129 replies to this topic

[Pat Kell]

Captain Fabulous, on 08 July 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

Unless they redid Ammo distribution, one ton of AC-20 ammo is 5 shots. Break down is that AC(rating) times (number of rounds) = 100.

AC-2 has 50 shots
AC-5 has 20 shots
AC-10 has 10 shots
AC-20 has 5 shots.

Not to mention that an AC-20 takes up ten crit slots on a mech.

yes i am aware that the ac/20 has just 5 shots, sorry i wasn't more clear on my original post. what I meant to say was that if you wanted 10 shots you could do it by spending another ton. so you spend 1 ton to make your ac/20 usuable then spend a second ton to get another 5 shots. was just assuming you all understood that you would be spending the first ton for 5 shots as kind of a no brainer, who would go into battle with and ac/20 that had no ammo.

Edited by Pat Kell, 08 July 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Bongo TauKat]

I think trying to figure out the real world equivalent of the AC 20s and 10s is kind of pointless. If they were real, their effective ranges are of course laughable at best. Battletech is a balance simulation, not a wargame.

I went with the AC10 for the range more or less. While double the damage is nice, it seems that most of the time the offending mech sustains serious damage trying to get its biggest gun in play. The 10 allows you to reach out and touch someone with a higher damage curve from the max range down to the 20s max.

[Bobfrombobtown]

Endless Ike, on 08 July 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

The problem with the shotgun analogy is that they're not a shotgun...thats the LB-X autocannon.
*snip* a bunch of other words were here. including something about not giving a sniper a .22 caliber round. (it's actually 5.56,mm, or .223 caliber, but whatever)

As to the "it's not a shotgun" I stated "solid slug" ammunition for a reason. Not bird shot, not buck shot. Solid slug.
As to the whole "snipers don't use small caliber rounds for sniping," here have two gifts
Just because everyone in your CoD games uses something like a Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle does't mean that's what all actual military snipers use.

[Strum Wealh]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 July 2012 - 07:14 AM, said:

Seems I should have jumped to page two.... your points and mine being nearly identical. And hey, if ther eis one thing a Davy like you should know, it's AutoCannons!

-----

So to expand on that, here are some personal estimates I like to use:

AC-2:
Caliber Range: 20mm to 40mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 800-1700 m/s
Basis: M61 Vulcan, GAU-8 Avenger, RARDEN, Rheinmetall MK 20 Rh 202, Bofors 40 mm

AC-5:
Caliber Range: 50mm to 90mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 550-1130 m/s
Basis: 5 cm Pak 38, 90 mm Gun M1/M2/M3, Cannone da 90/53, Ordnance QF 75 mm, Bofors 57 mm Gun

AC-10:
Caliber Range: 100mm to 140mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 590-1750 m/s
Basis: BL 5.5 Inch Medium Gun, 13.5 cm K 09, BL 4 Inch Naval Gun Mk VII, D-10 Tank Gun, Rheinmetall 120 mm Gun

AC-20:
Caliber Range: 150mm to 203mm
Muzzle Velocity Range: 300-950 m/s
Basis: 8"/55 caliber gun, 20.3 cm K (E), 15 cm K (E), Skoda 150 mm Model 1918

Based on the above, I would suggest the following values for average muzzle velocities:
AC-2: ~1500 m/s
AC-5: ~1200 m/s
AC-10: ~900 m/s
AC-20: ~600 m/s

Canon effective ranges (based on the "long" ranges listed here and "1 hex = 30 meters"):
AC-2: 720 meters
AC-5: 540 meters
AC-10: 450 meters
AC-20: 270 meters

This would give average travel times of:
AC-2: 0.48 seconds
AC-5: 0.45 seconds
AC-10: 0.50 seconds
AC-20: 0.45 seconds

-----

As seen in the various linked-to real-world weapons, having a lower muzzle velocity for larger weapons would actually be both normal and realistic.

As such, I would imagine that, in terms of ROF, the AC-2s (~20-40 mm) would behave more like very large SMGs and AC-5s (~50-90 mm) would behave more like very large ARs while AC-10s (~100-140 mm) would behave more like tank guns and AC-20s (~150-203+ mm) would behave more like direct-fire versions of heavy artillery (howitzers and naval artillery).

