Kudos for once again putting together a sane alternative to PGI balance, unfortunately Ghost Heat won last time. Hopefully Quirkening part II doesn't win again.
+1 to a better infowar part of MWO.
4
Homeless Bill's Iw Solution: Progressive Scanning
Started by Homeless Bill, Sep 15 2015 03:02 AM
53 replies to this topic
#21
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- Overlord
- 3,441 posts
Member
- LocationCharging my Gauss Rifle
Posted 15 September 2015 - 06:45 AM
Homeless Bill
Kudos for once again putting together a sane alternative to PGI balance, unfortunately Ghost Heat won last time. Hopefully Quirkening part II doesn't win again.
+1 to a better infowar part of MWO.
Kudos for once again putting together a sane alternative to PGI balance, unfortunately Ghost Heat won last time. Hopefully Quirkening part II doesn't win again.
+1 to a better infowar part of MWO.
#22
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- Elite Founder
- 96 posts
Member
Posted 15 September 2015 - 07:17 AM
Homeless Bill, on 15 September 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:
Author’s Notes: There is a bold TL;DR for each section and an all-encompassing one at the bottom as a courtesy to those of you who aren't interested in my seemingly endless drivel. The term “doritos" is referring to the red, triangular targeting markers that appear above 'mechs that can be targeted. And what kind of ******* jams his name in the title? The kind that hopes his shred of internet fame will be click-baity enough to cut through some of the noise since I actually think this is a pretty sweet idea.
The rebalancing effort has a lot of facets, but today I want to address one specific cornerstone that should be solid so that other things can fall into place: information warfare. Scouts have begged for a true reconnaissance role since this game’s inception, MechWarrior is a natural fit for interesting sensor mechanics, and since infotech is one of the four, new ‘mech-balancing pillars, I figure it should be appropriately useful.
TL:DR: Information doesn’t really matter that much currently, and tweaking values affecting how it’s acquired ignores that fundamental lack of utility.
The Solution
With that goal in mind, I present to you the concept of Progressive Scanning. The idea is that a 'mech could be scanned throughout the course of a battle by being targeted. The accumulated target lock duration would unlock progressively more useful advantages against that particular 'mech for the rest of the round, making scouting invaluable at all stages of an engagement.
Each mech would have a Scanned status from 0-100% (as an initial guess for balance, 1% would take between 1 and 2 seconds; therefore, it would take between 100 and 200 seconds of being targeted by a single 'mech to be fully scanned, depending on the ‘mech being scanned and the one doing the scanning). The first few tiers of would reveal what it does now - the chassis information, paper doll, and equipment readout. But instead of that being the end of the process, those would be the first of many bonuses.]
The longer a 'mech is targeted by your team members, the more advantages are unlocked. C-Bills would be awarded for every second of scanning and every advantage unlocked. Multiple 'mechs could scan a single target simultaneously to speed up the process, but only active locks would count - locks gained through sharing target information would have no effect. The scan rate and the scan threshold could then be adjusted per ‘mech to create diversity including superior scouts or variants that specialize in being sneaky by taking longer to scan.
Below is my initial list of advantages would be gained through scanning, although obviously the values would likely need adjustments and the bonuses are entirely interchangeable, removable, and replaceable. Some may think the later tiers go too far, but I’m all for serious infotech.
Scan Levels:
This is a simple, scalable solution that basically amounts to a single number being incremented for each 'mech. There's no need to implement all the tiers at once, either; starting with four or five advantages and gradually adding more is still far preferable to the status quo in which nothing matters.
Though you may have noticed in the list above, it deserves its own, special mention: I strongly believe target information sharing should tie directly into this system, meaning even targeting doritos wouldn't be shared until 'mechs are scanned for a certain period of time. The move to 12v12 killed flanking and sneaky tactics; too many eyes and instant sharing make it nearly impossible to get around behind without most of the enemy team knowing. Requiring some level of scanning in order to share targeting information not only makes scouting critically important, but it also allows for interesting maneuvers early on in the game (or even later if you've wisely kept a couple of your pilots hidden).
TL;DR: Link the total amount of time a ‘mech has been locked (“scanned”) throughout the match to progressively more powerful bonuses such as lock time reduction, increased target decay, ECM cancellation, missile buffs, always-visible health percentages, and even permanent map markers.
The Benefits
Scouting as a Serious Role
This system would make continual reconnaissance valuable. Firepower is always an asset, tanking is often an invaluable service to the team, mobility is life for many 'mechs, but information has always been a tertiary concern. By applying progressively better buffs, scouts can finally feel like they're functioning in a non-combat role with immense utility.
This solution would turn scouting into a useful non-combat role - even at competitive levels of play, add strategic depth (whether to scout all ‘mechs enough to share basic info or race to some of the late-tier buffs on high-priority threats), equalize XP rewards and C-Bill earnings, and give PGI a simple tool to balance the infotech aspect of battlemechs.
The rebalancing effort has a lot of facets, but today I want to address one specific cornerstone that should be solid so that other things can fall into place: information warfare. Scouts have begged for a true reconnaissance role since this game’s inception, MechWarrior is a natural fit for interesting sensor mechanics, and since infotech is one of the four, new ‘mech-balancing pillars, I figure it should be appropriately useful.
TL:DR: Information doesn’t really matter that much currently, and tweaking values affecting how it’s acquired ignores that fundamental lack of utility.
The Solution
With that goal in mind, I present to you the concept of Progressive Scanning. The idea is that a 'mech could be scanned throughout the course of a battle by being targeted. The accumulated target lock duration would unlock progressively more useful advantages against that particular 'mech for the rest of the round, making scouting invaluable at all stages of an engagement.
Each mech would have a Scanned status from 0-100% (as an initial guess for balance, 1% would take between 1 and 2 seconds; therefore, it would take between 100 and 200 seconds of being targeted by a single 'mech to be fully scanned, depending on the ‘mech being scanned and the one doing the scanning). The first few tiers of would reveal what it does now - the chassis information, paper doll, and equipment readout. But instead of that being the end of the process, those would be the first of many bonuses.]
