56 replies to this topic

[pyrocomp]

Mazzyplz, on 24 September 2015 - 07:21 AM, said:

infinite ammo does not make up for penalties that other mechs won't get
just nerfing lasers would have a less negative effect on energy boats in the game.

the heat scale affects mechs like the awesome and quickdraw while the mauler is still pumping out 4xac5

balancing???? more like imbalancing

the difference is that the stock loadouts aren't ruined by my idea, hence why i made it.

ghost heat ruins stock mechs. that makes no sense.

4xAC5 will live to see recoil. Just don't expect a single change to the system to cure all known issues, no miracles in this world,

[wanderer]

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what a lame idea, then only energy based mechs would pay a significant price, while ammo based mechs just run cool til the cows come home.

There's a reason "heat guns" actually work in TT, like Inferno SRMs, plasma weapons, even flamers. And yes, ballistics would become more popular. On the other hand, that also means that ammo concerns kick in, and unless your name is "Gaussboat" (and those definitely need work in a system where heat actually matters), you're still capable of heating up.

Of course, this is MWO, where PGI couldn't even manage to build a real flamer (or an SRM launcher with Infernos, HA!) because a dual-mode weapon is hard to code, people.

[Mazzyplz]

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There's a reason "heat guns" actually work in TT, like Inferno SRMs, plasma weapons, even flamers. And yes, ballistics would become more popular. On the other hand, that also means that ammo concerns kick in, and unless your name is "Gaussboat"

ammo concerns; LOL.

right.


you have convinced me; awesome, quickdraw, trebuchet those mechs need a nerf!

situation totally warrants making ballistic more popular to the detriment of these underused mechs - hurr



-


your grasp of the issue with the flamer is also quite telling; pgi doesn't make the flamer work to shut down mechs because it would enable somebody to stunlock someone else into a shutdown and not have a fair chance to even shoot back.

in a pvp game this isn't good. do i really need to explain this??? it would seem like i do. sigh-




you can fix flamers but it is not simple, and making flamers stun lock bad mechs like you are suggesting is just a terrible thing to propose


and what would be the intent behind doing this anyways? to nerf lasers?

why not nerf lasers and that's it? why nerf also erppc? are you going to tell me erppcs need to be brought down further like they are dominating the field or something??
that would be funny

the hottest weapons in the game:

erppc>
ppc>
srm>
lasers.

so you would have pgi nerf some of the worst weapons along with lasers on non ballistic variants.
completely pointless.

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don't expect a single change to the system to cure all known issues, no miracles in this world,

oh? so you have a multi staged solution here? why not share it then;
why only share part of a solution if that won't really make the game balanced - seems like sharing only the initial step of your master plan with the devs will only make the problems worse because if you are throwing out partially developed ideas, then they might only partially listen and partially balance the game.

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4xAC5 will live to see recoil.

wow man you got the info? tell me the ETA on recoil please!! how are you developing this?...


oh, this is just conjecture?

you didn't even care to develop this idea? only the nerfbat to non ballistics?

so your plan is "meh we'll figure it out later.. doesn't matter"

got it.

Edited by Mazzyplz, 24 September 2015 - 11:31 AM.

[Bigbacon]

Setun, on 24 September 2015 - 02:31 AM, said:

I've been thinking about this for awhile, and here's the gist of my solution to the nonstop alphas running around the game right now. This system could possibly remove ghost heat as well as the penalty for running hot can be very detrimental.

Heat levels 0-50%: Optimal running temps of mech, no issues

Heat Levels 51-74%: Mech running hot, causing sluggish movement (torso turn rate + movement turn rate scaling penalty)

Heat Levels 75-85%: Mech is at low critical heat; movement further impaired as well as random heat sinks begin to take .5 damage every 2-3 seconds.

Heat Levels 86-95%: Mech at moderate critical heat; movement still impaired at same rate as low critical heat, various heat sinks still taking .5 damage every 2-3 sec, and weapons reload 5-10% slower.

Heat Levels 96-100%+: Mech at high critical heat; All of the previous effects from before, plus internal structure damage begins occuring as well as shut down if heat reaches 100% or more (if override isn't on.)

I feel like with this setup it'll still be possible to do alpha strikes when it's absolutely necessary, but it won't be the norm. Players who can manage their heat levels will be able to provide much more damage over time as well have better survivability chance since they're able to keep their mechs running cool.

