162 replies to this topic

[TexAce]

Scout Derek, on 06 October 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Example of what Paigan is talking about:

This is sooo good. Who made this?

[Navid A1]

I wonder if anyone have ever tested this map before release... i can't even count the places you can get stuck!
practically, every pebble is a no go.
Because the general topology of the map has not changed much, nascaring is basically the most obvious choice in pug play, with the added magic pebbles that can halt 80 ton mechs... you better have something with JJs and 70kph+... otherwise god help you.

So much fail in this redesigned map.

[bad arcade kitty]

TexAce, on 08 October 2015 - 03:11 AM, said:

This is sooo good. Who made this?

it's from

[Soultraxx]

Appogee, on 07 October 2015 - 01:25 AM, said:

Me: "There's a dual Gauss King Crab at e4."

(Team ignores the advice and keeps peeking, letting Dual Gauss Crab lop off their components.)

Me: "Stop peeking d4, there's a dual Gauss Crab at e4."

(2 team mates die peeking in front of the dual Gauss King Crab.)

Me: "I am going to go kill the dual Gauss Crab at e4 which is killing everyone. Please support."


(Noone comes with me, I leg the King Crab, and get half it's other leg off before I am killed.)

Me: "There is a legged dual Gauss Crab at e4 - please finish it off."

(4 more team mates die as they continue to NASCAR around the caldera, periodically wandering across the field of view of the legged dual Gauss Crab at e4.)

Me: "The legged dual Gauss Crab at e4 is STILL killing you all - FINISH IT OFF!"

(The legged dual Gauss Crab at e4 kills remaining the team members, having not received any further damage since the moment I died trying to kill it.)

I examine the end of match score, noting that my PSR went down as I tried desperately to help the team stop dying to the single biggest and most obvious threat on the battlefield. Then I log out of MechDerpersOnline to play something else.

I think I may have been in that match. Our KGC got left behind at the start and was isolated. I went back in my Crab to chase off a Cicada that was harassing him. Mr KGC got legged and I saw the Gauss shot that took you out. I then got isolated and pounced on and gibbed by a couple of lights whilst mr KGC rejoined the group.

I saw your comment in ALL chat at the end about having not taken him out. If your team had pushed on him straight away he wouldve died very quickly as he was out there on his own as the rest of the team were a long way off.

[madhermit]

Map is great. People are just really bad at this game and stuck to the old tacitcs (clump up, failball and nascar).

[Paigan]

Navid A1, on 08 October 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

I wonder if anyone have ever tested this map before release... i can't even count the places you can get stuck!
practically, every pebble is a no go.
Because the general topology of the map has not changed much, nascaring is basically the most obvious choice in pug play, with the added magic pebbles that can halt 80 ton mechs... you better have something with JJs and 70kph+... otherwise god help you.

So much fail in this redesigned map.

Understandable reaction, but if I may say that, being a developer myself (not PGI, of course):

Developers do endless tests, find dozens or hundreds of problems and fix them. But of course never all of them (no one does). And of course there is always limited (i.e. too little) time.
So from say 100 problems, 5 make it intro production and users/customers are always like "OMG there are 5 problems in the software. Don't they test stuff before releasing it?"

[bad arcade kitty]

the map is too cluttered now/ but not that bad
i would prefer the old one anyway

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 08 October 2015 - 04:04 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

L3mming2, on 07 October 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

to use your analogy its not the difference in weight between the scateboarder and truk its the diference in weel diameter...
and as mech have legs not weels there terain mobylity should be determined only by there power to weight ratio ...

I gave it some more thought, and sure, the wheels may not be the right analogy, but I still disagree.

Take a sprinter versus a power climber going up a steep incline as an analogy then.

[Shae Starfyre]

FupDup, on 07 October 2015 - 08:09 AM, said:

The purpose of lights/mediums climbing better is because the entire purpose of mediums and lights is to be more mobile than heavies and assaults. It's the same reason why their ground speed also tends to be higher. They have to give up both armor and firepower to achieve their mobility. If you want more mobility, you should also have to give up your armor and firepower.

I agree, per your statement, ground speed. On open ground, sure, that makes sense. And you argument is balance, while I am focused on more an engine to mass ratio, but also, mass against other mass in the terrain.

Per another analogy is a flat ground sprinter who only trained on flat running tracks versus a power climber who focuses on strength and endurance against a steep incline (not some 100 yard dasher); I feel I do not even need to explain this.

Take a Ferrari on an off-road course.

I do agree that same engine versus mass is a factor, but there is a broken metrics in a blanket movement arch-type as it pertains to terrain and obstacles when a 100 ton Mech against the same terrain types is stopped or reduced to a crawl, and the legs of a light Mech traveling at near 3 times the speed skips along without care against that same obstruction - it should break it's legs or fall flat (of course, this is a Call-of-Mech Online game, and that wouldn't be right).

The 100 ton Mech (if a proper movement arch-type scale is created) would smash through some obstructions, pebbles, twigs, etc., and some hills would be just a power push up the slop at near same speeds as ground speeds; that 100 tons is not going to slow much; that mass will continue it forward and up with continued engine drive with a reduced drag that would slow it gradually, and only peak out once it reached a critical event where it could go no further. In hind-sight, depending on the terrain, it would dig itself in; but on the same token and spirit of Call-of-Mech Online, this, too, wouldn't be fair, as to say, having light Mechs just fall face first encountering that same pebble or hill traveling 150 kph.

The lighter Mech, while the same principles applies, with less mass, depending on the engine, be brought to a slower speed for safety of the design. Not a complete halt like Assaults do now, but more significant than what we see today (unless Jump Jets are involved).