The longer a 'mech is targeted by your team members, the more advantages are unlocked. C-Bills would be awarded for every second of scanning and every advantage unlocked. Multiple 'mechs could scan a single target simultaneously to speed up the process, but only active locks would count - locks gained through sharing target information would have no effect. The scan rate and the scan threshold could then be adjusted per ‘mech to create diversity including superior scouts or variants that specialize in being sneaky by taking longer to scan.
Below is my initial list of advantages would be gained through scanning, although obviously the values would likely need adjustments and the bonuses are entirely interchangeable, removable, and replaceable. Some may think the later tiers go too far, but I’m all for serious infotech.
Scan Levels:
- 3% - Chassis Info / Target Designation - Like now, chassis / variant information and target designation would be shown first; unlike now, that information would also be displayed on the scoreboard for easy access.
- 5% - Paper Doll and Health Percentage - Same as now and self-explanatory.
- 8% - Weapons and Equipment Readout - Same as now and self-explanatory.
- 10% - Targeting Info Sharing - I make a case for this below, but targeting information sharing - even target marker doritos - should be tied into this system to encourage scouting and revitalize stealthy play,
- 15% - Decreased Targeting Time - Halves the delay for Paper Doll and Equipment Readout displays.
- 20% - Increased Target Decay - Adds an additional second or two before targeting locks are broken.
- 30% - Increased Sensor Visibility Range - Adds an additional 200m to the distance at which the ‘mech can be targeted.
- 40% - Health Percentage on Scoreboard - A constant health percentage display on the scoreboard, particularly combined with chassis information, would be invaluable in knowing what’s weak and what’s fresh.
- 50% - Not Hidden by ECM - It would be awesome if a concerted scouting effort nullified ECM’s cloaking effect on a particular ‘mech. To clarify, if it was an ECM-equipped ‘mech, the ECM would still cloak its teammates but not itself.
- 60% - Decreased Missile Lock Time - I went light on LRM buffs, but rapid locks for missiles is a no-brainer for heavily scouted targets.
- 70% - Instant Targeting Time - Paper Doll and Equipment Readout would be instant.
- 80% - Permanently on Radar - Like the wallhack Seismic Sensor of old days but better, this would effectively put an end to any sneaky maneuver a ‘mech tried to make. Being scanned for an extended period should confer an appropriately hefty advantage.
- 100% - Permanent Targeting Marker - Taking it one step further, having the dorito always visible means you always know where that ‘mech is in 3D space.
- Decreased Missile Spread - Another LRM buff that could make sense, but I prefer lock time.
- Increased Missile Speed - Same.
- Target Outline / Highlight - Adding a highlight, outline, or some other visibility queue would make trading on foggy maps a lot easier.
- Increased Damage Taken - This is something I knew would be controversial and isn’t my cup of tea, but you could quite literally just buff damage taken at a certain point so that scouts very much mirror support classes from other online games.
- Permanently Targetable - I thought this would be way too overpowered, but it remains on the honorable mentions list to make the point that you could easily make infotech as serious as firepower, survivability, and mobility.
This is a simple, scalable solution that basically amounts to a single number being incremented for each 'mech. There's no need to implement all the tiers at once, either; starting with four or five advantages and gradually adding more is still far preferable to the status quo in which nothing matters.
Though you may have noticed in the list above, it deserves its own, special mention: I strongly believe target information sharing should tie directly into this system, meaning even targeting doritos wouldn't be shared until 'mechs are scanned for a certain period of time. The move to 12v12 killed flanking and sneaky tactics; too many eyes and instant sharing make it nearly impossible to get around behind without most of the enemy team knowing. Requiring some level of scanning in order to share targeting information not only makes scouting critically important, but it also allows for interesting maneuvers early on in the game (or even later if you've wisely kept a couple of your pilots hidden).
TL;DR: Link the total amount of time a ‘mech has been locked (“scanned”) throughout the match to progressively more powerful bonuses such as lock time reduction, increased target decay, ECM cancellation, missile buffs, always-visible health percentages, and even permanent map markers.
The Benefits
Scouting as a Serious Role
This system would make continual reconnaissance valuable. Firepower is always an asset, tanking is often an invaluable service to the team, mobility is life for many 'mechs, but information has always been a tertiary concern. By applying progressively better buffs, scouts can finally feel like they're functioning in a non-combat role with immense utility.
This solution would turn scouting into a useful non-combat role - even at competitive levels of play, add strategic depth (whether to scout all ‘mechs enough to share basic info or race to some of the late-tier buffs on high-priority threats), equalize XP rewards and C-Bill earnings, and give PGI a simple tool to balance the infotech aspect of battlemechs.
I think we could simplify the whole system into three broad levels. Visual profile, acoustic profile, and sensor profile.
Visual target designation/chassis ID, distance/grid coordinates, and damage/loadout would be indicated as V1, V2, and V3 over an enemy mechs dorito when targeted.
You would then start on an acoustic profile for the mech including engine/speed, ammo count (auto feeders are heavy machinery) and heat level (so are coolant pumps) with all this information showing in an extra row to the right of the paperdoll (existing loadout information stays on the left). These would show as A1,2,3 next to the dorito as a clear indication to everyone locking what level of profile has been completed.
Lastly we have sensor profiles. First would come instant radar visibility of that enemy mech to any friendly being locked/scanned. Second, instant dorito and minimap visibility to any mech the enemy has LOS on or is within 400m of, much like old seismic. At maximum scan an enemy mech's sensors would be completely analysed and susceptible to hacking, spoofing, or blinding. All mechs with BAP or ECM would have essentially perfect countermeasures to that specific enemy mech's sensors for the duration of the game.
BAP would double scanning speed, while ECM would double the enemy's locking and scanning time on friendly mech in your coverage range by overloading the enemy sensors and targeting computer with interference (up to a limit of 6X slower than normal).
For friendlies, show ECM bubbles as circles on the minimap so mechs can stay inside easily. For targeted enemies, throw a cockpit/Betty alert when the enemy starts their third tier (sensor) profile (jamming detected) and show a rough arc on the minimap where it's coming from to allow a mech to hide or spot lazy stationary scouts.
And there you have it, an easily conveyed, 9 level info tech system that uses or modifies almost exclusively systems already in the game.
