57 replies to this topic

[Squigles]

Skadi, on 07 July 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Equip narc's, problem solved

I would anticipate that such a move in relationship to A4's would be utterly and totally worthless. A4 homers in TT (I'm not arguing that this is how they will/would work if implemented, only using it as a point of reference) can't interact with a NARC at all, it's TAG or nothing. I would see NARC beacons in MWO allowing your to continue to bombard a target with LRM's even when no one has a LoS on it, as the NARC itself would be providing the LoS.

[Sug]

Definitely should be included in some form. Would be nice for support mechs to have an option other than LRM's, since from what i've seen they are pretty weak atm.

[Lord Cole]

Squigles, on 07 July 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

Not that this game is strictly following TT rules anyway, but just to make a correction, TAG's aren't fired during the weapon attack phase at all.

They're actually fired between the movement phase and the weapon attack phase, this also happens to be the same time that homing A4 rounds hit which often end up with mechs failing PSR's and eating dirt before they're allowed to fire. Furthermore, not only can mechs using a TAG continue to fire their normal weapons during the weapon attack phase, but there isn't even a penalty involved unlike spotting for indirect fire.

I did not say TAG was fired during the attack phase.

I have never seen this rule before... If TAG is in use how could you fire normal weapons while spotting, wouldn't there be a disruption of the target lock?

I would like to see a reference to this if you have a link available... if so I will conceide my point.

You will have to excuse my memory all my BT books were lost in a fire a couple years ago.

[Squigles]

Bishop Steiner, on 07 July 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Yes, they should.

But they will be used AGAINST us first, since the Inner Sphere has not been able to manufacture them or TAG gear since the Second Succession War, some 200 years ago. The Clans on the other hand have the new improved version, which their Freebirth mechwarriors will be glad to rain down on our heads, when they arrive.

The first real appearance in the Inner Sphere, will be when the Com Guards use them at Tukayid, when they defeat the Clans, about 2 years into the games future. It he rest of the Inner Sphere powers are just getting experimental prototypes running, and by the time anyone outside of Liao and Marik get any reasonable access to them, we will be "enjoying" the Truce of Tukayid, just waiting for the Refusal War and the Marik/Liao assault that will sunder the FedCom.

So be careful what you wish for..... as you just might get it!

FYI, TAG was recovered by the NAIS in 3033, homing A4's by the cappies in 3044

http://www.sarna.net...cquisition_Gear
http://www.sarna.net..._Homing_Missile

Lord Cole, on 07 July 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

I did not say TAG was fired during the attack phase.

I have never seen this rule before... If TAG is in use how could you fire normal weapons while spotting, wouldn't there be a disruption of the target lock?

I would like to see a reference to this if you have a link available... if so I will conceide my point.

You will have to excuse my memory all my BT books were lost in a fire a couple years ago.

Page 143 of total warfare for TAG use, I should also make the clarification that direct fired A4 homers hit during the attack phase, but any homing A4 fired from more then 17 hexes or from offboard use offboard rules and hit during the offboard attack phase, which is immediately after the TAG phase but before the weapon attack phase.

If you need further information let me know and I'll edit in some short excerpts from the books for you.

Edited by Squigles, 07 July 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Spheroid]

delete

Edited by Spheroid, 07 July 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[Lord Cole]

Squigles, on 07 July 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Page 143 of total warfare for TAG use, I should also make the clarification that direct fired A4 homers hit during the attack phase, but any homing A4 fired from more then 17 hexes or from offboard use offboard rules and hit during the offboard attack phase, which is immediately after the TAG phase but before the weapon attack phase.

If you need further information let me know and I'll edit in some short excerpts from the books for you.

Got it, thank you...

Looks like I am going to buy a new set of books and Maps next week.

[Tincan Nightmare]

Squigles, on 07 July 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Page 143 of total warfare for TAG use, I should also make the clarification that direct fired A4 homers hit during the attack phase, but any homing A4 fired from more then 17 hexes or from offboard use offboard rules and hit during the offboard attack phase, which is immediately after the TAG phase but before the weapon attack phase.

If you need further information let me know and I'll edit in some short excerpts from the books for you.

I never understood why they changed that rule from all the previous iterations to what appeared in Total Warfare. Previously the designating unit could not make a weapons attack, only physical, which makes sense that if your keeping a target painted it would be very difficult to be firing at it as well.

[Squigles]

Tincan Nightmare, on 07 July 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

I never understood why they changed that rule from all the previous iterations to what appeared in Total Warfare. Previously the designating unit could not make a weapons attack, only physical, which makes sense that if your keeping a target painted it would be very difficult to be firing at it as well.

