11 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

Perfect Convergence + Pin point = Not fun.

This isn't a new thought, but it was the first thought I had when I heard about the new MADs, one with 7 Energy hard points. "OH, great, another Laser Vomit." And why shouldn't it be a laser vomit, it makes perfect sense.

Part 1
LASERS:
Unlimited Ammo
Low Weight
Hit Scan (Instant contact whether it's right in front of you, or out at 1400 meters..)
Piling on Heatsinks isn't really a problem.

This results in a mech exposing itself for a second to get a look, and coming away with armor in the red, or gone over a component. Not exactly fun, IMO.

How do we adjust it?

Well, it doesn't make sense give it a travel time... it is a laser after all. (Speed of light n' all that.)
We don't want to mess with weight (some people like stock builds..)
Making "ammo" for lasers is a bit silly. (though it would be possible- that's just a can of worms.)

Well, here is my thought: Ablative diffusion for regular and Extended Range lasers.
As a laser burns over a component, like a left torso, the longer it stays on that component, the more reduced the damage is. (In Lore, the Pulse laser was made in order to be more accurate, and also to allow time for evaporated ablative armor to disperse.)

Example: (Place Holder numbers)
Take the Clan ER Large Laser.
11 Damage
1.5 burn time.

0.73damage per .1 second.
After .3 seconds, it would go down to .63 damage per .1 second
After .3 more seconds, it would go down to .53 damage per .1 second
After .3 more seconds, it would go down to .43 damage per .1 second
After .3 more seconds, it would go down to .33 damage per .1 second

So, a Clan ER Large laser left on the same component would go from doing 11 damage to 7.95
first .3 = 2.19
second.3 = 1.89
third .3 = 1.59
fourth.3 = 1.29
last .3 = 0.99
An IS Medium Laser (.55 per .1) would go from 5 damage to 4.05
First .3 = 1.65
Second.3 = 1.35
Third .3 = 1.05

Moving to another component will bring the rate of damage back to the first .3.

I'm not going to say this is a perfect idea, but I am trying to think of ways to make the lasers potentially less powerful without increasing the heat on them (which just relegates them to mechs that can mount more DHS to vomit) and without increasing the burn time. (The 2s Clan ERLL was just not viable because you couldn't shoot it without shooting your team mate.) Or at least to make it so their full power cannot be delivered into a single component.

Thoughts?

Part 2:
PERFECT CONVERGENCE.
This one is considerably more difficult, as RNG is generally considered bad in a skill based game by many people, myself included. However, having perfect pinpoint convergence is a problem when a mech that has 600 health can die taking only 150 damage, yet we also want to avoid "Death by 1000 tiny cuts" boring game play.

We know adjusted convergence just doesn't work. (Anyone who was here for the first iteration knows first hand.)

I considered the locked Torso directions, but I think that would just make hardpoint placement that much more influential. Not something I want.


So, this is my thought: Weapon Sway tied to movement.
If a mech is standing still: Convergence like what we have now, center screen and everything.
If a mech is walking 4/6: Generally stable reticle, that "burps" every foot fall. (That sensation your whole cockpit feels with foot falls...not too badly.)
If a mech is running 4/6: Reticle never still (even if player not moving mouse) always bouncing around a bit. (Something like what we have with JJs or MASC, but not nearly as fast) Stutters on footfalls. (Violent shift)

While Jumping, what we have right now works for me, although it could be refined a little bit. (It isn't very immersive.) It could also use a lasting effect.. like .5 seconds for every second the JJs were fired (Cumulatively) unless the mech lands on solid terrain.
Landing should give a sizable burp.
MASC use works for me as it is.

I also think Arm Lock should go. (I use it extensively because it is there, and is a gimme for the long range game..) It exacerbates the convergence problem when the arms and the torso always point at the exact same location.

Thoughts?

[Mystere]

Have you seen this?

[Chuck Jager]

Arm lock gone would be good, but the lower the weight class the quicker the arms stop moving and the less shake while moving.

This could make torso mounts a more must have and nerf arm only builds more.

[El Bandito]

There are also two ways to curb large energy-only alphas.

1. Fixed max heat capacity un-affected by heatsink counts. Perhaps max value of 30 heat? Heatsinks will only affect heat reduction.