#23
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- Hearing Impaired
- 4,519 posts
Member
- LocationEurope
Posted 15 September 2015 - 07:18 AM
I don't see why PGI would listen. There has been tons of proposals on sensor range/passive/active radar and yet none of them have been implented. Ongoing since 2012.
I like all the idea's but it's a waste of your time.
I like all the idea's but it's a waste of your time.
Edited by Sarlic, 15 September 2015 - 07:19 AM.
#24
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- The People's Hero
- 491 posts
Member
Posted 15 September 2015 - 07:36 AM
I think a lot of people undervalue how important positional information is. I regularly run a NARC Raven and I've seen PUG teams instantly gain 30 IQ points and +5 to bravery when I keep a mere 2 enemy assaults NARCed. Knowing where the enemy's big boys are (or where they are not) help immensely in the decision to push or not push.
The last two levels of the proposed scan levels are way too powerful, and worse take away the wonderful tense decisions made when under the fog of war. Deciding whether to push a perceived weak spot or defend from a flank attack is half the fun and more than half the strategy of this game. Permanent targeting takes that away unless you put in a counter, the same way that ECM counters NARC.
I do like the idea of bonus damage due to scouting, whether it be by plain targeting, TAG or NARC. I would like it even better if the bonus damage was credited to the mech responsible for the TAG or NARC, so scouts can make some decent money by being an actual scout.
The last two levels of the proposed scan levels are way too powerful, and worse take away the wonderful tense decisions made when under the fog of war. Deciding whether to push a perceived weak spot or defend from a flank attack is half the fun and more than half the strategy of this game. Permanent targeting takes that away unless you put in a counter, the same way that ECM counters NARC.
I do like the idea of bonus damage due to scouting, whether it be by plain targeting, TAG or NARC. I would like it even better if the bonus damage was credited to the mech responsible for the TAG or NARC, so scouts can make some decent money by being an actual scout.
#25
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- Knight Errant
- 1,466 posts
Member
Posted 15 September 2015 - 07:47 AM
Sarlic, on 15 September 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:
I don't see why PGI would listen. There has been tons of proposals on sensor range/passive/active radar and yet none of them have been implented. Ongoing since 2012.
I like all the idea's but it's a waste of your time.
I like all the idea's but it's a waste of your time.
A defeatist attitude helps how, exactly?
No, when you want change, you have to make it change, not give up.
The reason this all seems doable right now is because PGI actually are making sensor/information warfare a priority for the first time in years. It might be that they have enough other things done that they can now spare time for it.
You can't be bothered it seems, but thanks for helping anyway I suppose.
#26
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- Overlord
- 1,854 posts
Member
Posted 15 September 2015 - 08:23 AM
I like the overall concept: Give value to information so that scouting becomes an important and rewarding activity. There are always going to be quibbles with the steps and implementation, but that's what testing is for.
A couple questions - how could a Command Console (finally) become useful in this system? How would a Targeting Computer fit in? UAV consumable?
Some thoughts - it seems like the information gathered should decay over time. I love the idea of my Zeus being able to target an enemy 'mech and immediately get full readout because our Locust put in the effort to scan that 'mech and give our team the edge. However, that information will grow stale and be less useful over time; giving 'mechwarriors good reasons to keep scanning enemy targets (or the late-game scout to get a 'fresh look' at the enemy survivors before the final brawl). More chances for good recon and C-Bill/XP bonuses.
Perhaps the system could incentive 'first scan' of an enemy mech, (with a small bonus for the first scan of every stage) motivating faster 'mechs to get that 'first look' at the enemy Dire Wolf. Populating the team roster with enemy 'mechs would be an awesome addendum to this; a handful of good scouts could give your team a really good picture of the battle you're about to walk into.
I'd also like to see scouts capable of doing this job without popping a Dorito and being seen; a stealthy scout could scan half the enemy team if they held fire. Right now that requires ECM, which I think isn't true to Battletech; Wasps and Locusts were scouting the enemy long before the Raven 3L came onto the field.
What sort of ranges are we thinking of for scanning? The standard 800 meters? Would a mech know it was being scanned? Would it only get an alert when a certain level was tripped? That might be a fun way to structure the 'stages' - the early % are non-intrusive and don't require a lot of emissions; the mid-range set off an indicator, the high-end sound an alert.
Whatever 'game' was built into this system, it seems clear to me that a system for InfoTech is needed far and above the rather simple setup we have now. ECM is obviously broken (and has always been) and paper doll/Dorito/LRM locks just isn't enough depth to make scouting matter.
A couple questions - how could a Command Console (finally) become useful in this system? How would a Targeting Computer fit in? UAV consumable?
Some thoughts - it seems like the information gathered should decay over time. I love the idea of my Zeus being able to target an enemy 'mech and immediately get full readout because our Locust put in the effort to scan that 'mech and give our team the edge. However, that information will grow stale and be less useful over time; giving 'mechwarriors good reasons to keep scanning enemy targets (or the late-game scout to get a 'fresh look' at the enemy survivors before the final brawl). More chances for good recon and C-Bill/XP bonuses.
Perhaps the system could incentive 'first scan' of an enemy mech, (with a small bonus for the first scan of every stage) motivating faster 'mechs to get that 'first look' at the enemy Dire Wolf. Populating the team roster with enemy 'mechs would be an awesome addendum to this; a handful of good scouts could give your team a really good picture of the battle you're about to walk into.
I'd also like to see scouts capable of doing this job without popping a Dorito and being seen; a stealthy scout could scan half the enemy team if they held fire. Right now that requires ECM, which I think isn't true to Battletech; Wasps and Locusts were scouting the enemy long before the Raven 3L came onto the field.
What sort of ranges are we thinking of for scanning? The standard 800 meters? Would a mech know it was being scanned? Would it only get an alert when a certain level was tripped? That might be a fun way to structure the 'stages' - the early % are non-intrusive and don't require a lot of emissions; the mid-range set off an indicator, the high-end sound an alert.
Whatever 'game' was built into this system, it seems clear to me that a system for InfoTech is needed far and above the rather simple setup we have now. ECM is obviously broken (and has always been) and paper doll/Dorito/LRM locks just isn't enough depth to make scouting matter.
