56 replies to this topic

[xe N on]

Laser should get reduced range by 1/2 but max range should be 3x. Reason: laser beams are scattered by atmosphere.

Autocannon range should be doubled and speed slightly increased.

SRMs speed should be doubled and spread should be reduced.

Problem solved.

Edited by xe N on, 25 September 2015 - 07:34 AM.

[FupDup]

John1352, on 25 September 2015 - 07:28 AM, said:

PPCs have only had velocity nerfed since the poptarting meta. (I think it was the jumpjets that really killed it)

Actually, it was the Dire Whale boating 2 ERPPC + 2 Gauss that caused PPCs to be velocity nerfed.

...Well, okay they were actually nerfed twice. The first nerf down to 1500 m/s was because of poptarting, then the second nerf down to 850/950 was because of the Dire Whale.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yellonet, on 25 September 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

Much more work than my solution and effectively halving TTK at the same time...

That's not work, its changing values in an .XML file.

Please show the maths that show a 50% reduction in TTK due to some projectile velocity increases and LBX and SRM spread. If that math doesn't exist, put that unsubstantiated ******** away.

People really cry about laser vomit a little too much. No matter what you are going to do, you will have IS mechs running medium lasers. Its not like mechs with lots of energy hardpoints have anything else to do, so the cries of "everyone uses lasers, they are OP" is kind of garbage. IS medium lasers are not OP, but they will be used plentifully because they are 1 ton filler weapons.

If you do decide to nerf lasers into the ground as you have proposed, you are effectively destroying any IS mech that has primarily energy hardpoints. **** that.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 25 September 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Alternate suggestion.

Lasers do not do constant damage through their entire burn.

They do most of it in the middle or in the end. Forces you to hold it on target longer, keeps damage the same, but doesn't reward just a half second graze as much. This would mean that the first initial touch isn't as damaging.

[Ultimax]

Yellonet, on 25 September 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

Much more work than my solution and effectively halving TTK at the same time...

Your solution shows you haven't learned from the mistakes of this game's past, and it shows a myopic view of the game in general.


Back before clan mechs were in the game, lasers were only a rung above LRMs and talked about in the same tone as we still talk about LB ACs.

They needed face time, against weapons that did not (AC/PPC/Gauss) on builds that reigned supreme.


Those weapons got nerfed, and we got the best versions of lasers the game has had yet - hence the current laser meta as people now abandoned their nerfed PPCs and the ACs that tend to work better with them.


On top of that, we've already had CERLLAS at 2s burn duration, they were idiotic and unfun - even 1.5s is pushing the upper limit of what is acceptable and viable and the only reason they are is because they are a 4 ton, 1 slot weapon you can put into heads that fire out to an amazing 814m before damage drop off.


I'm not even done!


Then, two of the best mechs in their weight classes had their laser burn times nerfed really freaking hard. They were nerfed so hard most people stopped playing these amazing mechs.





TL;DR: Your idea is poorly conceived and would be bad for multiple reasons.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 25 September 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Longer recharge on large lasers...

Higher heat on medium...

leave small the way they are..


this would make ammo based weapons a better option to raise damage. But the draw back would be having to deal with ammo, which is one of the reasons why people don't use them. It would limit DPS, and make people have to take less chances on firing till they make sure they hit..

It would make closing to brawl range a bit safer as you would take less shots from the long range because of longer cooldowns.

If the laser boats want to keep up DPS, they would need to close range to get their higher DPS small lasers working. If they didn't use up weight on small lasers.. then they would really be at a disadvantage when they get in a close range fight.


simple yet effective

Edited by JC Daxion, 25 September 2015 - 12:44 PM.

[Mystere]

Yellonet, on 25 September 2015 - 04:01 AM, said:

This is a very simple way to try and balance lasers with other weapons, it would be very easy for PGI to implement this on a test server.

Simply: Double all laser durations.

I say: Bring back the poptarts! Buff JJs! Buff PPCs! Remove the gauss charge!

Edited by Mystere, 25 September 2015 - 11:33 AM.

