53 replies to this topic

[loopala]

here is good vid of great team play with good command and coms



notice the lack of chatter. and the focus.

[Lyoto Machida]

Soldier91, on 04 October 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

That is totally ignoring the fact Lesnar was injured. I stopped watching MMA a few years ago but when I saw some of his fights I was wondering why his stand up striking was so sluggish looking to me. His illness if he went stand up would of left him open to body shots that would hurt a lot more and probably left him way more injured in the long run. That's why I think you'd see him win really fast when it came to ground and pound I'm pretty sure his strategy was get them on the ground and win fast without aggravating his long term injury so he could keep competing. Jeff Monson on the other hand I think hand some stand up matches that went pretty bad for him I remember one it looked like he didn't land anything don't remember seeing him again in the UFC after that match.

Brock's game was always predicated around the bullrush double leg and gorilla ground and pound, even before the injury. Diverticulitis or not, it doesn't change the fact that he reportedly avoided standup sparring in training. He had Pat Barry up there with him during some camps and even Bas said people weren't allowed to really hit him in sparring (at 4:46 in the video):



Brock was obviously a tremendous athlete...anyone who could run a 4.7 40 at 280lbs is gifted athletically. He got into the MMA game late in life and obviously didn't have the experience that lifelong combat sports athletes did (even with his NCAA wrestling career). Part of being a good, well rounded fighter in MMA is minimizing your weaknesses and taking the fight to where you have the advantage. It just doesn't make sense to avoid training standup when fights start on the feet and you are going to be facing guys that are much better than you at striking. There's a reason why high level boxers or Muay Thai fighters don't just come in and dominate in MMA...same thing applies to high level grapplers with no striking skills. This isn't the UFC 1 era anymore and you can't get by on being a specialist.

The whole point I was trying to make is that you can't aspire to do something at a high level and then avoid doing that thing in practice. A lot of fighting is mental/psychological and the same thing applies to this game in a way. Some players panic when they start getting hit by AC2s or LRMs...had they practiced and trained themselves to react properly to those things many times, they wouldn't panic or shy away while under fire. Courage under fire (so to speak) doesn't come out of nowhere...it comes from repetitive training and refinement. There's a reason soldiers are put through boot camp and repeated drilling before they're thrown into the meat grinder.

[MischiefSC]

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. There is no way to stress that enough. Bad practice just makes you habitually bad.

Every single competitive player of, well, anything has some kind of coach/mentor/experienced team peer to help them improve. As an example take pro sports or Olympic athletes. They have coaches. You're not going to get anywhere reinventing the wheel. If you want to get competitive level good at something you need to join a group that performs at that level and put in a metric **** ton of effort to change your behaviors.

Human skill is on a distinct skill. We learn a new skill, improve a bit and then stop. Once you get a little above 'average' you start to run into larger and larger investments of effort and attention to improve. Then you need to make a huge leap in effort to do so consistently enough to make a habit out of it. That's harder than it sounds, changing habits takes about 3 weeks of daily repetition. During that while time you have to be on point the whole time.

You want to improve you're not going to do it with instructional videos. Find some comp tier players to play with, put a lot of effort in and keep with it until you're as good as you want to be.

[Lyoto Machida]

MischiefSC, on 04 October 2015 - 02:50 PM, said:

Practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. There is no way to stress that enough. Bad practice just makes you habitually bad.

Every single competitive player of, well, anything has some kind of coach/mentor/experienced team peer to help them improve. As an example take pro sports or Olympic athletes. They have coaches. You're not going to get anywhere reinventing the wheel. If you want to get competitive level good at something you need to join a group that performs at that level and put in a metric **** ton of effort to change your behaviors.

Human skill is on a distinct skill. We learn a new skill, improve a bit and then stop. Once you get a little above 'average' you start to run into larger and larger investments of effort and attention to improve. Then you need to make a huge leap in effort to do so consistently enough to make a habit out of it. That's harder than it sounds, changing habits takes about 3 weeks of daily repetition. During that while time you have to be on point the whole time.

You want to improve you're not going to do it with instructional videos. Find some comp tier players to play with, put a lot of effort in and keep with it until you're as good as you want to be.

Well, going back to the combat sports analogy...I've been training Muay Thai for about 5 years now and frequent forums where people discuss striking (among other aspects of combat sports). Whenever a beginner puts up videos of them training themselves in their backyard/garage/etc and asks for advice, the usual answer by the veterans is that they should sign up for an actual gym and train under someone who knows what they are doing.