#27
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- Survivor
- 642 posts
Member
Posted 15 September 2015 - 09:12 AM
I would say that most of my upset was caused by the almost unbelievably poor state that the quirks were in when they were deployed. Even a cursory view of the quirks would have shown that some were simply absurd: -3500 torso twist?
This speaks to either an egotistical belief that they always do good work therefore no review is necessary, that no review was necessary because they had utmost confidence in the quality of the numbers (see the first) or that they simply missed them in their review. I would almost rather that they did NO QA on them than that they put it out in such a state.
Combined with a total lack of communication regarding what they viewed as the purpose of the PTS release (Info Warfare) and it's almost a perfect recipe for failure and rage.
I believe that Homeless is onto something that I also believe: without a rework of the game ecosystem (map, spawn points, fog of war (undiscovered country), rewards, skills and PSR (which almost directly REFUTES balancing for role warfare a la Info War specific mech builds), I think they need to really think about what it is they are attempting.
They are attempting a code change where an overall game and player experience architectural review is most in order.
This speaks to either an egotistical belief that they always do good work therefore no review is necessary, that no review was necessary because they had utmost confidence in the quality of the numbers (see the first) or that they simply missed them in their review. I would almost rather that they did NO QA on them than that they put it out in such a state.
Combined with a total lack of communication regarding what they viewed as the purpose of the PTS release (Info Warfare) and it's almost a perfect recipe for failure and rage.
I believe that Homeless is onto something that I also believe: without a rework of the game ecosystem (map, spawn points, fog of war (undiscovered country), rewards, skills and PSR (which almost directly REFUTES balancing for role warfare a la Info War specific mech builds), I think they need to really think about what it is they are attempting.
They are attempting a code change where an overall game and player experience architectural review is most in order.
#29
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- Developer
- 1,510 posts
Producer
Posted 15 September 2015 - 09:30 AM
Need to move this over to the re-balance sub-forum.
#30
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- Legendary Founder
- 13,459 posts
Member
- LocationUSA
Posted 15 September 2015 - 09:32 AM
Mechronomicon, on 15 September 2015 - 03:59 AM, said:
It's sort of an inconvenient truth for the 'four pillars' system that one pillar is mostly cosmetic and won't bear much weight.
and another got thrown away entirely
Alexander Garden, on 15 September 2015 - 09:30 AM, said:
Need to move this over to the re-balance sub-forum.
I think the point was to put it somewhere more ppl would see it
#31
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- Legendary Founder
- 9,886 posts
Member
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Posted 15 September 2015 - 09:38 AM
Homeless Bill, on 15 September 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:
Author’s Notes: There is a bold TL;DR for each section and an all-encompassing one at the bottom as a courtesy to those of you who aren't interested in my seemingly endless drivel. The term “doritos" is referring to the red, triangular targeting markers that appear above 'mechs that can be targeted. And what kind of ******* jams his name in the title? The kind that hopes his shred of internet fame will be click-baity enough to cut through some of the noise since I actually think this is a pretty sweet idea.
The rebalancing effort has a lot of facets, but today I want to address one specific cornerstone that should be solid so that other things can fall into place: information warfare. Scouts have begged for a true reconnaissance role since this game’s inception, MechWarrior is a natural fit for interesting sensor mechanics, and since infotech is one of the four, new ‘mech-balancing pillars, I figure it should be appropriately useful.
The Problem
Let's face it: scouting is largely unimportant in MechWarrior: Online. I see blame placed on a myriad of imperfect but ultimately innocent factors - the map size, the long-range trading, the lackluster earnings, and the fact that there's no way to call a target in PUG games while you don't even need a lock to do so effectively on TeamSpeak. And though they all contribute, they aren't the main issue.
The core problem is that information frankly has very little value in this game. As long as you know where the biggest enemy blob is, you're set. The primary advantage of having a lock is being able to quickly identify weak components, but that's hardly comparable to the other three pillars: firepower, survivability, and mobility. And sure, locks for LRMs are great, but should indirect fire really be integral to the value of information warfare?
Moreover, ECM has been brokenly overpowered for so long that good players are used to fighting without a readout. Nowhere is the absence of information warfare more apparent than the competitive scene - the styles of trading and pushing makes exact hit location largely irrelevant, and even without a paper doll, top players can often identify weaknesses based on what they've been hitting.
While I didn't get a chance to play the public test, I did see the dorito delay change and extended lock times. I won't comment except to say they're just turning ***** that barely matter in the grand scheme of things. What we need is not a change to how information is acquired, but a mechanic that gives scouting a purpose beyond finding the blob - something that makes reconnaissance a valuable asset throughout the entire battle, even at competitive levels of play.
TL:DR: Information doesn’t really matter that much currently, and tweaking values affecting how it’s acquired ignores that fundamental lack of utility.
The Solution
With that goal in mind, I present to you the concept of Progressive Scanning. The idea is that a 'mech could be scanned throughout the course of a battle by being targeted. The accumulated target lock duration would unlock progressively more useful advantages against that particular 'mech for the rest of the round, making scouting invaluable at all stages of an engagement.
Each mech would have a Scanned status from 0-100% (as an initial guess for balance, 1% would take between 1 and 2 seconds; therefore, it would take between 100 and 200 seconds of being targeted by a single 'mech to be fully scanned, depending on the ‘mech being scanned and the one doing the scanning). The first few tiers of would reveal what it does now - the chassis information, paper doll, and equipment readout. But instead of that being the end of the process, those would be the first of many bonuses.]
The longer a 'mech is targeted by your team members, the more advantages are unlocked. C-Bills would be awarded for every second of scanning and every advantage unlocked. Multiple 'mechs could scan a single target simultaneously to speed up the process, but only active locks would count - locks gained through sharing target information would have no effect. The scan rate and the scan threshold could then be adjusted per ‘mech to create diversity including superior scouts or variants that specialize in being sneaky by taking longer to scan.
Below is my initial list of advantages would be gained through scanning, although obviously the values would likely need adjustments and the bonuses are entirely interchangeable, removable, and replaceable. Some may think the later tiers go too far, but I’m all for serious infotech.