Also with this setup no specific weapons will have to be nerfed in any way. The focus is purely on your skill as a pilot to keep your machine running cool in combat. Also this presents a unique advantage to those who would bring flamers as now you can make your targets easier to herd by hindering their turn speeds, and if you can get their heat levels high enough you can bake off their heat sinks from stress, making them that much more susceptible to your flamers.

- Setun

this is pretty good interpretation of how to implement it in an action game vs TT. The more I think about it as well I think PGI will pass on ever changing heat scale to something like this because they need to get the game to a point now where it can appeal to the widest audience possible and sadly making things more complex is too much for the masses who will want something simple you can sit down and play, mash some buttons, and have fun without thinking.

[pyrocomp]

Mazzyplz, on 24 September 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

you didn't even care to develop this idea? only the nerfbat to non ballistics?
so your plan is "meh we'll figure it out later.. doesn't matter"

Ok, I see you wanted to be snide and got a little beyound mesure, happens, yet isn't nice of you. Any system is much harder to balance if it is complex, but complexity allows more broad 'balance point', e.g. make it less sensitive to cmal variations. Tunable balance of sorts.
Go through the following list (somewhat sorted) and gather the picture.

1. Split mech into heat exchanging components with heat dissipation from heat sinks installed, not averaged. This will severely lower local heat cap (arm can accomodate 15 heat pts) thus punishing alphas but unaffecting the measured shooting. Also makes tight hardpoints less attractive.
2. DHS only dissipates heat, SHS adds heat capacity to the component. Choose wisely.
3. 'No convergence without lock' with default convergence on the optimal range to reduce hill humping and default long range spam. Also favours tight hardpoint locations.
4. Small CoF. For overreacting types I stress SMALL. E.g. you won't miss a shot at stationary Atlas from 100 m, niether from 500 m, from 800 m yes - the shots will spread everywhere. CoF weapon, heat, movement and chassis dependent (quirks, if you like).
5. Intoduction of recoil and gyros. Better gyros and higher the Mech mass, higher the recoil Mech can handle without 'gyros overload' and 'hug the dirt' result. Also strongly punishes pop-tarting, as almost any mech with high hardpoints will tumble if fires in the air. Recoil, momentum, result. Might be adress with 'pilots skill' to have higher chances to land on feet after such trick. Also beeing shot. Light mech getting full blast from LBX/20 should tumble and fall, unless 'pilot skills' etc.
6. Recoil turnes the firing Mech. Left hand shot - get left hand push, right hand shot - right hand push, high mount - upward push. Adds dome feel to the heavy ballistics. PPCs also will have recoil.
7. FF vs Endo. If the mech can be split further to more components (more than 8, e.g. upper arm, lower arm, hand... maybe with sides), then the FF and Endo can behave differently under fire. FF has a chance to be shattered (via crit) leaving IS exposed, Endo cannot be critted, but alway tranfers some damage from ballistics (via shock) to the IS. Select appropriate. Lasers have no crit chance on the armor, but add heat. Gauss becomes through-and-through weapon damaging everything
8. PPCs should not only overload ECMs, but force cooldown on every evergy weapon on board (plus gauss). Damage is a matter of consideration. Other weapons should have some side-effects, e.g. presenting not only 'damage' threat, but some other forms of use and abuse (as heavy impact of large caliber ballistics).
9. LRMs... well, fixed (relatively to he mech component) fire direction to allow shooting around corners, not just over the ridges, much higher damage, much higher spread (distance dependend). At max range continue to blindly fall without any correction, not disintegrating mid-air.
10. ... hell, there are many other things to adress...

Anyway, I;m not saying that introduction of all this will surely 'balance the game'. No, it will make the balancing much harder, but, hopefully, will allow to make differences between chassis and loadouts matter less than playstyles and skill, e.g. there always be meta (as ingle Mech with single type of loadout), but the edge it gives should matter only if two absolutely equal players play a set of 100 games and see that meta assures you 52 wins, not 53.

Are you satisfied?

[bar10jim]

lsp, on 15 September 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Make it table top or don't make it.

Ok, so each weapon can only fire once every 10 seconds and hit location is random.

Fail and Fail again.

*Sigh*

[AdamBaines]

Livewyr, on 15 September 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

True, but it will go a long way in reducing the desire to boat long range weapons if they have an decreased rate of fire compared to their short range cousins.