[Yellonet]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

That's not work, its changing values in an .XML file.

Please show the maths that show a 50% reduction in TTK due to some projectile velocity increases and LBX and SRM spread. If that math doesn't exist, put that unsubstantiated ******** away.

Don't make me laugh at you. How much math and substance is there behind your suggested buffs?
You want to change lots of different things, and nothing that will combat the over usage of lasers.
I want to change only one set of values; a much more controlled test.

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

People really cry about laser vomit a little too much. No matter what you are going to do, you will have IS mechs running medium lasers. Its not like mechs with lots of energy hardpoints have anything else to do, so the cries of "everyone uses lasers, they are OP" is kind of garbage. IS medium lasers are not OP, but they will be used plentifully because they are 1 ton filler weapons.

If you do decide to nerf lasers into the ground as you have proposed, you are effectively destroying any IS mech that has primarily energy hardpoints. **** that.

What makes you think only IS mechs would be affected?

[Yellonet]

Ultimatum X, on 25 September 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

Your solution shows you haven't learned from the mistakes of this game's past, and it shows a myopic view of the game in general.


Back before clan mechs were in the game, lasers were only a rung above LRMs and talked about in the same tone as we still talk about LB ACs.

They needed face time, against weapons that did not (AC/PPC/Gauss) on builds that reigned supreme.


Those weapons got nerfed, and we got the best versions of lasers the game has had yet - hence the current laser meta as people now abandoned their nerfed PPCs and the ACs that tend to work better with them.


On top of that, we've already had CERLLAS at 2s burn duration, they were idiotic and unfun - even 1.5s is pushing the upper limit of what is acceptable and viable and the only reason they are is because they are a 4 ton, 1 slot weapon you can put into heads that fire out to an amazing 814m before damage drop off.


I'm not even done!


Then, two of the best mechs in their weight classes had their laser burn times nerfed really freaking hard. They were nerfed so hard most people stopped playing these amazing mechs.





TL;DR: Your idea is poorly conceived and would be bad for multiple reasons.

Sorry, I didn't see the reasons why the idea was bad...
Lasers have many advantages to other weapons but not any real disadvantage, heat is always manageble unless you do some stupid build.
With my suggestion the disadvantage would be the need to keep aiming at the target for a longer time.
Ballistics would be pinpoint instant damage, lasers would be more difficult to pinpoint, but has the ability to have a larger alpha. As it is now it's too easy to use lasers as pinpoint weapons, hence why ballistics aren't as popular.

Why do you think people are using only lasers on mechs that can have ballistics?

[FrontGuard]

NO!!!
People who think Lasers are OP are People who Don't Use Lasers.
If you did you would know how careful and disciplined you have to be to use them.
If your not you Over Heat an just sit there!
Stop Crying and Try Them.

Edited by FrontGuard, 25 September 2015 - 12:58 PM.

[DjPush]

Remove the quirks. Thats how you balance them. When mechs started getting ridiculous ranges from medium and medium pulse lasers, there was no need for ballistics. There was once a time when ballistics were used to continue damaging the enemy while your mech cooled. There was a time in this game when pairing ballistics with energy weapons was viable. Now ballistics are often considered wasted tonnage when you can strap 8 quirked out and moduled medium lasers that can reach 400 meters and generate less heat than an ac20.

[Night Thastus]

Right now, all laser weapons can fire 2x their "optimal" range. I think that should just be plain removed. Right now, ballistics have that as well, but you can't hit **** at that range, so it's pointless. With lasers, you can.

Do that, and now you've helped to balance the lasers.

[DjPush]

Its f**kin stupid how careless they were to introduce quirks. Now it's all that matters in this game. They preached layered combat in the early days of this game. "A thinking mans game." My arse! Quirks turned this game into a COD with mechs.

In my opinion... End rant.

