71 replies to this topic

[Mazzyplz]

you just need to see the black knight thread for a few minutes and you will see tons of people asking PGI to put the hardpoints higher up or they won't buy.

LOL! and then we have guys like mystere coming in this thread here and saying "mauler OP plz nerf or i quit" in an attempt at mockery...
is quite ironic

i am not making any of this up, go have a look

here is a complete thread dedicated to doom and gloom that the unreleased mech's hardpoints "won't stack up"

http://mwomercs.com/...is-as-i-feared/


this is concrete proof that it is not only the developers who are encouraging power creep, but the players themselves - basically those who think with their wallet and want new toys are making demands with extremely short sightedness

and soon after some of these same players are completely dumbfounded that the older mechs are turning obsolete, it would almost be funny if it wasn't SO SAD

Edited by Mazzyplz, 21 September 2015 - 05:59 PM.

[Nightshade24]

Davers, on 19 September 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

Except we are like all the big named guys from BT with our custom mechs.

Well even though 'big names' do have custom mechs. Sometimes it is due to the fact that they are built 'custom' from the factory (theoretically they could mass produce this but they do not often due to high costs, it's easier to give 1 guy XL , endo, er lasers, etc or a small merc group then refitting hundreds of mechwarriors with those luxuries )

That or just replacement from extreme battle damage such as the Yen Lo Wang (was picked up in a dump, had no missile launcher due to damage0

They didn't min/max to the map enviroment, they changed it to suit there builds. Bounty hunter still uses spammed medium lasers and 3 ppc marauder on a hot map as he does on a cold map.

[oldradagast]

Mazzyplz, on 21 September 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

this is concrete proof that it is not only the developers who are encouraging power creep, but the players themselves - basically those who think with their wallet and want new toys are making demands with extremely short sightedness

and soon after some of these same players are completely dumbfounded that the older mechs are turning obsolete, it would almost be funny if it wasn't SO SAD

Is it really "power creep" when people want a new mech to be able to compete with mechs that already n the game? Not trying to be snarky, but just pointing out how the genie is already out of the bottle, and new products have to measure up to what they'll be fighting.

While I do agree that the players - as in all games - certainly encourage power creep, I think you see that far more when people cry not to have their current top-tier meta-mech nerfed, not when they ask for a new mech that they bought to be remotely viable against stuff that already exists.

Also, without higher mounted weapons or something powerful, the Black Knight, like many mechs, has no real role or purpose in the game. This issue has been lurking for years since once you have a mech in a given weight range with good hardpoints and hitboxes, you really don't need any of the others. One could argue that info-tech is a way to try to fix this, but its proposed application that includes broad-stroked changes to every mech in the game and forced "roles" that will in no way resemble why people first bought a mech risks making the situation even worse, IMHO.

Edited by oldradagast, 22 September 2015 - 03:28 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

oldradagast, on 22 September 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

Is it really "power creep" when people want a new mech to be able to compete with mechs that already n the game? Not trying to be snarky, but just pointing out how the genie is already out of the bottle, and new products have to measure up to what they'll be fighting.

While I do agree that the players - as in all games - certainly encourage power creep, I think you see that far more when people cry not to have their current top-tier meta-mech nerfed, not when they ask for a new mech that they bought to be remotely viable against stuff that already exists.

Also, without higher mounted weapons or something powerful, the Black Knight, like many mechs, has no real role or purpose in the game. This issue has been lurking for years since once you have a mech in a given weight range with good hardpoints and hitboxes, you really don't need any of the others. One could argue that info-tech is a way to try to fix this, but its proposed application that includes broad-stroked changes to every mech in the game and forced "roles" that will in no way resemble why people first bought a mech risks making the situation even worse, IMHO.

i know you drive an awesome so that's crap and you know it; how do YOU manage to aim with your low hardpoints then?
how do atlases manage? and other like the treb also, or even some clan mechs like the nova, or gargoyle - even some of the considered good mechs like the dire wolf or ctf has low slung arms

are only NEWER mechs important? why can't the people who get the black knight just make it work? they are reacting before they even try it - what's the benchmark to compare all new mechs to, jagermech? is that what they feel they won't compete against?

or how about mechs like the bushwacker? is it completely pointless then to bring them into the game?
because the arms hang as low as a handbag?

of course the solution is not to leave the status quo as is, and give the low hardpoint mechs some other strength to make up for it;

otherwise what are we running toward? a complete redesign of all mechs since close beta to reposition all hardpoints at eye level? is that what were looking forward to here? or just removing the lower hardpoint mechs from the game eventually, i don't see what the long term plan is - or are the low hardpoint mechs like officially deprecated

Edited by Mazzyplz, 22 September 2015 - 03:43 AM.