As to how to fix it? I've come up with multiple ideas for more creative solutions. (And I'm not the only person to come up with good ideas for it.)

(We don't want to eliminate the alpha strike completely, it has a kind of charm, especially in a desperate last fight)
Example: Boated SRMs? Wildly increase the spread on all SRMs fired within .5 seconds or whatever.. (Call it an overload)
Example: Boated LRMs? Wildly increase their spread... (although with clan LRMs being chained already, this is kind of moot.)
Example: Boated ACs? Create a JAM chance on the reload after firing so many ACs..
Example: Boated UACs? Bump up the Jam Chance considerably...
Example: PPCs (if for some reason the heat doesn't deter you) Have a chance of misfire that causes some damage to your mech.
Example: Boated Lasers? Extend the burn time considerably.

There are so many creative solutions, tailored to the weapons, that make more sense than a random heat spike from firing 1 too many AC10s...

This just seems to me replacing one convoluted system with another. Just stick with GH.

[Setun]

Bigbacon, on 24 September 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

this is pretty good interpretation of how to implement it in an action game vs TT. The more I think about it as well I think PGI will pass on ever changing heat scale to something like this because they need to get the game to a point now where it can appeal to the widest audience possible and sadly making things more complex is too much for the masses who will want something simple you can sit down and play, mash some buttons, and have fun without thinking.

Thank you! I wouldn't say the system I typed up wouldn't be too steep of a learning curve as it could be simply explained initially as 'going over 50% heat will negatively affect your mech in multiple ways.' But my main train of thought with that setup I wrote up is rewarding players who know when to take their shots / risk the heat penalties vs the CoD run and gun alpha spam.

[Wildstreak]

Only way they could remove GH is to make the Heat Scale have penalties.

[RagingOyster]

lsp, on 15 September 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

Nothing? We don't need ******* ghost heat to begin with. Make it table top or don't make it. DHS should be redone too, so should the heat system. But they aren't interested in fixing core issues with the game, they just want to continue with their bandiad solution of "quirks".

You know quirks aren't a PGI-created "badaid" right? Design quirks existed in table top with maxtech, as a way to make chassis feel more unique.

[Draconeran]

I like the idea of a PTS with a revamped heat scale.

So if 1 SHS = 1 , 1 DHS = 2 and all the weapons = TT values or close to it. A 6 PPC Stalker would blow up upon alpha.

First let players choose their override threshold i.e. +10 over capacity before needing to engage the override mode.
Lets use some of the concepts from the TT heat scale i.e penalties to movement and to firing. The movement is the easiest one just slowly make the engine less efficient as the heat scale goes past 100% capacity. The firing penalty would have to be more intensive. I think flickering HUD followed by glitching screen would give the right feeling or even a delayed convergence of weapon fire to crosshairs. I don't think the ammo explosion is a fair one to have in game due to certain builds avoiding ammo weapons all together. I do like the internal damage idea used but it needs to be higher on the heat scale

So lets look at how this could affect the heat side of things.

So a 6 PPC Stalker STK-4N built as such : STK-4N

Creates 60 heat and can only handle 32 of it to 100% if you take the expanded table to +30 it would shutdown after 1 alpha.
If a mech gets to this point make it so it takes a while to recover i.e. lock out weapons until it cools to a reasonable level and make it unbearable for movement and aim as it should be. In this example the stalker in TT would not be able to move and it would find it almost impossible to land a single shot after 1 alpha.

Even a Jenner or similar light energy boat will find it hard to constantly alpha

6 ML = 30 heat A max XL engine Jenner w/ 2 JJ has 14 DHS = 28 cooling but if you add the heat from running and jumping you start to see how even a Jenner can't maintain a full alpha even on a system built from TT rules. And the medium pulse would suffer even more due to lost tonnage for DHS and 1 extra heat per weapon.

Why PGI and some players think the concepts behind the TT game would break this game is beyond me. I feel the reason TT had those thing in it was simple balance without all the headaches that a modified heat scale w/ ghost heat have caused.

I have lots of idea the could kill the alpha boating system that made the ghost heat a needed evil. I.E. the blurry HUD/screen when over heating, change pinpoint convergence (old arcade game shooter with changing reticle size based on movement of gun as reference), unlike weapons converge poorly, weapons in different body part converge separately, and many other ideas.

GHOST HEAT WAS A QUICK FIX THAT NEEDS A NEW CONCEPT.

