39 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Just find a T1 player with negative WLR. Anyone? Anyone? Step out now, for science!

After all, one can gain PSR in 4 situations and only lose in 2 situations, right?

Edited by El Bandito, 01 October 2015 - 04:41 PM.

[MrJeffers]

El Bandito, on 01 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Just find a T1 player with negative WLR. Anyone? Anyone? Step out now, for science!

Sure, show me the list of players with 10,000 matches since January, a negative W/L ratio, and average PSR per match of 400.

[El Bandito]

MrJeffers, on 01 October 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

Sure, show me the list of players with 10,000 matches since January, a negative W/L ratio, and average PSR per match of 400.

Hence I am asking. I'll wait another full year if need be. Just hoping he shows up eventually.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 October 2015 - 05:01 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

El Bandito, on 01 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Just find a T1 player with negative WLR. Anyone? Anyone? Step out now, for science!

After all, one can gain PSR in 4 situations and only lose in 2 situations, right?

PSR is a system of accumulated points. It is functionally an XP bar that goes up fastest for good players, and goes up slower for fair players.

This is "common knowledge" that hasn' sunk into many people's heads yet.

[Mazzyplz]

psr is mostly an xp grind (for now); it seems the number it takes into consideration is your wins minus your losses.

it seems to be what the data from several players is showing.


there is a clear bias there however because if you have played many matches and you improve slowly your psr will move slowly where you could just make a fresh account and climb a lot higher to "where you truly belong" if you work at it!- because you don't have extra baggage of hundreds of matches of when you were a 'bad' or you were leveling a trash mech... or when you were playing an off variant; or lurming for fun.. etc etc
(which you really shouldn't care about in the end)

which is not what we have here (players for now are in the wrong place... but someday!! hopefully? they will all be sorted up/down? if played enough matches..); also players can be carried into their tier it seems this also has been proven

citation:

"http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/210617-gimme-yer-stats-results/"

some of the people submitting their stats by their own admission "i was probably carried"

Edited by Mazzyplz, 01 October 2015 - 05:04 PM.

[El Bandito]

Prosperity Park, on 01 October 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

PSR is a system of accumulated points. It is functionally an XP bar that goes up fastest for good players, and goes up slower for fair players.

This is "common knowledge" that hasn' sunk into many people's heads yet.

Yet many people here think as long as one plays a lot of matches, even without having positive WLR, one can reach the top. Regular XP bar does not shrink when one does bad.

Mazzyplz, on 01 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

; also players can be carried into their tier it seems this also has been proven

Which is very apparent in group queue, unfortunately.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 October 2015 - 04:57 PM.

[EgoSlayer]

Prosperity Park, on 01 October 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

PSR is a system of accumulated points. It is functionally an XP bar that goes up fastest for good players, and goes up slower for fair players.

This is "common knowledge" that hasn' sunk into many people's heads yet.

Too bad "common Knowledge" is something that is so uncommon these days. It only takes some very simple math to figure it out.

From Paul's post:


PSR goes up or down by some value each match, we'll call that X.
Wins have 0, Small, Medium, and Large gains. Medium and Large have to be some multiple of small, so for simplicity we'll say meduim is two smalls, and large is 3 smalls.

That makes wins a possiblity of:
0x, 1x, 2x, 3x as possible options.

Losses are similar, but inverted, so they are negatives for loses.
-3x, -2x, 0x, 1x as possible options.

For simplicity we'll say that an average person gets 80% of their matches in the middle of the range, with 10% each at the top and bottom tiers.

W= (.10 * 0x) + (.40 *1x) + (.40 * 2x) + (.10 * 3x)
(0) + (.4x) + (.8x) + (.3x) + (.4x) = 1.5x
So on average a person gets 1.5x increase on wins.

L= (.10 * -3x) + (.40 * -2x) + (.40 * 0x) + (.1 * 1x)
(-.3x) + (-.8x) + (0x) + (.1x) = -1x
So on average a person gets a -1x decrease on a loss.

So at a 50/50 win loss ratio, the person is on average gaining 1/2 (W of 1.5 - L of -1.0) of whatever the minimum PSR rating increase is, which I believe Paul says is 1 point in his thread.

Higher win loss ratios, and different bell curve distributions on the PSR scores change things a bit, but don't change the underlying math.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 01 October 2015 - 05:28 PM.

[Screech]

I am going to assume that you never played vanilla EQ. It had an experience grind that allowed you to go backwards, just like this system. Just be happy this game doesn't have hell levels.

I think your problem is that you think a grind can only go in one direction.

[XX Sulla XX]

Should try this.

Should say quick changes in solo and small changes from group.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 01 October 2015 - 05:16 PM.

[Triordinant]

Mazzyplz, on 01 October 2015 - 04:52 PM, said:

some of the people submitting their stats by their own admission "i was probably carried"

Only solo drops should count towards PSR, otherwise it won't be accurate.

[Mazzyplz]

Triordinant, on 01 October 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

Only solo drops should count towards PSR, otherwise it won't be accurate.

i thought about this and then i saw this podcast:
THE STRAFING RUN

it would be nice if mwo does the same thing as world of warships and you could choose when you want to play a ranked match and it would throw you into pugs. it would be the same thing as we have now, except no group carries and leveling trash mechs doesn't affect your match if you don't want to rank it.

i ask - why not?

