the same tech all the time, and should not be denied the ability to play with each other. There are several options, such as treating clan mechs as heavier than they truly are (something that was mentioned by the devs long ago but was either never implemented or was done to unnoticed effect). Another is to simply let group drops stay as they are, as both teams would have mixed tech (but more people would feel forced to drop clan tech in this instance).

I won't pretend to have the perfect answer to all factors involved, but I do know this.
People who play clan tech DO have a right to feel like their Timberwolf is strong. So does someone piloting an Orion. Making them perfectly even though, is, in my opinion, doing a disservice to both, and will eventually lead to a blander game for all.

So while I do feel that the new infotech ideas have merit, I don't think that quirks alone can solve this issue. I know 10v12 has been considered and rejected in the past for MWO, but with over a year of CW and Clan mech data to look at, I think it merits another look.

[Lily from animove]

so 12 IFR's outclass 12 FS9's?

The lack of chassis balance does not even allow any IS vs Clanbalance, because thenw e end up with 3 chassis on each side playing against each other. And if that si goign to eb, we could also keep the game as it is. But PGI wants to create balance, and with this in mind there should not be only a handfull or less chassis viable. In worst case there should be a hand full NOTbeing viable.

Also don't forget public queue, there is mixtech vs mixtech. And its where the majority of players plays the game. That alone is a reason why chassis balance should exist.

[Dimento Graven]

Lily from animove, on 14 September 2015 - 06:53 AM, said:

so 12 IFR's outclass 12 FS9's?

The lack of chassis balance does not even allow any IS vs Clanbalance, because thenw e end up with 3 chassis on each side playing against each other. And if that si goign to eb, we could also keep the game as it is. But PGI wants to create balance, and with this in mind there should not be only a handfull or less chassis viable. In worst case there should be a hand full NOTbeing viable.

Also don't forget public queue, there is mixtech vs mixtech. And its where the majority of players plays the game. That alone is a reason why chassis balance should exist.

I agree with the OP, I've been saying something very similar for quite some time, as you well know.

My thoughts:

10v12 should be a CW thing only. CW is where you can have your true lore based battles and allowing Clans the greater tech while allowing the IS its greater numbers would do just that and add a flavor to CW that would add some interest.

As far as any non-CW drops, let 'em be 12v12, chances are with mixed Clan/IS dropping each side will end up fairly balanced, most of the time, just like right now, anyway so there's no need to really worry about it.

PLUS, what happens in the Public Queues stays there. Once a match is over, everyone re-readies and jumps back into battle. In CW, where a win or loss can determine who owns a planet, and eventually, receives benefits of the planet, it's more important to bring about as much balance as possible.

[Lily from animove]

Dimento Graven, on 14 September 2015 - 07:30 AM, said:

As far as any non-CW drops, let 'em be 12v12, chances are with mixed Clan/IS dropping each side will end up fairly balanced, most of the time, just like right now, anyway so there's no need to really worry about it.

Thats wrong, when you clearly accept better and less better mechs by tech to exist, the public queue will soon only be clan vs clan and all the IS players simply leave the game, because the mechs they like and own have no point. Instead liek now having a hand full of clanners and a handfull of IS mechs dominating you just erase the IS mechs from bein seen as the current underdogs are nowhere to find in the public queue. That design is just madness in its core.

[Dimento Graven]

Lily from animove, on 14 September 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Thats wrong, when you clearly accept better and less better mechs by tech to exist, the public queue will soon only be clan vs clan and all the IS players simply leave the game, because the mechs they like and own have no point. Instead liek now having a hand full of clanners and a handfull of IS mechs dominating you just erase the IS mechs from bein seen as the current underdogs are nowhere to find in the public queue. That design is just madness in its core.

I'd say that you are wrong judging the current queue.

We already have have accepted better and less better mechs by tech to exist. Most of the current Clan weapons weigh less, take less crits, hit at longer distances (and in the case of C-LRMs at shorter range too) and for more damage than their IS equivalents. Clan XL's are capable of losing an ST loss and still being battle capable, unlike IS equivalents which if you lose an ST with an XL engine, your match is over.

All the above is true and we STILL have people dropping in the public queues with IS 'mechs, and we're talking people dropping in non-uberquirked versions of Hunchbacks, Cicada's, Jagers, Catapults, etc. etc. etc.

I don't see that changing at all, and can't see how you can justify your opinion given the current facts as they are now.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 14 September 2015 - 08:48 AM.