Just as quirks have changed the game in the wrong way.
I blame the quirks for causing MechForce Classic's death and ghost heat played a part in that flaw.

Edited by Draconeran, 25 September 2015 - 07:02 AM.

[Raso]

I was always under the impression that a lower heat cap but faster heat dissipation could, in theory, negate the need for ghost heat. Make over all heat dissipation faster gor all mechs and lower the heat threshold across the board. Make DHS add full, double value of dissipation to heat but only 1 to heat threshold. For certain mechs maybe a slightly higher or lower overall threshold at the cost of reduced dissipation? Say, for mechs who are known for high laser alphas like the Awesome or Nova or Hunchback 4P.
While this may lead to people boating the standard dual PPC/Gauss combo we all know and love I feel like that would be a gross underuse of a mech's lay out. Reduced heat cap would mean we could see more of a focus on weapons meant for different ranges loaded onto a mech. Use your medium lasers up close but have yhe large lasers for when you close in on the target. You would be at a huge risk of overheating if you used your medium and large lasers together. ACs would also serve as burst damage for striking or making openinga. We may also see more of a shift to chainfire and DPS rather than alphas.

[wanderer]

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ammo concerns; LOL.

right.

We've repeatedly increased ammo counts because energy weapons > you. Reverse it.

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you have convinced me; awesome, quickdraw, trebuchet those mechs need a nerf!

Regardless of anything else, these chassis are already garbage- relative to everything else. That hardly changes now, does it?

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situation totally warrants making ballistic more popular to the detriment of these underused mechs - hurr

See above. The entire system of weapons balance is screwed up in part because PGI never managed more than what was a kludged, oversimplistic foundation to give us things like "weapons always shoot perfectly at a single point" or "heat doesn't matter unless it's 100%, then you explode so we'll put in ghost heat rather than,y'know, those overheat effects.".

The system has been balanced on the equivalent of a foundation of scrap 2x4's, rusty nails, and bits of duct tape.

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your grasp of the issue with the flamer is also quite telling; pgi doesn't make the flamer work to shut down mechs because it would enable somebody to stunlock someone else into a shutdown and not have a fair chance to even shoot back.

PGI can't even make a functional flamer.

1) They made it a constant "stream" weapon rather than one with a cooldown, allowing it to apply heat loads constantly without a break. (Flamers in TT have a recharge rate of "1", meaning they fire once every 2.5 seconds.)
2) Rather than fix this, they kept the mechanic and added increasing heat loads to firing over time and the aforementioned 90% overheat limit.
2b) Math time: In tabletop, there's a maximum of 15 heat/turn one can add to a target from external sources, which translates to 1.5 heat/second for MWO. If PGI had actually paid attention, stunlocking wouldn't have happened unless a 'Mech was seriously damaged to begin with.
3) TT flamers do heat or damage, not both. PGI cannot into multi-mode weaponry, producing an inferior weapon that's laughed at in any kind of serious play. Combined with a lack of any understanding of TT's heat rules (see 2b), this produced one of the most sucktastic weapons in MWO history once Paul did his usual "fix" on something by utterly breaking it (see also: jump jets).

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you can fix flamers but it is not simple, and making flamers stun lock bad mechs like you are suggesting is just a terrible thing to propose

See above. Flamerstunlockfests were a symptom of horrible implementation on PGI's part.

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and what would be the intent behind doing this anyways? to nerf lasers?

why not nerf lasers and that's it? why nerf also erppc? are you going to tell me erppcs need to be brought down further like they are dominating the field or something??
that would be funny

Because it isn't "nerf", it's "the entire system is broken at the ground floor, making tweaks above it useless for actual fixes".

[wanderer]

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You know quirks aren't a PGI-created "badaid" right? Design quirks existed in table top with maxtech, as a way to make chassis feel more unique.

MaxTech wasn't even remotely a "tournament-legal" book, nor did it try to be- and nothing at all like PGI's system of quirks that could turn a Dragon into an AC/5 machinegun of dakkadeath.