Scan Levels:
This is a simple, scalable solution that basically amounts to a single number being incremented for each 'mech. There's no need to implement all the tiers at once, either; starting with four or five advantages and gradually adding more is still far preferable to the status quo in which nothing matters.
Though you may have noticed in the list above, it deserves its own, special mention: I strongly believe target information sharing should tie directly into this system, meaning even targeting doritos wouldn't be shared until 'mechs are scanned for a certain period of time. The move to 12v12 killed flanking and sneaky tactics; too many eyes and instant sharing make it nearly impossible to get around behind without most of the enemy team knowing. Requiring some level of scanning in order to share targeting information not only makes scouting critically important, but it also allows for interesting maneuvers early on in the game (or even later if you've wisely kept a couple of your pilots hidden).
TL;DR: Link the total amount of time a ‘mech has been locked (“scanned”) throughout the match to progressively more powerful bonuses such as lock time reduction, increased target decay, ECM cancellation, missile buffs, always-visible health percentages, and even permanent map markers.
The rebalancing effort has a lot of facets, but today I want to address one specific cornerstone that should be solid so that other things can fall into place: information warfare. Scouts have begged for a true reconnaissance role since this game’s inception, MechWarrior is a natural fit for interesting sensor mechanics, and since infotech is one of the four, new ‘mech-balancing pillars, I figure it should be appropriately useful.
The Problem
Let's face it: scouting is largely unimportant in MechWarrior: Online. I see blame placed on a myriad of imperfect but ultimately innocent factors - the map size, the long-range trading, the lackluster earnings, and the fact that there's no way to call a target in PUG games while you don't even need a lock to do so effectively on TeamSpeak. And though they all contribute, they aren't the main issue.
The core problem is that information frankly has very little value in this game. As long as you know where the biggest enemy blob is, you're set. The primary advantage of having a lock is being able to quickly identify weak components, but that's hardly comparable to the other three pillars: firepower, survivability, and mobility. And sure, locks for LRMs are great, but should indirect fire really be integral to the value of information warfare?
Moreover, ECM has been brokenly overpowered for so long that good players are used to fighting without a readout. Nowhere is the absence of information warfare more apparent than the competitive scene - the styles of trading and pushing makes exact hit location largely irrelevant, and even without a paper doll, top players can often identify weaknesses based on what they've been hitting.
While I didn't get a chance to play the public test, I did see the dorito delay change and extended lock times. I won't comment except to say they're just turning ***** that barely matter in the grand scheme of things. What we need is not a change to how information is acquired, but a mechanic that gives scouting a purpose beyond finding the blob - something that makes reconnaissance a valuable asset throughout the entire battle, even at competitive levels of play.
TL:DR: Information doesn’t really matter that much currently, and tweaking values affecting how it’s acquired ignores that fundamental lack of utility.
The Solution
With that goal in mind, I present to you the concept of Progressive Scanning. The idea is that a 'mech could be scanned throughout the course of a battle by being targeted. The accumulated target lock duration would unlock progressively more useful advantages against that particular 'mech for the rest of the round, making scouting invaluable at all stages of an engagement.
Each mech would have a Scanned status from 0-100% (as an initial guess for balance, 1% would take between 1 and 2 seconds; therefore, it would take between 100 and 200 seconds of being targeted by a single 'mech to be fully scanned, depending on the ‘mech being scanned and the one doing the scanning). The first few tiers of would reveal what it does now - the chassis information, paper doll, and equipment readout. But instead of that being the end of the process, those would be the first of many bonuses.]
The longer a 'mech is targeted by your team members, the more advantages are unlocked. C-Bills would be awarded for every second of scanning and every advantage unlocked. Multiple 'mechs could scan a single target simultaneously to speed up the process, but only active locks would count - locks gained through sharing target information would have no effect. The scan rate and the scan threshold could then be adjusted per ‘mech to create diversity including superior scouts or variants that specialize in being sneaky by taking longer to scan.
Below is my initial list of advantages would be gained through scanning, although obviously the values would likely need adjustments and the bonuses are entirely interchangeable, removable, and replaceable. Some may think the later tiers go too far, but I’m all for serious infotech.
Scan Levels:
- 3% - Chassis Info / Target Designation - Like now, chassis / variant information and target designation would be shown first; unlike now, that information would also be displayed on the scoreboard for easy access.
- 5% - Paper Doll and Health Percentage - Same as now and self-explanatory.
- 8% - Weapons and Equipment Readout - Same as now and self-explanatory.
- 10% - Targeting Info Sharing - I make a case for this below, but targeting information sharing - even target marker doritos - should be tied into this system to encourage scouting and revitalize stealthy play,
- 15% - Decreased Targeting Time - Halves the delay for Paper Doll and Equipment Readout displays.
- 20% - Increased Target Decay - Adds an additional second or two before targeting locks are broken.
- 30% - Increased Sensor Visibility Range - Adds an additional 200m to the distance at which the ‘mech can be targeted.
- 40% - Health Percentage on Scoreboard - A constant health percentage display on the scoreboard, particularly combined with chassis information, would be invaluable in knowing what’s weak and what’s fresh.
- 50% - Not Hidden by ECM - It would be awesome if a concerted scouting effort nullified ECM’s cloaking effect on a particular ‘mech. To clarify, if it was an ECM-equipped ‘mech, the ECM would still cloak its teammates but not itself.
- 60% - Decreased Missile Lock Time - I went light on LRM buffs, but rapid locks for missiles is a no-brainer for heavily scouted targets.
- 70% - Instant Targeting Time - Paper Doll and Equipment Readout would be instant.
- 80% - Permanently on Radar - Like the wallhack Seismic Sensor of old days but better, this would effectively put an end to any sneaky maneuver a ‘mech tried to make. Being scanned for an extended period should confer an appropriately hefty advantage.
- 100% - Permanent Targeting Marker - Taking it one step further, having the dorito always visible means you always know where that ‘mech is in 3D space.
- Decreased Missile Spread - Another LRM buff that could make sense, but I prefer lock time.
- Increased Missile Speed - Same.
- Target Outline / Highlight - Adding a highlight, outline, or some other visibility queue would make trading on foggy maps a lot easier.