[Mazzyplz]

if MWO had the opted in ranked solo matches from world of warships you would see no negative effects as compared to now, it would mostly be the same except*


this way people can relax in the solo queue; play their mechs without thinking of the grind or feeling like they should only pilot their cheese all the time!!


at the same time; we could make this interesting - and add REARM AND REPAIR to the ranked mode.
with actual penalties - we could call this career mode or something

and i am not proposing you split the playerbase either; you could use the same matches for casual solo and ranked match why not? the probability of running into ranked cheese players on the other team is also the same for both teams

it would just make it so that not EVERYONE is ranking cheese

[Flyby215]

Sorry I can't help you find a T1 with a negative W/L; although I support your search. I hate meta, I hate comp. I wish never to play 228, EMP, SJR, CSJx, among others. I play for fun, I play for passion, I love my Catapult. I am tier1, full bar, playing nearly exclusively the Jester. That's grind vs skill, sadly.

[Madcap72]

El Bandito, on 01 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Just find a T1 player with negative WLR. Anyone? Anyone? Step out now, for science!

After all, one can gain PSR in 4 situations and only lose in 2 situations, right?

Who cares?

[Gnume]

Screech, on 01 October 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

I am going to assume that you never played vanilla EQ. It had an experience grind that allowed you to go backwards, just like this system. Just be happy this game doesn't have hell levels.

I think your problem is that you think a grind can only go in one direction.

Yup, so much this. I remember people having their account get hacked and the evil hacker would steal all their stuff then run them back to die over and over again to de-level their characters ... take them from level 24 down to 12 and so on

Now days, a LOT of games have just made it easy mode ... no penalties for poor play/death...give them all the rewards they want as fast as they want them. Kids these days have it so easy

[Water Bear]

EgoSlayer, on 01 October 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

Too bad "common Knowledge" is something that is so uncommon these days. It only takes some very simple math to figure it out.

From Paul's post:


PSR goes up or down by some value each match, we'll call that X.
Wins have 0, Small, Medium, and Large gains. Medium and Large have to be some multiple of small, so for simplicity we'll say meduim is two smalls, and large is 3 smalls.

That makes wins a possiblity of:
0x, 1x, 2x, 3x as possible options.

Losses are similar, but inverted, so they are negatives for loses.
-3x, -2x, 0x, 1x as possible options.

For simplicity we'll say that an average person gets 80% of their matches in the middle of the range, with 10% each at the top and bottom tiers.

W= (.10 * 0x) + (.40 *1x) + (.40 * 2x) + (.10 * 3x)
(0) + (.4x) + (.8x) + (.3x) + (.4x) = 1.5x
So on average a person gets 1.5x increase on wins.

L= (.10 * -3x) + (.40 * -2x) + (.40 * 0x) + (.1 * 1x)
(-.3x) + (-.8x) + (0x) + (.1x) = -1x
So on average a person gets a -1x decrease on a loss.

So at a 50/50 win loss ratio, the person is on average gaining 1/2 (W of 1.5 - L of -1.0) of whatever the minimum PSR rating increase is, which I believe Paul says is 1 point in his thread.

Higher win loss ratios, and different bell curve distributions on the PSR scores change things a bit, but don't change the underlying math.

I wish you had at least linked my thread where I created that (type of) explanation, but I'm glad people read it and used the information.

<3

Mazzyplz, on 01 October 2015 - 05:35 PM, said:

i thought about this and then i saw this podcast:
THE STRAFING RUN

it would be nice if mwo does the same thing as world of warships and you could choose when you want to play a ranked match and it would throw you into pugs. it would be the same thing as we have now, except no group carries and leveling trash mechs doesn't affect your match if you don't want to rank it.

i ask - why not?

World of Warships seems to have made a conscious effort to avoid a lot of the mistakes that MWO made. I haven't played it but my brother does and he sings its praises regularly.

Edited by Water Bear, 02 October 2015 - 05:40 AM.

[InspectorG]

El Bandito, on 01 October 2015 - 04:37 PM, said:

Just find a T1 player with negative WLR. Anyone? Anyone? Step out now, for science!

After all, one can gain PSR in 4 situations and only lose in 2 situations, right?

Pretty obvious.

But, currently im happy with it.

It might just be luck or perception BUT i am getting better overall matches in my playing windows. Better quality in teammates and opposition.
Some stupid matches, but not as many as before.

[El Bandito]

InspectorG, on 02 October 2015 - 05:47 AM, said:

Pretty obvious.

But, currently im happy with it.

It might just be luck or perception BUT i am getting better overall matches in my playing windows. Better quality in teammates and opposition.
Some stupid matches, but not as many as before.

Matches are indeed much better post PSR. I'm getting my ass handed as soon as I went over T1. Everyone shoots damn accurately.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 October 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[Kira Onime]

Although I'M not sure you'll find one, a T1 player with a negative W/L is technically possible.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

Having a negative W/L is impossible without having a negative number in either the numerator or the denominator. I don't think anyone has negative wins or negative losses. Jussayin, carry on.