[Mazzyplz]

wanderer, on 25 September 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

Because it isn't "nerf", it's "the entire system is broken at the ground floor, making tweaks above it useless for actual fixes".

ok i like your idea on the flamer and mostly it sounds good but the problem with your solution of heat scale is that it relies on several other things like reducing ammo count; make sure you give pgi the whole document - i bet they just pick one aspect and implement that and we end up worse than now. call me a pessimist but i'll just call it now

this is why i am scared of telling them their whole system is bad because then they either come up with something that has a 50% chance of being much worse - or they just assume it is too much work and we're stuck here.
but hey maybe i am wrong and they CAN implement things on a longer-term basis without all the ADHD that has been shown so far - like heck; remember when they introduced quirks to make underused mechs better? at first they gave awesome some structure quirks and the next month the original intent FLEW OUT THE WINDOW when they gave the thunderbolt an ERPPC machinegun

it literally took NO TIME FLAT for that idea to go on a tangent and the intent behind it completely abandoned

[CptGier]

Greyhart, on 15 September 2015 - 04:23 AM, said:

yes it is cumbersome idea and difficult for people to understand.

this would also mean reworking heat and heat-sinks

Hard to understand or just stupid?

I fire a laser that deals 8 heat. Suddenly, I fire 4 of the same laser and I get 88 heat....such logic...

Or, i chain fire a 8 heat laser but i press the button 0.000487 second to fast and I get 18 heat added to my 8 heat shot.

Ghost heat is so stupid its crazy...

[Phantomime]

ITEM #1: GHOST HEAT...


Instead, each weapon you fire generates 'Overload' (calculated before the shot is actually fired, 1st shot is free) in addition to heat.

'Overload' stacks mutiplicatively with each additional weapon that is active.
Each stack 'shakes' your crosshair a slight amount over a short period of time.
As they stack the 'shake' gets worse, and lasts longer.

since this is calculated a split second (we are using computers here) before the shot is fired/emmited, alpha suffers worse than chain-fire as everything is hit with max deviation for the number of weapons fired, as opposed to extending the duration of a slight 'shake' over the chain-firing period.

ya, basically the way any other shooter works - firing a lot of guns is equalivilant to the accuracy penalty in an FPS when you hold the trigger on a full auto MG.

-You could even give each weapon a specific value of 'shake' generated so that offending weapons (Gauss) generate more 'shake' per stack and even extend the duration of the stacks generated by these weapons.

-Alternately, offending weapons (Gauss) create an amount of background 'shake' that is always there while the weapon is functional; so mounting 4 Gauss becomes moot unless you dont care about accuracy.



THE END. A more effective deterant to alpha, as it causes divation and thus CAN NOT be pin point (which is the entire issue); you will still do all the damage (assuming you are close enough for the deviation to encumpus the enemy mech) but it will be spread around like it should be.




ITEM #2: MECH BALANCING...


Clan = 2000, IS = 1000; max value of mechs in a fight is 12000. DONE.

all weapon and mech values to cannon. Clan = Quality. IS = Quantity.

both sides have to play to their strengths; IS must swarm and focus fire to win. Clan must be very careful in where they choose to engage - loss of a single mech is like loosing 2.

As the game progresses, these values are tweeked, less played mechs get their match value lowered, EX: Gargoyle wouldnt be valued the same as an Execuationer.



THE END. Making the two factions functionally the same is stupid. Your community hates this. STOP TRYING TO DO IT.




Item #3: Heat...


THIS:



"Heat levels 0-50%: Optimal running temps of mech, no issues

Heat Levels 51-74%: Mech running hot, causing sluggish movement (torso turn rate + movement turn rate scaling penalty)

Heat Levels 75-85%: Mech is at low critical heat; movement further impaired as well as random heat sinks begin to take .5 damage every 2-3 seconds.

Heat Levels 86-95%: Mech at moderate critical heat; movement still impaired at same rate as low critical heat, various heat sinks still taking .5 damage every 2-3 sec, and weapons reload 5-10% slower.

Heat Levels 96-100%+: Mech at high critical heat; All of the previous effects from before, plus internal structure damage begins occuring as well as shut down if heat reaches 100% or more (if override isn't on.)

- Setun"


Deterimental heat degradation of the mech is how you deal with energy boats; make them sluggish, kill their refire, and with 'shake' stacking, alpha's designed to do pinpoint just dont work.

Ballistic mechs have to respect heat as it can cause their ammo to cook off killing them instantly, or at least their weapons.

'Shake' stacking and ammo/tonne ratio deal with Gauss, which ignores basically every other constraint.

Flamers are simple, they generate more heat on the user than the target thus making boating them a bad idea now that heat has a penalty. as long as the values are lowish, then its shouldnt be bad.

Edited by Phantomime, 17 October 2015 - 11:11 PM.