[Robot Kenshiro]

Too much pvp. Not enough change in the game modes. This is why balancing and real balancing of mechs are always gonna happen. More change in game modes. More variety. Makes ppl worry less of why they are getting stomped and worry more on how get things done. My 2 cents.

[Anachronda]

Noth, on 16 September 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

There is a reason why online games tell you that things can change.

Yeah, well. I would probably be the first to laugh at the usual QQing about online games. I mean, yeah they change, but everyone is bound by the same rules, so who cares. However the OP did have kind of a point about the seeming trend of new mechs being OP (or at least way more powerful) while they are only obtainable for real money, then get nerfed when they are available for cbills. I didn't really care when Cheetahs came out and people cried. To me it was just another flavor of the month thing. I didn't think it was OP then, but it was a good mech. Still is now that it is nerfed.

I doubt things are going to change in this regard even assuming it's true, because, you know, PGI does need to do something to convince people to spend money so they can pay the bills.

[Anachronda]

IraqiWalker, on 19 September 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

All I can say is that PGI seems to be listening more and more, and the community recognizes when they make a mistake. There will be a way to make those mechs viable.

In the game's current state I can point to ONLY the Mist Lynx, as being somewhat bad, and in need of more help. Every other mech can work somehow.

I agree they are listening, and it's actually pretty cool how they have tried to keep communication with the community. How many games do you know where people are on a first name basis with developers and executives? Personally I have known none. The only QQ I might have is I wish more of their changes were related on the news and the forums as opposed to just twitters and town halls, but that's really my problem because I dislike twitter and don't really have time to watch hours of video to get news that could be condensed in a few lines. Even there, they are definitely communicating (shoot man, on every medium they can think of!), and they even seem to have listened to the people who prefer forum communication because I have definitely seen more improvement in that regard.

I've also said it before and I will say it again, I don't believe in useless weapons or useless mechs. If anything, it's a matter of preference and what people are comfortable with. Some mechs will be easier for you to use than others, but I still have faith that a person who is skillful enough can make use of anything if they learn how to use it.

Edited by Anachronda, 22 September 2015 - 04:32 AM.

[grayson marik]

DivineEvil, on 17 September 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

It's ironic how you're blaming PGI for killing chassies, when they're desperately trying to revive the dead ones...

No, if they would try to make every Mech viable, they would long have taken steps to implement a proper Battle Value System and replaye weight restrictions with BV restrictions both in CW and PUG matches.
For example like this.

oldradagast, on 17 September 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

Did you SEE the data on the test server?

More importantly, blinding most mechs and then hoping that there's a "sensor mech" nearby to find people is NOT going to make more mechs viable.

- The mechs that are now "scout mechs" will no doubt have their combat abilities reduced because of their awesome, new "scout powers" - because finding opponents while not being able to do anything about them is "fun."
- Meanwhile, the rest of the mechs will be blinded, making them even weaker and less useful.

In the end, the post "info-tech" meta will be dominated by the tiny number of mechs that can boat pinpoint weapons - just as before - and which can see the enemy fast enough to kill them.

The more limitations you put on a mech being viable, such as needing decent sensors on top of hitboxes, weapon boating, high hardpoints, and so on, the fewer mechs will be viable.

Quoted for truth. Restrictions are the wrong way! Actually remove restrictions like Ghost Heat, 1.4 DHS, Gaus Loading Firebutton etc.

Replace it with BV. With BV you can balance Clan vs IS without dropping 10v12, old Mechs vs new ones etc. You can even regulate the usage of the most OP Mechs by changing their BV to reflect their real combat value that is shown by their almost exclusive usage in CW and competitive leagues.

What ever balancing runs you do, every single of them just results in a new META.
And every time you anger players, that their favourite Mech does not work as before any more.

[DivineEvil]

Anachronda, on 22 September 2015 - 04:00 AM, said:

Yeah, well. I would probably be the first to laugh at the usual QQing about online games. I mean, yeah they change, but everyone is bound by the same rules, so who cares. However the OP did have kind of a point about the seeming trend of new mechs being OP (or at least way more powerful) while they are only obtainable for real money, then get nerfed when they are available for cbills. I didn't really care when Cheetahs came out and people cried. To me it was just another flavor of the month thing. I didn't think it was OP then, but it was a good mech. Still is now that it is nerfed. I doubt things are going to change in this regard even assuming it's true, because, you know, PGI does need to do something to convince people to spend money so they can pay the bills.

