50 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 September 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

I think you overestimate how many active players are within each unit.

well, if all we got is 12 comps per roster, and kep seeing the same teams playing... things are even worse than I thought.

[Davers]

I hope Siriothrax can get his mic working this time so he can be easily heard. Seemed like he was using his monitor mic, and that just isn't that good.

[El Bandito]

So making a thread about it, if the Cheater had replaced the Firestarter. IS Light superiority, indeed.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 September 2015 - 04:56 PM.

[Kilo 40]

No 1 curr

[ApolloKaras]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 September 2015 - 02:20 PM, said:

EMP vs SJR for all the cookies, blah blah blah.

Re-run.

For leagues to be interesting, they need to handle rosters different.

Season Rosters, cutdowns, etc.

Spread the Comp Talent more across teams.

Kind of like how NFL cuts down to 53 players, and 46 actives for game day. Have any units entered into the league have a Max Unit Roster of like 20 players, 15 for game day, and maybe we see other units form up from former SJR, EMP, etc who want to be active, see more competitive teams.

At least for MWO, the results are bloody predictable. Larger game populations might not need artificial incentivization, but honestly, MWO Comp seen? Re-Runs.

Ummm It wouldn't work that way. Groups are communities. Why would you break up community to give parity in other groups?

EDIT I know that EMP only has 17-18 guys, I dunno how many are active. SJR doesn't have their roster public on the website.

Edited by Saxie, 17 September 2015 - 05:33 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Saxie, on 17 September 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

Ummm It wouldn't work that way. Groups are communities. Why would you break up community to give parity in other groups?

And that is why I don't find it interesting.

Lack of parity, lack of reason to keep all the best from just grouping together, means that these events are reruns.

Why do Sports teams follow these rules? Because the LEAGUES they are members to force them to to be eligible to play.

[Khobai]

something like a draft pick tournament might work.... players sign up then team captains take turns drafting players.

It would ensure that not all the best players are always on the same team.

[Bishop Steiner]

Khobai, on 17 September 2015 - 05:42 PM, said:

something like a draft pick tournament might work.... players sign up then team captains take turns drafting players.

It would ensure that not all the best players are always on the same team.

biggest thing is..... why do the inmates run the asylum? I mean the point of a league, they make the rules, and players want to play for the prizes, they follow them.

I like a Draft League..... or even a random draft. Obviously there has to be accountability, but seeing folks play together a full season draft style, would be interesting. I mean, one would assume it would be vetted comps playing in the league to begin with (once things like tiers are visible, that would help) maybe it would make things a little less predictable, a little more exciting.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 September 2015 - 12:11 PM, said:

Seriously.

Although last time we had people going

wasnt the last time where the banned 64 came out?

[Gas Guzzler]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 17 September 2015 - 06:16 PM, said:

wasnt the last time where the banned 64 came out?

No

[Kira Onime]

Amazing first match

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 September 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

And that is why I don't find it interesting.

Lack of parity, lack of reason to keep all the best from just grouping together, means that these events are reruns.

Why do Sports teams follow these rules? Because the LEAGUES they are members to force them to to be eligible to play.

I don't think you can realistically achieve parity in a league. Even with sports teams, the scrub teams tend to stay scrubs until they find a good coach+player combination with good drafting.

Mind you, I'm not against any sort of "drafting" amongst the players that want in, but realize people play want to play with each other because they trust each other to do stuff. You'll never have that consistency with random players.

Bishop Steiner, on 17 September 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

biggest thing is..... why do the inmates run the asylum? I mean the point of a league, they make the rules, and players want to play for the prizes, they follow them.

I like a Draft League..... or even a random draft. Obviously there has to be accountability, but seeing folks play together a full season draft style, would be interesting. I mean, one would assume it would be vetted comps playing in the league to begin with (once things like tiers are visible, that would help) maybe it would make things a little less predictable, a little more exciting.

Well, there would be a point where if you get a "scrub", it's probably not going to go well. Sometimes you'll get lucky (the stars may align), but you'd actually have to get many quality players joining up in the league... and I don't think there's enough to go around (at best, you could do it in a smaller format as there's only so many people that would "qualify").



Either way, you are dealing with "unrealistic" or "limited", and like your sports brackets (including NCAA brackets for March Madness), the dominant teams will almost always rise to the top.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 September 2015 - 06:39 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 17 September 2015 - 06:38 PM, said:

I don't think you can realistically achieve parity in a league. Even with sports teams, the scrub teams tend to stay scrubs until they find a good coach+player combination with good drafting.

Mind you, I'm not against any sort of "drafting" amongst the players that want in, but realize people play want to play with each other because they trust each other to do stuff. You'll never have that consistency with random players.






Well, there would be a point where if you get a "scrub", it's probably not going to go well. Sometimes you'll get lucky (the stars may align), but you'd actually have to get many quality players joining up in the league... and I don't think there's enough to go around (at best, you could do it in a smaller format as there's only so many people that would "qualify").



Either way, you are dealing with "unrealistic" or "limited", and like your sports brackets (including NCAA brackets for March Madness), the dominant teams will almost always rise to the top.

certainly can't be any worse than now.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 September 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

certainly can't be any worse than now.

You say that, but.......it definitely can.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 September 2015 - 06:40 PM, said:

certainly can't be any worse than now.

It can be.