It should be noted that the caliber ranges above are estimates/rules-of-thumb on my part, and that ACs in BT/MW are classified by damage output rather than by caliber (that is, a 20 mm AC that fires two shells per second and a 40mm AC that fires one shell per second can both be "AC-2s" as long as each deals around two units of damage to 'Mech armor over a ~10 second period).

Your thoughts?

[ZivyTerc]

mwhighlander, on 08 July 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:

This is like comparing a medium laser to a large laser. One isn't better than the other, they are different. You cannot compare a cantaloupe to a melon. Sure, they are both fruit and one is bigger than the other, but that doesn't make it better.

I am pretty sure melon is a vegetable, same family as pumpkins and cucumbers :-P Regarding the main topic - I mostly prefer AC10 because it carries more ammo and missing is not such a tragedy, but I am horrible shooter so I miss often... In general I don't think one is better than the other, they're different weapons for different situations/loadouts.

Edited by ZivyTerc, 08 July 2012 - 07:45 AM.

[HANGMAN1962]

ok each weapon has a long/medium/short range.
as you get to the shorter ranges you accuericy increases.
now when that ac 20 starte to be able to hit an ac10/lb10x mech that ac10/lb10x mech is at short to med range soo just who will be able to hit more often then?
now this short/med/long range rule apply's to all weapons so pls do the math
ac 10 can only do 1/2 the dmg but outside of ac20's reach.
there by nullifing the ac20 dmg alltogether.
and yes a guass s good too but has a min range.{if thay get inside that range its not good}
using 2 ac 20's is no good if everything can just run out of there range in no time flat.
{then you have all most 30 tons of ballistics that are dead wieght !
i;m just druoling to see a twin ac20 mech ingame cus ita indirectly goin to mass mobbed lols
pls read battle histery for the king crab as thats why thay made the guass rifle version!
cus every one would evade the kingcrab and kill all his lancemates of then circlejerk the kingcrab.
now personaly i'd use the LB-10-X as it has ac5 range over the ac10's large laser range.
and this gives the LB-10-X 2 TIMES THE AC 20'S RANGE, and then the LBX starts to look real good to me!
{oh sweet im starting to hit better w/ the LBX and that ac20 still cant shoot me yet, now just keep him at this range and i'm golden}
oh yes and lets not forget the bonus of LBX guns
you can swap ammo to lbx ammo and it shoots buckshot rounds!{thats 5 2point slugs that are ezer to hit you aponent with}
thhe guns ammo increases your chances of hitting by using the buckshot instead of a single slug.
hope this helps you out guys.

sincerly the"hangman"

[Bobfrombobtown]

Strum Wealh, on 08 July 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

Your thoughts?

A lot of awesomeness and I'm too lazy to click through everything to verify all of your proposed facts. Since the major reasons for range limits, or more correctly effective ranges, are muzzle velocity, size/aerodynamic efficiency, and mass.
Short version: Seems legit. No really, I mean it.

[ZivyTerc]

HANGMAN1962, on 08 July 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

.

sincerly the"hangman"

Hangman you are obviously very knowledgeable about mechwarrior and battletech, but your style of writing gives me headaches :-P

[Psweet]

ZivyTerc, on 08 July 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

I am pretty sure melon is a vegetable, same family as pumpkins and cucumbers :-P

Ah, but all of those are, in fact, fruits. As well as vegetables. Vegetable is a culinary term, fruit is both culinary and biological. Same goes for tomatoes, squash, and other vegetables that have seeds inside of them

[BluefireMW]

I prefer the AC10. It's more flexible and you are not so close to the enemy that they find you attractiv as first target.
Normally 2 of the AC10, i.e. in a modified Jagermech, should make the day. perhaps, there is some more armor left then.
The only exception is as always the close city fight. There is nothing better then short heavy punch on low distances.

Most times the fear of a AC 20 makes people concentrate fire, even if they don't want to do it normally.

[HANGMAN1962]

yes sorry thats my adhd kickin in m8 i get to inpaceint to spellcheck, my bad!