How about Resistance 1 package? It was available for money only, and none of the new mechs really shined or were expected to. What about Phoenix program packs, is any of the mechs were overpowered when they came by? Maybe the Shadow Hawk were somehow outstanding, but I personally found both Reinforcement mechs being quite capable to compete with them. And first of all, PGI does not and eved did prescribed an overpowered status to any mech they deliver(ed) - it is people, who sees them as overpowered and buying them la-carte just for the sake of running an opverpowered mech, not realizing that it will not and intended to persist to be so.

So where is that "seeming trend" can be visible around here? You've said yourself, Cheetahs were overpowered due to bad quirk judgement, and they were nerfed even before they became available for MCs. The only trend I see, is that game have been on a certain rise and lasted long enough, so that people begun to see patterns, where there's actually none. Please try not be one of those people and try to develop a further-going perspective on things instead.

Quote

No, if they would try to make every Mech viable, they would long have taken steps to implement a proper Battle Value System and replaye weight restrictions with BV restrictions both in CW and PUG matches.
For example like this.

I don't need links to that thread. I'm already been there, and my post have been deleted by the author. What I've wrote there, is that you cannot balance things by ignoring the balance. Battle value suggesting simply waves the hand on balance as it is and simply makes imbalance more evident. Issue is not solved by ignoring it, while also putting it into a nice gold-coated frame for everyone to watch.

Edited by DivineEvil, 22 September 2015 - 07:34 AM.

[grayson marik]

DivineEvil, on 22 September 2015 - 07:31 AM, said:

I don't need links to that thread. I'm already been there, and my post have been deleted by the author. What I've wrote there, is that you cannot balance things by ignoring the balance. Battle value suggesting simply waves the hand on balance as it is and simply makes imbalance more evident. Issue is not solved by ignoring it, while also putting it into a nice gold-coated frame for everyone to watch.

You know that this is complete BS. You may not be of my opinion but telling people that I deleted something you wrote is not only defamation. It is also dump, as everybody knows that thread authors cannot delete posts from other users.

[Mr Ezzquizo]

bye is laser spam

[Commander A9]

When you have a Firestarter that can alpha-strike an assault mech's torso to crap in one or two shots, role warfare has gone right out the window, along with lore...

[jay35]

fwiw, I drive an Awesome quite a bit and enjoy it. I do pretty well with it, too.

The negative aspect of power creep, which is a reduced TTK (Time To Kill), is easily avoided by balancing weapons first globally, and then using the right type of quirks to help underperforming mechs. I laid it out here.

[IraqiWalker]

oldradagast, on 21 September 2015 - 03:17 PM, said:

I have better things to do then debate with immature trolls like you who think they speak for everyone while accusing others of "thinking only of themselves." You've done nothing but make groundless assumptions about me, my motives, the motives of everyone who "dares" disagree with you, and even the community as a whole if you think that "we" support the illogical nuttiness on the PTS. In short, you've said a whole lot of nothing and looked like a child throwing a tantrum.

Before I ignore you for good, I figure you could use a hand in understanding what's actually going on here, so I'll spell it out for you:
- Most of my mechs are low tier; we're talking Awesomes, Hunchbacks (not just the GI), Centurions, Atlases, etc.
- I play for fun, not to polish my epeen.
- Even with those two conditions, I STILL don't want PGI screwing up the mechs I have with whatever strange, limited new "vision" or "role" they have for them.

If you can't honestly figure out why people would be concerned that random "balance" is going to vastly change the products they've purchased and enjoyed up until seeing the PTS data, then you are not qualified to speak on this subject.

I'm just gonna highlight that you are doing virtually what you're accusing the person you're responding to of.

Mazzyplz, on 21 September 2015 - 05:41 PM, said:

you just need to see the black knight thread for a few minutes and you will see tons of people asking PGI to put the hardpoints higher up or they won't buy.

I have 0 pity for any of those guys. We have the concept art, we have the previous versions of the mech in at least MW4, they should have known what the hardpoints would be like.