[Panthros]

I think the only way to balance IS VS Clan is to forward the timeline to minimally 3056 but perhaps at late as 3067. The challenge is CW is focused on clan invasion, so this makes that idea problematic.

At some point PGI is going to have to realize the idea of 10 vs 12 is a must for Clan VS IS. It is OK if the tech is better, IS always had numbers on their side and as IS tech gets better, there becomes the balance everyone wants. I wish I knew why PGI is stubborn on the 10vs12.

[Last Of The Brunnen-G]

I think the best way to balance this game is with a kind of Battlevalue individual for every mech.
Every chassi or omnipod has a value. Weapons have a value dependend on the hardpoint location. Engine, armor, ammo, heat disipation, modules.... everything has an value.
The weapons value should be a multiplicator too, so a timber with two ERSML should have a very low BV.
So for example a Timberwolf has a very good BV, in this way you can't fit 12 of them in a team. The team has a maximum BV. If you just play Timbers, than you have to play with less Mechs. The game mechanic could prefent us from games with 12 lights vs 7 Assault, trying to put mechs with lower BV together with higher BV.

To balance the rewards, we can make kills and kill assists dependend on the (own BV/enemy BV), this could make it very rewarding for good players to use a low BV mech and stop to many players from using high BV mechs only.
If you could manage to kill 3 timbers in your locust, you would get A LOT of c-bills.

For groups with high BV players, we could have a option to choose a higher team BV (maybe 150%). But your enemys would have this advantage too.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 14 September 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

I'd say that you are wrong judging the current queue.

We already have have accepted better and less better mechs by tech to exist. Most of the current Clan weapons weigh less, take less crits, hit at longer distances (and in the case of C-LRMs at shorter range too) and for more damage than their IS equivalents. Clan XL's are capable of losing an ST loss and still being battle capable, unlike IS equivalents which if you lose an ST with an XL engine, your match is over.

All the above is true and we STILL have people dropping in the public queues with IS 'mechs, and we're talking people dropping in non-uberquirked versions of Hunchbacks, Cicada's, Jagers, Catapults, etc. etc. etc.

I don't see that changing at all, and can't see how you can justify your opinion given the current facts as they are now.

But, but, but ... no one wants to be cannon fodder for the Clan uber1337s. At least that's what the "community" keeps saying. They're all here. As such, I suggest you pay that thread a visit.

Edited by Mystere, 14 September 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Papaspud]

hahahaha 10v12????? The clan cried like babies when they gave the IS 10 extra tons, now you think it would be OK if the IS had 2 extra mechs? Idea= DOA. Can't have those dirty IS being able to fight back.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 14 September 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

But, but, but ... no one wants to be cannon fodder for the Clan uber1337s. At least that's what the "community" keeps saying. They're all here. As such, I suggest you pay that thread a visit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I've seen the arguments since the ORIGINAL inception of the Clans in MWO, and every time they say that "no one will want to play IS in the public queues because Clans will be OP", I keep pointing out that Clans are already OP, and yet we STILL have people playing IS.

It's an argument that has yet to have any consistent merit.

EVEN NOW, with Clans being OP >>AND<< being allowed to fight 12v12 against IS in CW, people STILL play IS.

Yes, IS is losing the battle, and will continue to do so if Clans are allowed to be OP and bring the same numbers to the battle as IS, and yes absolutely EVENTUALLY the IS players will lose interest in playing against people who are 'easy mode exploiters' and just not bother showing up for CW. This is true ONLY BECAUSE in CW winning and losing actually matters beyond how much you earn at the end of the match.

BUT, allow the IS to bring greater numbers and weight to CW to balance the Clan OP tech and suddenly the gaming dynamic is as it was originally conceived back in the late 80's early 90's when the Clans were introduced into BT, and THAT I think could be MUCH MORE FUN than what we have now, and yes, I've exclusively played as IS in CW, and continue to drop in IS 'mechs in the public queues.

Papaspud, on 14 September 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

hahahaha 10v12????? The clan cried like babies when they gave the IS 10 extra tons, now you think it would be OK if the IS had 2 extra mechs? Idea= DOA. Can't have those dirty IS being able to fight back.

Which harkens back to my calling people who play exclusively Clan as, "easy mode exploiters".

They think they're OH SO GOOD at this game, until we start approaching actual balance, and then they cry to high heaven about how unfair and OP the IS 'mechs are.

BALANCE != OP, but to the Clan logic, it somehow does...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 14 September 2015 - 12:01 PM.