[Hot Rod]

i voted for the ac20, will be my only shortrange weapon.

pros of an ac 20:
1 shot, 1 dmg spike in 1 location where its needed. medium/longrange power comes from other sources.

compared to an ac 10:
no spread dmg over the whole mech, no double time to aim and fire (and heck, hit the same location twice) under the suppression fire of the enemy... try that if u get hammered by knocking weapons

jagermech is an other story...

Edited by Hot Rod, 08 July 2012 - 08:00 AM.

[Furniture]

I'd probably have to say AC/10. And the only reason that I say that is the range. If it's true that the armor values are doubled, but the ammo per ton is not, then the AC/20 really doesn't have that much punch per shot compared to how it was on tabletop. If it can't be crippling heavies and mediums with single shots, and knocking out a light in one shot, then what purpose does it serve? Better to have the longer range so that you can start dealing the damage farther away so that by the time you get up close they are already damaged enough that you can finish them quickly.

[Murku]

AC10 got my vote.

ACs for me are ideal on Medium to Heavy Mechs, too big to work well on Lights and too restrictive to use on slow Assaults. This is because I usually look for a two-group weapon setup - an Ammo set and a Heat set - as this makes decisionmaking easier for my lower-twitch brain. Mechs like the vanilla Commando, Jenner, Hunchback and Catapult as set up this way already, and I tend to shift the other designs in a similar fashion. In doing this the afformentioned Mediums and Heavies work well with ACS, while my Lights and Assaults tend to become hybrid Laser/Missle boats.

My Mediums are likely to get an AC10 (or LBX), as higher potentual mobility can make a fun Scout Hunter or Harrasser. This role (fast enough but not the fastest) currently most appeals to me hence the AC10 vote.

By the time I'm going all out to get an AC20 on a Heavy I can't help but think a Gauss Rifle would have served me better, resources willing. 5 shots a ton (i know overall damage is identical) really makes the thing feel like so much potentual dead weight. And every time I land a hit with that monster I'd find myself hesitating for half a second expecting a kill.

This has likely been covered a gazillion times elsewhere on the forum but I find myself incredulous:
Are they really not going to double the TT ammo values to match the game's doubled armor?????

Edited by Murku, 08 July 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[Barad]

I voted for the AC 10, for the longer range. I also like the fact it works well with a Large Laser (LOVED the Enforcer! Can't wait to drive one!)

Having said that... NO other AC gets a reaction like an AC20. If the targeted pilot knows the game, his reaction is usually:

BTW... Great post Strum Wealh, thanks!

Edited by Barad, 08 July 2012 - 09:01 AM.

[Dreadnot]

Will there be Ultra or LB AC's

[Murku]

UAC5, LBX10

[monev]

why use an AC 20 when you can use 9 machine guns?

[Glythe]

Since no one has brought it up let me say that I think the issue is going to depend on what mech you are using and hence you will need to decide what range you want to control.

I do not like the AC 20 for my Atlas when I consider the much attractive alternative of the Gauss rifle. But in the spirit of preferring the heavier weapon I voted for AC 20. As others have said bigger damage per shot is going to be very attractive when you have people maneuvering to make sure you do not hit the same spot over and over again (loop stepping, torso twisting, etc). If I were taking the AC 20 I would bring weapons to make up for the lack of its range.

But if I were using the hunchback I would take the AC 10 in a heartbeat as I think you're going to need the range to survive and you will probably suffer too much if you try to bring the Gauss rifle on a lighter mech.

monev, on 08 July 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

why use an AC 20 when you can use 9 machine guns?

Because this game has a hardpoint system. You would need to find a mech with 3 ballistic slots in the torso, and 3 in each arm to get 9 machine guns. Remember the devs have taken a no boating approach so I doubt you'll ever find enough hard points for that many ballistic weapons.

Edited by Glythe, 08 July 2012 - 09:44 AM.

[MechaDraco]

Ive never really liked the ammo classes weapons aside from the LRM's and like, they hit harder then most lasers which is great, but I find myself often out of ammo with the mech I was shooting at still alive, might be failure on my part which I understand, but I prefer a good laser or tons of missiles to blow my target at a distance.

However the vote is for one AC over another, and I have tried both of these plenty to know which I do prefer, which is the AC20, though less ammo, due to its requirement to be closer, I can usually get in more hits before running low, which I can then use my rockets, or lasers to finish the job, but still would prefer a laser battery and missile barrage.