Let's imagine for a second that you could draft "our favorite syncdropper" (or forced to).

Without trying to get too far in this... imagine a person who believes he knows better, doesn't pull his weight in a match, and blames everyone else for when his team loses... this is what you'll be facing.


The reason why we have units is that you want to play with them... and when it comes to a comp team.. you trust them to do what is necessary to win. With random players (assuming none of them are elite), you are getting vast range of people that don't understand how/when to push, or think holding a bad position is a good idea. Comp teams at least train for the situation at hand, and aren't locked into the "one move" tactic to win (like, trying to pull off blitzkrieg in chess vs higher level players - it doesn't work).

I struggle to understand why there are some that still refuse to work together, no matter what the reason. We continue to foster low level play even in the group queue, when it sorely could be better. To say that it would be easy to fix is an understatement. I'm just hoping for some semblance of teamwork and that's a hump "the rest of the playerbase" has to get over... and not worry about groups.. but worry about how to work together first and foremost.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 September 2015 - 06:52 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 17 September 2015 - 06:52 PM, said:

It can be.

Let's imagine for a second that you could draft "our favorite syncdropper" (or forced to).

Without trying to get too far in this... imagine a person who believes he knows better, doesn't pull his weight in a match, and blames everyone else for when his team loses... this is what you'll be facing.


The reason why we have units is that you want to play with them... and when it comes to a comp team.. you trust them to do what is necessary to win. With random players (assuming none of them are elite), you are getting vast range of people that don't understand how/when to push, or think holding a bad position is a good idea. Comp teams at least train for the situation at hand, and aren't locked into the "one move" tactic to win (like, trying to pull off blitzkrieg in chess vs higher level players - it doesn't work).

I struggle to understand why there are some that still refuse to work together, no matter what the reason. We continue to foster low level play even in the group queue, when it sorely could be better. To say that it would be easy to fix is an understatement. I'm just hoping for some semblance of teamwork and that's a hump "the rest of the playerbase" has to get over... and not worry about groups.. but worry about how to work together first and foremost.

which is why you have a roster larger than a company. You get Mr Rambo, you put him inactive. Cut him from the team even. Etc. Just like in real leagues. And just like real leagues you have Preseason, Practice and Regular season to get the kinks out, then they playoffs.

I get why COmp Teams play how they do now, but if you want to see innovation and something besides the same old same old, it requires a League having the balls to break th mold and try something fresh. Heck...some Comps might even find themselves learning something new and and discovering they enjoy it. Others wont, which is why you have all sorts of leagues, for all sorts of folks.

[MechWarrior3671771]

If you call a hold, then stop. If you continue to play, you accept the outcome.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 September 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

which is why you have a roster larger than a company. You get Mr Rambo, you put him inactive. Cut him from the team even. Etc. Just like in real leagues. And just like real leagues you have Preseason, Practice and Regular season to get the kinks out, then they playoffs.

It won't work. If you're going to be drafted in a league, and not play... there will be complaining about the process, which is why the groups involved would have to be smaller. It gets more problematic as you have more people involved (assuming the match requires the max 12v12, which most leagues AFAIK have usually made them smaller sized for good reason).

Then you'd have to manage people's schedules. Scheduling is always going to be a problem. For a comp unit, they'll find the time... but for someone more casual, you're going to have problems with that and dedication. This filters the pool of players quite a bit just as well, so it's not as if you can schedule something and expect people to show up reliably.

Quote

I get why COmp Teams play how they do now, but if you want to see innovation and something besides the same old same old, it requires a League having the balls to break th mold and try something fresh. Heck...some Comps might even find themselves learning something new and and discovering they enjoy it. Others wont, which is why you have all sorts of leagues, for all sorts of folks.

I don't think you can innovate that much and expect different/better results. Even in the non-standard leagues like BeerWarrior, even the comp units are still better than your average player. Not everyone will subscribe to them (which thins the pool by itself)... despite them being different and unique, but inevitably the best teams still end up on top.

I'm not sure what result you're expecting really, because at best having mixed EmP, SJR teams (and other comp units) would have interesting matches, but they'll just end up being there at the end (more or less).

The best you "could" do is try to marry a true comp team with a semi-comp unit and try to raise the level of overall play and understanding across the board (half of each team would be completely on opposite brackets, until they meet up towards the finals), but I don't think there's enough comp team rosters to do this with, and I'm not sure how many units would be interested in that. Something along those lines could help the situation though.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 September 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

No

When was that then? Cause it was a cash tourney, I remember that

[Telmasa]

I'll definitely be interested in this when/if quirks and consumable power ranger stuff isn't part of the MW:O competitive equation. And then there's the maps....

After a finalized balance pass, and if it showed up in announcements, maybe I'd bother.

For now...have fun you guys, and enjoy the winnings (I'm surprised that's gone as well as it has, kudos for that), but the current flaws in the game make it unpleasant for me to watch & enjoy in the same manner as competitive sport.

Not your fault, and it's the same reason I quickly became disenchanted with WoT's version of e-sports when that first came about. Gold ammo, spaced armor/track glitching, and invisitank meta ruined alot of that fun before it even started.


edit: On the plus side, when the game is ready & in an ideal state of assymetrical balance, y'all will have the framework and process for proper e-sports all set up, so that's good too!

Edited by Telmasa, 17 September 2015 - 08:38 PM.