6 replies to this topic

[Greyhart]

one of the problems in my opinion is that long range weapons are equally effective at short range.

If you load up on long range weapons there should be a trade off with damage at close range.

i.e. the damage graph should be a bell curve not a downward slope after the optimal range.

Of course with lasers this doesn't make a heap of sense.

How about if the damage within a certain range gets spread over the adjoining compartments. The spread becoming worse the closer you are. So you do the full damage but not focused.

Of course things like small lasers would retain pinpoint at 0 metres.

You could also apply this to distances over optimal so that damage across the map is still the same but spread over more than one part.

I would hope this would encourage a range of weapons rather than boating.

Also hopefully easier to work in the game as it is a calculation that takes place at time of the hit.

It would also make the pinpoint damage skill useful.

[Anachronda]

The tradeoff is in heat, weight, and crit space. Also you may notice that regular PPCs and LRMs both have a minimum range. Inner sphere versions of these do no damage if you are closer than that range, and Clan versions do reduced damage - I think half damage.

ERLLs don't do less damage, but do generate more heat and weigh more. They also take up more crit spaces as do many other weapons. Gauss rifles - eek. I don't even like to think about the crit space on those.

[Greyhart]

actually looking at a small laser vs erLL

ERLL h= 8 CD=3.25 Damage=9 dur= 1.25

SmL (will need 3 hits to equal that damage as 3D) so: H= 6 CD= 6 Dur = 2.25

So the small laser looses on every count over the ERLL (except heat spikes), yes you can't fire it as often but you do 3 times the damage for almost half the face time as a small laser. Plus you can do that over longer distances.

[IraqiWalker]

Greyhart, on 28 September 2015 - 02:03 AM, said:

actually looking at a small laser vs erLL

ERLL h= 8 CD=3.25 Damage=9 dur= 1.25

SmL (will need 3 hits to equal that damage as 3D) so: H= 6 CD= 6 Dur = 2.25

So the small laser looses on every count over the ERLL (except heat spikes), yes you can't fire it as often but you do 3 times the damage for almost half the face time as a small laser. Plus you can do that over longer distances.

Could you please show me where the Small laser gets a cooldwn of 6?

3 SLs weight in at 1.5 tons, take up 3 slots, deal 9 damage, generate a total of 6 heat (it should be 3 heat actually, but they nerfed the SL for some reason beyond logical comprehension), and have a CD of 2.25 with a duration of 0.75 seconds. Unless you're chain firing them, in which case you're not trying to match them against the ERLL, and will lose because you're chain firing small lasers, instead of alpha firing them.


EDIT: A proper way of actually comparing laser systems against the ERLL is to look at what you get from it, and how much you need to invest in it. The ERLL gives you 9 damage for 2 slots, and 5 tons.

So let's think slot wise, 2 MPLs at 4 tons, and 2 slots, will actually give you 12 damage for 8 heat, 3.00 CD, and 0.6 duration.

The ERLL will lose to the 2 MPLs (which, despite their name, are actually short range weapons) in short range, while still costing you a ton more, burning for more than double the duration, and having a longer cooldown (CD is increased by the fact that burn durations are different)

Where the ERLL wins is at combat above 400 meters. So, the long range weapon wins at long range, and loses at short range, as it should.

Another thing to consider is hardpoint count on a mech. Mechs with few hardpoints tend to pack the big, and heavy guns (usually long range ones), to bring as much damage as possible per hardpoint. So a mech with 3 - 4 energy hardpoints and over 20 tons of free space, should bring LLs/ERLLs. Whereas mechs like the Thunderbolt 5SS have a lot of hardpoints, better utilized by having a lot of smaller guns.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 28 September 2015 - 02:45 AM.

[Greyhart]

according to http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

the cool down on an Small laser is 2.25 as you need to fire 3 times the total cooldown will be over 6.

The idea is that the larger weapons would still do the same amount of damage, just spread out if the target is closer than the optimal.

It could be implemented in such a way that if you fire one laser then it does pinpoint damage to one part. If however you fire another one at the same time (or whilst the first is firing) the damage gets slightly spread (depending on range). Again damage would not be reduced but spread like a PPC hit.

The question is of course does crits and weight actually balance the weapon? because the damage stats at short range still favour the larger weapons.

of course if heat was more of a restriction the heat spike from the large weapons would balance as it would in effect add additional cool down

Edited by Greyhart, 28 September 2015 - 03:22 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Greyhart, on 28 September 2015 - 03:21 AM, said:

according to http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

the cool down on an Small laser is 2.25 as you need to fire 3 times the total cooldown will be over 6.

The idea is that the larger weapons would still do the same amount of damage, just spread out if the target is closer than the optimal.

It could be implemented in such a way that if you fire one laser then it does pinpoint damage to one part. If however you fire another one at the same time (or whilst the first is firing) the damage gets slightly spread (depending on range). Again damage would not be reduced but spread like a PPC hit.

The question is of course does crits and weight actually balance the weapon? because the damage stats at short range still favour the larger weapons.

of course if heat was more of a restriction the heat spike from the large weapons would balance as it would in effect add additional cool down

Wait. Let me understand your post. You said you need "three small" lasers. I assumed that meant you would have 3 small lasers, not one and fire it three times.

A single small laser shouldn't be used, or expected to win a 1v1 against an ER Large Laser. You use the small lasers on small mechs, usually ones that pack multiples of them. That's how you compensate. You trade high heat, and long cooldown, for more slots, and less range.

A single small laser doesn't win against an ERLL, and if it does, it's usually extremely difficult.
In a scenario where it's a Stalker with one ERLL, and a Locust with 3 SLs, the Locust has a chance. If it's got only 1 SL, that locust pilot needs to get legendary, to win.

One of the main advantages of the SL over the ERLL is that I can bring bunches of it. Why do you think we run our Locust 1Es with SPLs, instead of an ERLL? When in effect, we're paying 6 tons for that armament? Instead of 1 ERLL, and an extra DHS? Because much like how the first allied tanks where absolute garbage against Germany's Tigers, and Panthers. The Swarm is it's own advantage.

As I mentioned in my previous post, mechs with fewer hardpoints will bring bigger guns. Mechs with more hardpoints will bring lots of smaller ones.

BTW, a scaling heat penalty system would be a good addition to the game in my opinion.

[Greyhart]

I understand that my comparison was a false one as no one would logically want to put a ERLL against a SL.

however it generally is a very simple question what is the largest gun I can get in this thing.

I agree they need to do something. What that is I don't know, but spreading the damage of long range weapons at short range could be one.

Also crit sized hard points would work as a balancing mechanic. Although that would be such a large change it is never going to happen.

the nub of the problem is that certain weapons deliver all their damage consistently to 1 part and at a good range an don't have any disadvantages at any shorter range making a limited logical choice in weapons.