[FupDup]

DjPush, on 25 September 2015 - 12:58 PM, said:

Remove the quirks. Thats how you balance them. When mechs started getting ridiculous ranges from medium and medium pulse lasers, there was no need for ballistics. There was once a time when ballistics were used to continue damaging the enemy while your mech cooled. There was a time in this game when pairing ballistics with energy weapons was viable. Now ballistics are often considered wasted tonnage when you can strap 8 quirked out and moduled medium lasers that can reach 400 meters and generate less heat than an ac20.

Because Clan mechs have so many laser quirks...

[Deathlike]

I don't think some people experienced the brief "CERLL @ 2.0s duration" era where our favorite Paulconomist was exiled temporarily from balance (into CW... oh boy).

Even today, not that many people run CERLL builds unless in specialized cases, while Clan LPL is the the preferred long range weapon of choice (assuming you're not already splurging on CERMEDs).

So.. I'd suggest you'd really think your opinions though, as doubled longer durations will instantly kill this game and produce a Paulocaust level of whinage that well... speaks for itself.

[Gas Guzzler]

Deathlike, on 25 September 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

I don't think some people experienced the brief "CERLL @ 2.0s duration" era where our favorite Paulconomist was exiled temporarily from balance (into CW... oh boy).

Even today, not that many people run CERLL builds unless in specialized cases, while Clan LPL is the the preferred long range weapon of choice (assuming you're not already splurging on CERMEDs).

So.. I'd suggest you'd really think your opinions though, as doubled longer durations will instantly kill this game and produce a Paulocaust level of whinage that well... speaks for itself.

At least, until the Paulgorithm takes control of the entire game whenever that hits the live servers. It's only a matter of time before the Paulgorithm becomes self-aware.

DjPush, on 25 September 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

Its f**kin stupid how careless they were to introduce quirks. Now it's all that matters in this game. They preached layered combat in the early days of this game. "A thinking mans game." My arse! Quirks turned this game into a COD with mechs.

In my opinion... End rant.

My Executioner wrecks without any quirks. How weird.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 25 September 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

I don't think some people experienced the brief "CERLL @ 2.0s duration" era where our favorite Paulconomist was exiled temporarily from balance (into CW... oh boy).

Even today, not that many people run CERLL builds unless in specialized cases, while Clan LPL is the the preferred long range weapon of choice (assuming you're not already splurging on CERMEDs).

So.. I'd suggest you'd really think your opinions though, as doubled longer durations will instantly kill this game and produce a Paulocaust level of whinage that well... speaks for itself.

Why remember?

Go grab the Timby, load up all the E hardpoints, have a +16% duration.

Only a 1.74s cERLL burn time, but it makes a nice example.

That's LESS than the proposed isML burn time is.

[Gas Guzzler]

I feel like the issue stems from people waiting to be shot before trying to twist away or move to spread damage. You have to think ahead (THINKING MANS SHOOTER, RIGHT HERE), and expect that when you are outside of cover trying to scan for enemy targets, you are probably going to get hit hard with something. If you see someone looking at you in the corner of your screen and then try to aim and get your shots off, you lose that trade. If you THINK "Okay, I will lose this trade because he already sees me and is lining up his weapons. He will probably get his full laser vomit burn on me as I just begin to fire my own lasers, and he will spread my alpha across his chest and arm" and then immediately twist away and move to get behind cover, you are going to get tickled but will probably get away more or less unscathed, and then you search for a spot that will allow you to get the drop on them, as opposed to the other way around.

For me, this is one of those things I forget to do when I get extremely tired, and I will immediately notice that I am getting gored through the CT a lot faster. That's how I know when it is either time for more coffee or time to go to bed.

[Yellonet]

Gas Guzzler, on 25 September 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

My Executioner wrecks without any quirks. How weird.

Yes, very wierd, I wonder why....

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 25 September 2015 - 01:28 PM, said:

Why remember?

Go grab the Timby, load up all the E hardpoints, have a +16% duration.

Only a 1.74s cERLL burn time, but it makes a nice example.

That's LESS than the proposed isML burn time is.

I'd like to forget using CERLL.. like ever (I barely use them outside of when I used the Stock Stormcrow-Prime based build way back when I started using them).