I actually always found it more strange that you "couldn't" fire weapons at the same time you were designating with TAG. It's effectively a laser that deals no damage, it's mounted the same as one, fired the same as one. Why could you only fire one laser if you were shooting a TAG, but infinite if you were shooting regular old lasers?

[Lord Cole]

Tincan Nightmare, on 07 July 2012 - 02:49 PM, said:

I never understood why they changed that rule from all the previous iterations to what appeared in Total Warfare. Previously the designating unit could not make a weapons attack, only physical, which makes sense that if your keeping a target painted it would be very difficult to be firing at it as well.

Even so... In realtime combat you have to be one skilled pilot to pull off a paiting a target and firing your weapons. You still have to keep moving too, plus taking fire from your target and any support they may have near...

For that matter your spotter will need support... I can see this in eight vs eight or twelve v twelve... still skilled pilot

[Diomed]

No, absolutely not!

Do you like the sound of someone wrecking your mech from BVR (beyond visual range)? Do you really think its fun to be blasted to smithereens by some guy hiding safely in his base, or behind his base? Its bad enough they are allowing in-direct LRM fire, but at least LRMs have a similar range profile to other directfire weapons.

Artillery in World of Tanks works like the Arrove iV system, You can be one-shot, even in a very powerful tank, from some coward hiding in a bush at ranges that are several orders of magnitude greater than tank canons, It makes most players very angry because it is cheap. You can shoot at me but I can't shoot at you? How is this fair?

Don't give me the tired old line of, "its war, its not supposed to be fair." It is NOT war, it is a game and games are supposed to be fair. Any BVR weapons are not fair, they are not fun and they should not be in this game...EVER.

[Squigles]

Diomed, on 07 July 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

No, absolutely not!

Do you like the sound of someone wrecking your mech from BVR (beyond visual range)? Do you really think its fun to be blasted to smithereens by some guy hiding safely in his base, or behind his base? Its bad enough they are allowing in-direct LRM fire, but at least LRMs have a similar range profile to other directfire weapons.

Artillery in World of Tanks works like the Arrove iV system, You can be one-shot, even in a very powerful tank, from some coward hiding in a bush at ranges that are several orders of magnitude greater than tank canons, It makes most players very angry because it is cheap. You can shoot at me but I can't shoot at you? How is this fair?

Don't give me the tired old line of, "its war, its not supposed to be fair." It is NOT war, it is a game and games are supposed to be fair. Any BVR weapons are not fair, they are not fun and they should not be in this game...EVER.

Not entirely accurate, if I understand WoT, artillery gives you some kind of crazy top down view lobbing shells at targets. Where as homing A4 would require you to lob an A4 into the air, and then for a 2nd unit, with direct line of sight, to paint you with a targetting laser until it hits you.

[Skadi]

Diomed, on 07 July 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

No, absolutely not!

Do you like the sound of someone wrecking your mech from BVR (beyond visual range)? Do you really think its fun to be blasted to smithereens by some guy hiding safely in his base, or behind his base? Its bad enough they are allowing in-direct LRM fire, but at least LRMs have a similar range profile to other directfire weapons.

Artillery in World of Tanks works like the Arrove iV system, You can be one-shot, even in a very powerful tank, from some coward hiding in a bush at ranges that are several orders of magnitude greater than tank canons, It makes most players very angry because it is cheap. You can shoot at me but I can't shoot at you? How is this fair?

Don't give me the tired old line of, "its war, its not supposed to be fair." It is NOT war, it is a game and games are supposed to be fair. Any BVR weapons are not fair, they are not fun and they should not be in this game...EVER.

i stopped carring for you when you compared Arrows to WoT artillary, also if you get hit by someone dumbfiring LRM's your realy bad, you just take 2 steps and thats over with, ontop of that their not impossible to do away with, like i said atleast have 3 LAM's on your team and that player is useless, close in on him and he cant fight back (if hes mech can carry arrows hes gonna be slow) also it is war! its a game that has a war going on inside of it.

[Damion Sparhawk]

it's a valid weapon system and would put a lot of emphasis on teamwork which is as good a reason as any to include it in the game, however, it like any other weapon system has it's drawbacks, firstly, I can't see it having greater range than an LRM system excepting perhaps direct fire or 'dumb' launch, if I remember correctly the system was used in MW4 required a very long locking time, I suppose having a secondary piece of equipment on a friendly mech to 'paint' the target might be a better way to allocate that, however that's forcing someone else to give up tonnage so you can use this weapon, and if something happens to them well... I suppose you can fire dumb and pray
Personally, I'd rather see them bring the long tom cannon up myself ^.^ it's available to the IS during this time frame and would be a whole lot of fun if it was given some kind of reasonable targetting system.