2. Progressive heat penalty like mechs slowing down, targeting lock gets lost, losing convergence, HUD flickering etc... Such immersive feature has been neglected for too damn long.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 September 2015 - 05:05 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

I wonder how peoples memories are so short. Before clans and quirks, large IS energy boats SUCKED. they were bad, and Ballistic (+PPC) boats were king. With weapon quirks looking to go the way of the dodo, i expect that to happen again.. (depending what they do to clans for balance)

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Give me rotary AC and rocket launchers. And i eat every laser-vomit-boats.

[Livewyr]

Mystere, on 14 September 2015 - 08:35 PM, said:

Have you seen this?

I just did. However it made no mention of ECM, which already invalidates LRMs at range, hampering all other weapons makes it God Mode for light mechs.

Chuck YeaGurr, on 14 September 2015 - 10:08 PM, said:

Arm lock gone would be good, but the lower the weight class the quicker the arms stop moving and the less shake while moving.

This could make torso mounts a more must have and nerf arm only builds more.

Could do one of two things.
A: Except that as the price for the increased agility of the arm reticle.
B: Adjust the torso reticle to have a big burp as well, in a different way. (Both Torsos and Arms receive the shock of ground contact, they just react in different ways.)

El Bandito, on 14 September 2015 - 11:58 PM, said:

There are also two ways to curb large energy-only alphas.

1. Fixed max heat capacity un-affected by heatsink counts. Perhaps max value of 30 heat? Heatsinks will only affect heat reduction.

2. Progressive heat penalty like mechs slowing down, targeting lock gets lost, HUD flickering etc... Such immersive feature has been neglected for too damn long.

1: Perhaps if values were returned to TT, but sadly I think that would just invalidate energy in favor of ballistics. Worth a try though. Small laser lights would still rule the day..
2: Yes. Absolutely yes. (I believe at one point, when I still put a lot of effort into this game, I wrote up a massive TL;DR on how to implement both knock downs, and an overheat degradation on performance.

Widowmaker1981, on 15 September 2015 - 02:59 AM, said:

I wonder how peoples memories are so short. Before clans and quirks, large IS energy boats SUCKED. they were bad, and Ballistic (+PPC) boats were king. With weapon quirks looking to go the way of the dodo, i expect that to happen again.. (depending what they do to clans for balance)

Your memory might be shorter. It wasn't that Laser boats sucked, they just sucked *when compared to* the Gauss/PPC pinpoint meta that worked because PPCs had reduced heat and they had roughly similar projectile speeds.

Laser vomit was always good (barring hit reg), it just wasn't as good as PPC stalkers and Ballistic/PPC meta during their "time."

[Joseph Mallan]

Quote

LARGEST PROBLEM WITH GAME PLAY, IMO:

Is player expectation.

[Livewyr]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 September 2015 - 03:53 AM, said:

Is player expectation.

I might agree, if I didn't see it done better before.

[Catra Lanis]

Not an expert on lore but isn't alpha used mostly in two situations. 1) Finishing salvo 2) Desperate last ditch gamble. I don't find alpha-cooldown/hide alpha-cooldown/hide alpha-cooldown/hide to be very immersive or fun. I haven't used alpha in 6 months, it's true. You see the mechs I run aren't suited to it because they can't boat. By the same token some mechs/chassis will be handicapped.

Why can't we just say alpha with more than 10% heat=shutdown regardless of mech. A brute force solution, sure but it's the same for everyone.

[sycocys]

El Bandito, on 14 September 2015 - 11:58 PM, said:

There are also two ways to curb large energy-only alphas.

2. Progressive heat penalty like mechs slowing down, targeting lock gets lost, HUD flickering etc... Such immersive feature has been neglected for too damn long.

Not opposed at all to the progressive damage reduction, so long as it still can balance with cannons to a certain degree.

Pinpoint convergence as we have it just sucks, really sucks a lot of the sim/BT feel out of the game.

Really like the heat penalty idea.

Was going to suggest adding energy to work in addition to heat. Weapons/tech/movement and so forth all stack on an energy scale as well as the heat scale. Might be to complicated for the casual players though.

[El Bandito]

sycocys, on 15 September 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Not opposed at all to the progressive damage reduction, so long as it still can balance with cannons to a certain degree.

Pinpoint convergence as we have it just sucks, really sucks a lot of the sim/BT feel out of the game.

Really like the heat penalty idea.

Was going to suggest adding energy to work in addition to heat. Weapons/tech/movement and so forth all stack on an energy scale as well as the heat scale. Might be to complicated for the casual players though.

Movement and JJs do add to the heat at the moment.