Like you said, it's much easier to learn things correctly from the beginning than to have to unlearn bad habits that you picked up along the way and relearn the proper way to do things. You save yourself time by doing things right from the get go. Unfortunately, many people have egos and don't humble themselves enough to the the point to where they can actually learn things with a beginner's mind.

The "reinventing the wheel" thing is a great example. You can get to a proficient level in something much faster if you use tried and true techniques that have been proven under fire, versus trying to write the book yourself. It's kind of how most of our knowledge as a collective whole (humanity) has been established.

Flaming oblivion, on 03 October 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

The best way to gain experience is solo queue where there is no one to help you in most cases.

Group queue you tend to either face a 12 man which you die so fast you learn nothing.

Or your in the 12 man fighting a far inferior team , Again not learning much a fight holding a sub machine gun against a guy with a water pistol doesn't teach you much or demonstrate much skill.

If you all learn in the solo queue where you have to play well to make a contribution to your win , You will be much stronger when your ready for group and have allies you can rely on.

Of course it wont always help you because the MM has a harder time balancing teams in group queue and you can bet heavy most of the 12 mans are gaming the system fulling their groups with T1 players making it even harder that it is already to create a balanced game. Not only do they have all the advantages of a 12 man they also have the more experienced team.

Nothing will get past the larger groups seal clubbing that's in game yet.

TLDR train in solo queue best advice I have . Teaches you a lot of individual skills that translate well to team play.

I'm not so sure this is the case...you can learn a lot of bad habits in the solo queue and without experienced players around, you won't even know that you are making these mistakes. You have to train in the situation you plan to be in to maximize your chances of winning in that specific environment.

Sure, you can learn good driving skills doing solo SCCA events on the track but this isn't exactly going to transfer over completely to a NASCAR race where you sometimes have to rely on other people to get ahead. It doesn't matter if you're the best boxer in the world when you get taken down and bludgeoned to a bloody pulp with elbows on the ground. Bottom line is that tactics in solo queue differ than what you might find against people who are organized in group queue in the same way that there are things you may be able to pull off against untrained people in the street (solo queue) versus facing a trained opponent in a ring/cage who knows what he or she is doing (group queue). You have to be able to adapt to your current situation and not everything you learned in the past will completely carry over.

Horses for courses, as they say...

[5th Fedcom Rat]

The bottom line is the top teams cherry pick the best players to begin with. This becomes a massive force multiplier - the more effective your wingmate is, the less you have to worry about them and the more they lay down effective fire, the more you are freed up to concentrate solely on placing your shots. If you know your team isn't running off chasing people or moving to bad locations, you don't need to spend so much time looking at your radar just trying to make sure you're still part of the death ball. The best players have the skill to fight and take out 2+ enemy mechs at the same time. When you stack players like this all on one team, to them it feels like they are only fighting perhaps 6 mechs. It becomes a cakewalk, a contest to see who get rack up the kills the fastest. And again, aggression, aggression, aggression is key. Also strikes/coolshots. You need to have millions of spare cbills to play this game competitively.

.

Edited by 5th Fedcom Rat, 04 October 2015 - 03:23 PM.

[TercieI]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 04 October 2015 - 03:23 PM, said:

Also strikes/coolshots. You need to have millions of spare cbills to play this game competitively.

Not really. A couple of the best players I know are nearly F2P. Consumables really only are essential in comp matches. With a good team, they're only nice to have in public matches.

Edited by Terciel1976, 04 October 2015 - 03:29 PM.

[5th Fedcom Rat]

Terciel1976, on 04 October 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

Consumables really only are essential in comp matches.

That's... exactly what I said.

[TercieI]

5th Fedcom Rat, on 04 October 2015 - 03:29 PM, said:

That's... exactly what I said.

Then I misunderstood, sorry. "Millions of spare CB" seems like a stretch when you can only spend 80k a drop and a comp match is rarely more than 5 drops. 400k now and again isn't "millions of spare" by my reckoning. Sorry if I misunderstood.

[Ultimax]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 October 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

I'm not so sure this is the case...you can learn a lot of bad habits in the solo queue and without experienced players around, you won't even know that you are making these mistakes. You have to train in the situation you plan to be in to maximize your chances of winning in that specific environment.

Definitely good advice, you can really pick up a slew of awful habits that are hard to break in the solo queue.