- Increased Damage Taken - This is something I knew would be controversial and isn’t my cup of tea, but you could quite literally just buff damage taken at a certain point so that scouts very much mirror support classes from other online games.
- Permanently Targetable - I thought this would be way too overpowered, but it remains on the honorable mentions list to make the point that you could easily make infotech as serious as firepower, survivability, and mobility.
This is a simple, scalable solution that basically amounts to a single number being incremented for each 'mech. There's no need to implement all the tiers at once, either; starting with four or five advantages and gradually adding more is still far preferable to the status quo in which nothing matters.
Though you may have noticed in the list above, it deserves its own, special mention: I strongly believe target information sharing should tie directly into this system, meaning even targeting doritos wouldn't be shared until 'mechs are scanned for a certain period of time. The move to 12v12 killed flanking and sneaky tactics; too many eyes and instant sharing make it nearly impossible to get around behind without most of the enemy team knowing. Requiring some level of scanning in order to share targeting information not only makes scouting critically important, but it also allows for interesting maneuvers early on in the game (or even later if you've wisely kept a couple of your pilots hidden).
TL;DR: Link the total amount of time a ‘mech has been locked (“scanned”) throughout the match to progressively more powerful bonuses such as lock time reduction, increased target decay, ECM cancellation, missile buffs, always-visible health percentages, and even permanent map markers.
First off I would like to thank Homeless Bill for putting some thought into this, despite the fact PGI never even commented on his other ideas.
But...You say that the current version of Infowar is pretty weak and doesn't affect good players or players who actually utilize 'teamwork tools' like VOIP. You also say that Infowar needs to be more than about indirect fire. All this I agree with.
But your solution just seems more of the same. The first 10% is exactly what we have now, but with a Target Acquisition time (and an active component of pressing R). But then we have Sensor bonuses- but you already stated that sensors were not a large part of competitive play...Removing ECM is sort of like replacing TAG, then we have decreased missile lock times and more sensor stuff, culminating in a permanent UAV sitting over the mech.
While I think I agree with everyone of your observations about the game, it seems your solution centers around the very things you said competitive players are unaffected by.
#32
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- Ace Of Spades
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- LocationCalgary, AB
Posted 15 September 2015 - 10:03 AM
Something else would be nice, LOW Visibility on some maps where radar and thermal didn't work well, along with better visibility for mechs like the locust.
Might be interesting as you'd need scouts to call out coordinates and they could give you a "fuzzy lock" for attempted blind firing at a blob where the target square was twice the size of a normal target lock and the mech was randomly somewhere inside the square with no hit feedback on paperdoll.
Might be interesting as you'd need scouts to call out coordinates and they could give you a "fuzzy lock" for attempted blind firing at a blob where the target square was twice the size of a normal target lock and the mech was randomly somewhere inside the square with no hit feedback on paperdoll.
#33
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- Philanthropist
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Posted 15 September 2015 - 10:08 AM
Homeless Bill, on 15 September 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:
Scan Levels:
- 3% - Chassis Info / Target Designation - Like now, chassis / variant information and target designation would be shown first; unlike now, that information would also be displayed on the scoreboard for easy access.
- 5% - Paper Doll and Health Percentage - Same as now and self-explanatory.
- 8% - Weapons and Equipment Readout - Same as now and self-explanatory.
- 10% - Targeting Info Sharing - I make a case for this below, but targeting information sharing - even target marker doritos - should be tied into this system to encourage scouting and revitalize stealthy play,
- 15% - Decreased Targeting Time - Halves the delay for Paper Doll and Equipment Readout displays.
- 20% - Increased Target Decay - Adds an additional second or two before targeting locks are broken.
- 30% - Increased Sensor Visibility Range - Adds an additional 200m to the distance at which the ‘mech can be targeted.
- 40% - Health Percentage on Scoreboard - A constant health percentage display on the scoreboard, particularly combined with chassis information, would be invaluable in knowing what’s weak and what’s fresh.
- 50% - Not Hidden by ECM - It would be awesome if a concerted scouting effort nullified ECM’s cloaking effect on a particular ‘mech. To clarify, if it was an ECM-equipped ‘mech, the ECM would still cloak its teammates but not itself.
- 60% - Decreased Missile Lock Time - I went light on LRM buffs, but rapid locks for missiles is a no-brainer for heavily scouted targets.
- 70% - Instant Targeting Time - Paper Doll and Equipment Readout would be instant.
- 80% - Permanently on Radar - Like the wallhack Seismic Sensor of old days but better, this would effectively put an end to any sneaky maneuver a ‘mech tried to make. Being scanned for an extended period should confer an appropriately hefty advantage.
- 100% - Permanent Targeting Marker - Taking it one step further, having the dorito always visible means you always know where that ‘mech is in 3D space.
I really think that to add permanently a mech onto the map somehow by new magic after the scan is a little off the scale. Thoroghly scanned mech should be easier to lock, yes, and easier to detect, yes, but not to that scale, that you will have it targeted across the Alpine. I think, that some more shoud be added to this model.
First. The more mech is damaged, the less it is 'scanned' (really, the structure and all that 'profiles' changed). E.g. damage lowers 'scanned' status, to ensure you need scouts till the end of tha match, and not the first 3 minutes of it.
Second. The offence means much. Really. The game about shooting things in giant... you know the drill. Let the highest 'scanned' tiers add to the offensive capabilities agianst scanned mech rather than just marking it on the map. You yourself said that good players do not use info, they acustomed to fight under heavy ECM without it. So, making the enemy more or less visible will not add much weight to the info gathering. Plus I don't like the idea of making NARC another useless thing. I think info should buff the offence. The 'Lore' (yeah, I know) states the the pilot does not aim directly, but merely point the mech what to shoot at. If the mech is scanned the info system may try to score a better hit. This can be achieved via damage bonus (I don't like it) of via crit chances. Let the crit chance for unscanned mech be 1/10th of what it is now, and double (or more) for fully scanned. Lock required.
Edited by pyrocomp, 15 September 2015 - 10:14 AM.