[Skadi]

Damion Sparhawk, on 07 July 2012 - 03:06 PM, said:

it's a valid weapon system and would put a lot of emphasis on teamwork which is as good a reason as any to include it in the game, however, it like any other weapon system has it's drawbacks, firstly, I can't see it having greater range than an LRM system excepting perhaps direct fire or 'dumb' launch, if I remember correctly the system was used in MW4 required a very long locking time, I suppose having a secondary piece of equipment on a friendly mech to 'paint' the target might be a better way to allocate that, however that's forcing someone else to give up tonnage so you can use this weapon, and if something happens to them well... I suppose you can fire dumb and pray
Personally, I'd rather see them bring the long tom cannon up myself ^.^ it's available to the IS during this time frame and would be a whole lot of fun if it was given some kind of reasonable targetting system.

Mech mounted Longtom aka the bane of anything that moves slow

[zareth]

#1 I think artillery is more likely to be in the form of a called strike by a command mech than A4 from a support mech.
#2 Semi-guided LRMs > A4, for multiple reasons. Such as semi-guided LRMs are far easier to load than A4, they would also be less expensive to repair/rearm/maintain. Just a couple of the maaaanny reasons semi-guided LRM's make A4 a serious fail as a mech mounted weapon. On the whole I'd rather see semi-guided LRMs

Also, the whole Beyond Visual Range thing above is a seriously failed argument. Especially considering indirect-fire LRMs(spotted for) were available even in basic tabletop rules. "Oh my I'm getting hit by stuff I can't see! That's so lame!" standard TT player response? "That's why you kill the thing spotting for them."

[XxZylonxX]

Arrow 4 would make the raven usefull with its electronics like TAG.

[Skadi]

zareth, on 07 July 2012 - 03:09 PM, said:

#1 I think artillery is more likely to be in the form of a called strike by a command mech than A4 from a support mech.
#2 Semi-guided LRMs > A4, for multiple reasons. Such as semi-guided LRMs are far easier to load than A4, they would also be less expensive to repair/rearm/maintain. Just a couple of the maaaanny reasons semi-guided LRM's make A4 a serious fail as a mech mounted weapon. On the whole I'd rather see semi-guided LRMs

Also, the whole Beyond Visual Range thing above is a seriously failed argument. Especially considering indirect-fire LRMs(spotted for) were available even in basic tabletop rules. "Oh my I'm getting hit by stuff I can't see! That's so lame!" standard TT player response? "That's why you kill the thing spotting for them."

the Arrows are liked because of there extreme range, ontop of that they hit VERY hard in 1 blow (2 missiles will put you in some trouble if your about to enter a firefight) also theres already command artillary, the arrows exsist in the BT universe as mech mounted weapons so imo no real reason to not include them in the game :\

[Lord Cole]

Diomed, on 07 July 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

No, absolutely not!

Do you like the sound of someone wrecking your mech from BVR (beyond visual range)? Do you really think its fun to be blasted to smithereens by some guy hiding safely in his base, or behind his base? Its bad enough they are allowing in-direct LRM fire, but at least LRMs have a similar range profile to other directfire weapons.

Artillery in World of Tanks works like the Arrove iV system, You can be one-shot, even in a very powerful tank, from some coward hiding in a bush at ranges that are several orders of magnitude greater than tank canons, It makes most players very angry because it is cheap. You can shoot at me but I can't shoot at you? How is this fair?

Don't give me the tired old line of, "its war, its not supposed to be fair." It is NOT war, it is a game and games are supposed to be fair. Any BVR weapons are not fair, they are not fun and they should not be in this game...EVER.

I can kind of undertsand where you come from on this, BUT, Everyone has the ability to thwart ANY tactic used on the battlefield. There is nothing stopping you from using the tactic yourself... you still have to undertsand, some of the fun here is working with your team for a way around this.

Feather that spotter, keep a support mech back to cover your heavys and 'Saults...

[Squigles]

Skadi, on 07 July 2012 - 03:11 PM, said:

the Arrows are liked because of there extreme range, ontop of that they hit VERY hard in 1 blow (2 missiles will put you in some trouble if your about to enter a firefight) also theres already command artillary, the arrows exsist in the BT universe as mech mounted weapons so imo no real reason to not include them in the game :\

That and mech mounted A4's are the ultimate middle finger to every single fast harasser mech ever built. Hussar zinging around with a +4 move mod at long range pinging you with it's large laser and you've got 12's to hit on it? Go ahead and lob your 20 point A4 bomb at his feet using direct fire on 8's to hit.

[Lord Cole]

Dang I want to play some TT now...