You can also get a warped view of how good your builds are because you "do OK in them".



Sadly, I think it's lost on deaf ears with some posters.


Some are here for rational discussion, others are simply ruled by preconceived notions and bias.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 October 2015 - 08:26 PM.

[Soldier91]

Lyoto Machida, on 04 October 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

Brock's game was always predicated around the bullrush double leg and gorilla ground and pound, even before the injury. Diverticulitis or not, it doesn't change the fact that he reportedly avoided standup sparring in training. He had Pat Barry up there with him during some camps and even Bas said people weren't allowed to really hit him in sparring (at 4:46 in the video):



Brock was obviously a tremendous athlete...anyone who could run a 4.7 40 at 280lbs is gifted athletically. He got into the MMA game late in life and obviously didn't have the experience that lifelong combat sports athletes did (even with his NCAA wrestling career). Part of being a good, well rounded fighter in MMA is minimizing your weaknesses and taking the fight to where you have the advantage. It just doesn't make sense to avoid training standup when fights start on the feet and you are going to be facing guys that are much better than you at striking. There's a reason why high level boxers or Muay Thai fighters don't just come in and dominate in MMA...same thing applies to high level grapplers with no striking skills. This isn't the UFC 1 era anymore and you can't get by on being a specialist.

The whole point I was trying to make is that you can't aspire to do something at a high level and then avoid doing that thing in practice. A lot of fighting is mental/psychological and the same thing applies to this game in a way. Some players panic when they start getting hit by AC2s or LRMs...had they practiced and trained themselves to react properly to those things many times, they wouldn't panic or shy away while under fire. Courage under fire (so to speak) doesn't come out of nowhere...it comes from repetitive training and refinement. There's a reason soldiers are put through boot camp and repeated drilling before they're thrown into the meat grinder.

I really understand where you're coming from and the point your getting at but Brock Lesnar is the wrong example of that. He won the heavyweight championship multiple times that makes him the standard. All others want to be that the champ everyone competing is gunning for that. Heck it's even more impressive learning he did it refusing training and just opting to tackle people and pound the snot out of them even though it's the total opposite of what you're saying. He had a strategy and made it work I think I like the guy even more now I just find it pretty funny. That's sort of why I mentioned Jeff Monson also had a wrestling background and was really awesome in fights that went to the ground but stand up was not his strong point.

[pwnface]

Flaming oblivion, on 04 October 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

I disagree you make a mistake in solo it will likely quickly follow into a roll as the solos tend to follow like lemmings or it becomes 11v12.

Mistakes are costly in solo you have to learn not to make them and build your own skills.

Grouping with 4-12 man groups of tier 1 players and watching them steam roll players of tier 3-4 all night just teaches you how to win a game that was over before a shot was fired.

This is so wrong. How can you improve if you don't know the correct mechs, tactics, mechanics to employ to win consistently? If you play with higher level players they can give you advice on builds and point out where you are making mistakes. Don't keep throwing yourself against a wall in futility.

I'm not saying to avoid solo queue, but trying to master a team based game without actually playing with other players is incredibly foolish. You need to spend time playing with a competent group if you want to get better.

[AlphaToaster]

Trust comes from playing together.

Respect comes from all learning from the same mistakes together and understanding everyone is there to support each other.

Without either of those, there's no real team, it's just a bunch of guys out for their own high score.

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 05 October 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

This is so wrong. How can you improve if you don't know the correct mechs, tactics, mechanics to employ to win consistently? If you play with higher level players they can give you advice on builds and point out where you are making mistakes. Don't keep throwing yourself against a wall in futility.

I'm not saying to avoid solo queue, but trying to master a team based game without actually playing with other players is incredibly foolish. You need to spend time playing with a competent group if you want to get better.

While there are some differences in process for how a skill is performed (motor, reflex, memory, analytical, etc) learning and improving any skill is pretty much the same
Mwo, juggling, cooking, sports, a job, punching dinos and farming silicon pearls. You learn the basics and improve a bit based on perception. Getting much beyond that really requires help and other people. There is absolutely no better way to improve than interaction with people who are already good at a skill.

Pugging teaches bad habits. Playing competitively with good players teaches good habits. Rolling the other team isn't a "bad habit". It is a result of practicing good habits.

[Kh0rn]

[color=#BBBBBB]https://youtu.be/t1GPMO1Bp6k?t=68[/color]