#34
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- 478 posts
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Posted 15 September 2015 - 10:21 AM
I appreciate the obvious effort that went into this, and it's definitely the kind of out of the box thinking we need right now, but I'd have to give this system a pass. It's got some good ideas, but iit's also (IMO) got some serious negative consequences built into the basic structure.
The main problem is the core 'progressive' concept. Having scouting provide some more tangible benefits is not a bad idea in and of itself, but framing it as a progressive effect the longer a mech is targeted would, in my opinion, incentivize poor gameplay.
First, if it is a progressive effect, this means it is more and more powerful the longer the match goes on. However, on the flip side, this means that it is *least* powerful near the beginning. And the beginning is when a large fraction of matches are decided - that initial positional advantage, those first few mechs down. If information warefare is to be important, it needs to be able to actually influence those critical early contacts. A progressive system will all to often just mean that either the winners can mop up the losers easier or the losers can drag it out a bit longer - it'd be yet another basic gameplay mechanic that naturally snowballs.
Second, a progressive effect further incentivizes 'peeking' style gameplay. Currently the advantages of preserving your armor by peeking are strong enough that it's already the dominant tactic in a wide variety of situations. If peeking is *also* the best way to preserve your 'scanning HP', it just makes it even more of a no-brainer, especially if the current PTS system of slight targeting delays is kept in. Brawling is dead enough already, I think.
The second basic problem is that almost all of the proposed effects of being scanned amount to nerfs to being sneaky, which are not what this game needs. Tactics already overly emphasize deathballing and brute force, and this simply piles on to that. This system makes a nod to that by not allowing target sharing until 10% scan, but that is (IMO) vastly outweighed by the existence of the 30%, 40%, 50%, 70%, 80%, and 100% penalties, and also by the simple fact that comms/chat allow for a target's presence to be shared *anyway*. This is doubly annoying because the times when sneakiness shines most tend to be *later on* during close matches when the number of mechs on the field drops, but in this case that's when mechs will be most likely to have been scanned down. This further presents an undesirable choice between negatives for players, because if the game does come down to such a situation, it's exactly the players who have been fighting hardest and doing their best to help their team win who will be likeliest to have lost the ability to be sneaky along the way.
To sum up, I see this system having several undesirable consequences. First, further emphasizing the importance of the early game advantage. Second, further incentive to peek and poke instead of brawl in less organized games, or a further incentive to ignore sneaky tactics in favor of just deathballing straight down the middle in more organized ones (i.e. just quickly killing an opposing team who is wasting effort and mechs on information warefare before that effort can pay off). And third, reducing the possibility for entertaining late-game sneakiness to turn the tide.
Ultimately, the more I think about it the more I find myself preferring the simple 'no convergence unless targeted' method. It's a non-progressive effect, so it works equally early game and late, but more importantly it is a tangible, direct effect that acts to *reduce* damage output rather than increase it, doesn't give yet more incentive to hide, doesn't devalue sneakiness, and gives meaning to the targeting delay effect they've introduced.
The main problem is the core 'progressive' concept. Having scouting provide some more tangible benefits is not a bad idea in and of itself, but framing it as a progressive effect the longer a mech is targeted would, in my opinion, incentivize poor gameplay.
First, if it is a progressive effect, this means it is more and more powerful the longer the match goes on. However, on the flip side, this means that it is *least* powerful near the beginning. And the beginning is when a large fraction of matches are decided - that initial positional advantage, those first few mechs down. If information warefare is to be important, it needs to be able to actually influence those critical early contacts. A progressive system will all to often just mean that either the winners can mop up the losers easier or the losers can drag it out a bit longer - it'd be yet another basic gameplay mechanic that naturally snowballs.
Second, a progressive effect further incentivizes 'peeking' style gameplay. Currently the advantages of preserving your armor by peeking are strong enough that it's already the dominant tactic in a wide variety of situations. If peeking is *also* the best way to preserve your 'scanning HP', it just makes it even more of a no-brainer, especially if the current PTS system of slight targeting delays is kept in. Brawling is dead enough already, I think.
The second basic problem is that almost all of the proposed effects of being scanned amount to nerfs to being sneaky, which are not what this game needs. Tactics already overly emphasize deathballing and brute force, and this simply piles on to that. This system makes a nod to that by not allowing target sharing until 10% scan, but that is (IMO) vastly outweighed by the existence of the 30%, 40%, 50%, 70%, 80%, and 100% penalties, and also by the simple fact that comms/chat allow for a target's presence to be shared *anyway*. This is doubly annoying because the times when sneakiness shines most tend to be *later on* during close matches when the number of mechs on the field drops, but in this case that's when mechs will be most likely to have been scanned down. This further presents an undesirable choice between negatives for players, because if the game does come down to such a situation, it's exactly the players who have been fighting hardest and doing their best to help their team win who will be likeliest to have lost the ability to be sneaky along the way.
To sum up, I see this system having several undesirable consequences. First, further emphasizing the importance of the early game advantage. Second, further incentive to peek and poke instead of brawl in less organized games, or a further incentive to ignore sneaky tactics in favor of just deathballing straight down the middle in more organized ones (i.e. just quickly killing an opposing team who is wasting effort and mechs on information warefare before that effort can pay off). And third, reducing the possibility for entertaining late-game sneakiness to turn the tide.
Ultimately, the more I think about it the more I find myself preferring the simple 'no convergence unless targeted' method. It's a non-progressive effect, so it works equally early game and late, but more importantly it is a tangible, direct effect that acts to *reduce* damage output rather than increase it, doesn't give yet more incentive to hide, doesn't devalue sneakiness, and gives meaning to the targeting delay effect they've introduced.
Edited by MuonNeutrino, 15 September 2015 - 10:22 AM.
#35
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- Philanthropist
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Posted 15 September 2015 - 10:36 AM
No-convergence-without-targeting isn't an information warfare. No scouting and anything. Simply forces players to hit 'R'. The info itself after that is still useless.
#36
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- Little Helper
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Posted 15 September 2015 - 10:51 AM
Sounds like a neat enough idea, but I have a couple problems with it as suggested.
1. The bonuses at 80% and 100% are way too good, you should never have somebody on radar permanently like that and I don't agree that scanning somebody extensively should offer advantages like that, ever.