---

Look folks, pure and simple, mechs need to change for balance. Whenever we introduce a new mech, into the game, or a new mechanic, we have to adjust, and change the mechs, to try and make the game as balanced as possible. So no, you can't keep a P2W mech.

On the other hand, anyone that brings up cars, seems to not realize that their example works COMPLETELY against them.

Whenever a new car model hits the streets, what do all the other car manufacturers do? They release newer versions of basically the same cars they've been producing, with updated stats. Except this is the digital world, where we don't need to keep re-releasing Honda Civics with better ABS, or cruise control. We just take the ones we already have released, and tweak their stats, instead of making you buy the newer version of Honda Civic that has the better stats, while the older one is rendered completely 100% obsolete.

[Leopardo]

Tell me 1 thing - in color of this new info balace thing - if i have you as my target and you r not - you dont have red square around me. so your pin point wepons like lazers will not convergence ?

Edited by Leopardo, 28 September 2015 - 03:42 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Leopardo, on 28 September 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Tell me 1 thing - in color of this new info balace thing - if i have you as my target and you r not - you dont have red square around me. so your pin point wepons like lazers will not convergence ?

Unless they are changing how convergence works, his weapons will converge.

The way weapons converge is actually with the range finder. So wherever I aim, that's where my weapons will converge. Unless they are changing that. (which I don't recall, so I need to re-read the whole long post)

[Setun]

oldradagast, on 17 September 2015 - 03:10 AM, said:

Did you SEE the data on the test server?

More importantly, blinding most mechs and then hoping that there's a "sensor mech" nearby to find people is NOT going to make more mechs viable.

- The mechs that are now "scout mechs" will no doubt have their combat abilities reduced because of their awesome, new "scout powers" - because finding opponents while not being able to do anything about them is "fun."
- Meanwhile, the rest of the mechs will be blinded, making them even weaker and less useful.

In the end, the post "info-tech" meta will be dominated by the tiny number of mechs that can boat pinpoint weapons - just as before - and which can see the enemy fast enough to kill them.

The more limitations you put on a mech being viable, such as needing decent sensors on top of hitboxes, weapon boating, high hardpoints, and so on, the fewer mechs will be viable.

This isn't the complete set of quirks / changes. It's only the base line iteration so people can really get a feel for how the sensor systems will work out.

Scouting is going to be hella vital now because a lot of assault and heavy mechs are losing a lot of their zippy torso turn rates / movement speeds, which means knowing where your enemy is moving to is going to be critical for said heavier mechs because they will definitely not want to be caught in the back or side because it's going to be much, much harder for bulkier mechs to respond to enemies that flank them.

I will agree that pinpoint weapons will be just as popular / wanted as they currently are now, or even more so, but now that we're getting maps with much better cover to move around in it should be easier to dodge or try to avoid those types of weapons if you're not carrying any yourself.

I will say the role of forward scout sounds fun as **** and terrifying at the same time. Especially if the c-bill rewards for properly scouting rack up over time to about the same as getting a kill assist I'll be all over that.

[Leopardo]

so what you sayn is - we going to have really slow moving and torso rotating assaults and heavies - info tech less. (blind) then. and we have lights with less fire power but with info tech and movement injections?

[Chuck Jager]

I just make sure I know what I am buying. That is my responsibility.

I like sugar and alcohol, and it is not the stores job to tell me that they will hurt my health. Some of my best memories come from these foods, but I need to watch how I handle them. I also know Meta health foods are not always fun to consume, but they do make me better person on many levels.

A business usually does not lie, but they try to present what you want. It is there job to get your money. This is life period. I do not know of any manufacturer that does not have a systematic turnover in products. Unfortunately many good producers have issues that arise because their basic ideas are so much a part of the business they always loose part of their base while also not producing enough new material to generate new sales. This is not the fault of a craftsperson making a product it is the demands of our economy. Both the nature of the producer and consumer.

[Goombah]

Blizzard, at the very least, makes an effort to balance their heros in HOTS, and Riot makes a solid effort to balance out the champions, when the characters don't have horrible useless skill kits, then again, a lot of the time they replace a characters skill it.

I'm not really feeling PGI making any good effort on putting other IS assaults on par with the banshee and stalker, or getting other mediums on par with the blackjack. Or getting other lights on par with the Firestarter and Cheetah. I don't see an effort being made to make the Jenner as competitive as the firestarter, or even the Cicada as good as the fire starter.

Maybe those balances are going to be later on down the line and I simply need more faith. Aslan is coming, I just need to believe.