2. The bonus at 50% assumes that ECM remains a completely unbalanced jesus box.
Otherwise it sounds pretty cool mostly.
1. The bonuses at 80% and 100% are way too good, you should never have somebody on radar permanently like that and I don't agree that scanning somebody extensively should offer advantages like that, ever.
2. The bonus at 50% assumes that ECM remains a completely unbalanced jesus box.
Otherwise it sounds pretty cool mostly.
#37
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- The Solitary
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Posted 15 September 2015 - 11:52 AM
jay35, on 15 September 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:
I would say the penalties listed for 50%-100% are a bit too strong. If we took the eight penalties listed from 0%-40% and spread them out (so one triggered every 11%), it would still be a worthwhile and useful construct without being overbearing.
Agreed. I also think it would be important to allow the scanning value for a mech to decay over time so that quality long-term scouting is rewarded and hiding from those same scouts is also rewarded. There should always be options for counterplay.
#38
Posted 15 September 2015 - 12:51 PM
Homeless Bill, on 15 September 2015 - 03:02 AM, said:
... Well thought out stuffs I'm not going to clutter up with in the reply...
As far as your progressive scanning idea, I'd definitely like to be able to test something like that on the PTS.
Some of your other ideas/statements I don't necessarily agree with, but at least they were presented intelligently and without rancor so you get kudos for that.
#39
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- The 1 Percent
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Posted 15 September 2015 - 01:36 PM
El Bandito, on 15 September 2015 - 04:17 AM, said:
Maybe when scanned enough, it will also show where the ammo is stored in that mech? 
Or maybe all attacks will have increased crit chance on internal components?
Or maybe all attacks will have increased crit chance on internal components?
Those are good suggestions, and I approve. Increased critical chance in particular would be a great way to buff damage without doing it in an "unrealistic" way.
CaptRosha, on 15 September 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:
Any consideration for a Mech to know they are being actively scanned? An Active Scan vs. Passive Scan type mode? Does the Actively scanning mech stand-out somehow compared to a passively scanning mech?
There should definitely be some HUD indication that your 'mech is being scanned. I wouldn't have any sort of a passive mode either - you're either scanning with a direct lock or you're not.
kapusta11, on 15 September 2015 - 04:32 AM, said:
Who cares about locks and paper doll info? Why bother? Is there nothing else to fix?
Exactly. No one cares because it's not that useful. What I'm talking about is adding utility to scouts through progressive buffs. There's plenty of **** to fix, but this is what I wanted to write about.
Naduk, on 15 September 2015 - 05:03 AM, said:
also have you considered a way to reset your current scan download ?
Though I didn't put it in the post to avoid further complicating things, I fully support a gradual decay to avoid being permanently lit up like a Christmas tree.
Karl Streiger, on 15 September 2015 - 05:39 AM, said:
Maybe the damage dealt towards a ~80% scanned target should be increased (based on the assumption that the sensors were able to identify shot traps)
only reason for real scouting is still a rework of those maps including multiple victory conditions that make it necessary to split your forces - and instead of running blind into the enemy blob you have to know - which objective is defended by what - and split your forces accordingly
only reason for real scouting is still a rework of those maps including multiple victory conditions that make it necessary to split your forces - and instead of running blind into the enemy blob you have to know - which objective is defended by what - and split your forces accordingly
Increased damage or critical hit chance could be implemented to make scouting directly useful in combat.
And I've got another write-up coming in a couple weeks that will address how to fix the deathball using multiple objectives.
jay35, on 15 September 2015 - 05:50 AM, said:
I would say the penalties listed for 50%-100% are a bit too strong. If we took the eight penalties listed from 0%-40% and spread them out (so one triggered every 11%), it would still be a worthwhile and useful construct without being overbearing.
I'm all for a gradual decay, and as stated, I'm fine with fewer powerful bonuses - especially for initial testing - or totally different bonuses. But I do personally like having some serious, late-tier buffs that reward the tradeoff you have to make (not scouting the rest of the enemy team) in order to unlock them.
Hans Von Lohman, on 15 September 2015 - 06:04 AM, said:
1. Wanderer's idea for weapon convergence to be tied to having a lock-on. No lock-on, no convergence.
2. Having 2+ mechs target somebody should NOT speed up the rate of progress of that list of "bad stuff" that happens to him. I don't want to promote even more focus firing on one enemy because he is the one that is getting scanned.
2. Having 2+ mechs target somebody should NOT speed up the rate of progress of that list of "bad stuff" that happens to him. I don't want to promote even more focus firing on one enemy because he is the one that is getting scanned.
While it's not my first choice, I'd be cool with convergence tying in somewhere.
I think multiple 'mechs should be able to scan targets together to speed it up, but there definitely needs to be an upper limit. Somewhere between 2 and 4 'mechs should be the maximum so that you can't be instantly scouted by an entire team after taking one wrong corner.
Nerdboard, on 15 September 2015 - 06:09 AM, said:
I hope PGI picks up on this.
LordNothing, on 15 September 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:
your tldr was tldr
Skip to 5:16.
Mcgral18, on 15 September 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:
Honestly, I don't like it. A 1KM BAP bubble would be horrendous.
The 3 minutes for total lock is also quite long, when your average match length is 5 minutes, and the stomps being 3.
The 3 minutes for total lock is also quite long, when your average match length is 5 minutes, and the stomps being 3.
As noted, I'm only recommending the counter radius increase if ECM becomes essential / too difficult to cut through. ECM should not nullify scouting - period. It should cover your asses from locks at long-range (500m+), but not much else.
I agree it's a long time, but that's the whole point: you have to choose whether you're going to scout the whole enemy team to a certain extent or whether you're going to prioritize a few of their 'mechs to try to neutralize them quickly. There shouldn't be a scenario where everyone is fully scouted in under 10 minutes.
Edited by Homeless Bill, 15 September 2015 - 01:39 PM.
#40
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Posted 15 September 2015 - 02:22 PM
My questions here are this:
Does this reward peeking/poptarting since both minimize exposure to sensors?
What prevents LRMs from going godmode once you have 100% scan?
Does this reward peeking/poptarting since both minimize exposure to sensors?
What prevents LRMs from going godmode once you have 100% scan?
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