Edited by Aphoticus, 08 October 2015 - 04:28 AM.

[Signal27]

Aphoticus, on 07 October 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

I think they got the movement scale (Arch-types) backwards; small Mechs should be the ones that have difficulty with small roots, hills, and pebbles, because of their size and speed.

Think of a skateboarder going down a hill, fast, and a pebble gets stuck on a wheel; now imagine a slow moving truck going down the hill, pebble is ignored.

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, NO! No.


I'll echo the sentiments of the above posters who have already mentioned that Assaults are slow and clumsy to balance their armor and firepower against the speed and maneuverability of the lighter classes. That's just the way game design is.

But more than once I've heard various posters say the same thing the guy I quoted did: That since a heavier mech weighs more, it should be able to negotiate terrain more easily. That just doesn't sound right. I know you guys think your 100-ton death machine should have the WEIGHT to just smash through any obstacle in their way, but that's not quite the way something walking around on legs works. If you've ever seen a fat guy walking around you should have already figured this out.

Your Assault mech IS NOT this:


Your Assault mech is more like THIS:


Here is an example of a light mech getting through moderately rough terrain:


Here are examples of an Assault getting over moderately rough terrain:

Edited by Signal27, 08 October 2015 - 04:29 AM.

[PyckenZot]

Loving the new map. It's a truly amazing visual experience. Surpassed only by Vitric Forge.
It is however truly difficult navigating the caldera sides

[Paigan]

Signal27, on 08 October 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

[...]
But more than once I've heard various posters say the same thing the guy I quoted did: That since a heavier mech weighs more, it should be able to negotiate terrain more easily. That just doesn't sound right. I know you guys think your 100-ton death machine should have the WEIGHT to just smash through any obstacle in their way, but that's not quite the way something walking around on legs works. If you've ever seen a fat guy walking around you should have already figured this out.
[...]

You mix up different things and draw wrong conclusions from that.

Of course assaults are / should be
- slower
- turn slower
- have problems climbing, circumventing large rocks, etc.
("fatness" problem)

BUT (regarding the "smashing")
If there's for example a ~50 cm WEED root on the ground and 100 ton of mass come down on it (ESPECIALLY since there are legs concentrating all the weight on one foot), the the root DEFINITELY has to crumble.

All your (no doubt) funny pictures refer to different situations (navigating around obstacles), yet you use them as arguments for that kind of terrain situation (smashing through obstacles).

Think of a picture with a little boy trying to run through scrub: he would take minutes or maybe even get stuck.
Then think of an elephant going through the same stuff: He just waltzes through, hardly noticing the scrub.


So again:
slower, more inert, even clumsy: yes
but say "light" obstacles (e.g. viridian bog roots): smashable, no problem

Edited by Paigan, 08 October 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

Quote:

No. No, no, no, no, no, no, NO! No.


I'll echo the sentiments of the above posters who have already mentioned that Assaults are slow and clumsy to balance their armor and firepower against the speed and maneuverability of the lighter classes. That's just the way game design is.

But more than once I've heard various posters say the same thing the guy I quoted did: That since a heavier mech weighs more, it should be able to negotiate terrain more easily. That just doesn't sound right. I know you guys think your 100-ton death machine should have the WEIGHT to just smash through any obstacle in their way, but that's not quite the way something walking around on legs works. If you've ever seen a fat guy walking around you should have already figured this out.

Your Assault mech IS NOT this:


Your Assault mech is more like THIS:


Here is an example of a light mech getting through moderately rough terrain:


Here are examples of an Assault getting over moderately rough terrain:

End Quote:

I see your point, but in retrospect, these are all examples of small mass objects; put 35 tons on that kid jumping through those rings, taking care to be precise while the 100 ton blob just walks through it.

The difference between the skeletal structure of the human body lacking the muscles, and such, to support what looks like 500 pounds, is not the same; good analogy, but just as off, as mine may be off too; but we are talking about some mass that puts all this in a different perspective.

I even question 35 ton bipedal objects even being able to do what they do; the point is, the game is too fast. And some lights have the ability to produce awesome damage equivalent to some assaults.

And, to note, this is not so much about agility, as it is about obstructions and hills (Assaults are already slow); I do not see what the argument against reversed arch-types would really do against what would be a decrease to lights that is still faster than assaults, and they would suffer from those obstructions that assaults should be ignoring.

We are not talking about twist speeds, or the likes.

Edited by Aphoticus, 08 October 2015 - 04:44 AM.

[Bracchus]

I rather like the new design, haven't had any problem with getting stuck, but even my assaults tend to go about 60km/h so it might be that I got enough speed/momentum to go over all the small stuff that people get stuck on. Also haven't had any problem with the vision or fog. I did like the old one, had some great battles on it, when the teams didn't nascar, but this is even better.

[BattleBunny]

A lot of the new cover makes for different firing lanes and most of my old favorite peeking corners or moving lanes are gone.
It feels a lot like a new map.

So please.

PLEASE!

Put both old caustic and new caustic in rotation. We had forest colony snow and forest colony, we have frozen city night and frozen city day. Can we please get a caustic valley old and caustic valley new?

And while we are doing this, Put the old forest colony back in rotation as well, on a low frequency. I miss the old maps! we need more maps! Variety is the spice of life!

[Lugh]

Tennex, on 06 October 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

• It looks bad. It looks too much like Sulferous rifts now. Taking away the map pool diversity
  
• Fog is everywhere, visibility is piss poor for no reason. It was never a long range map to begin with, i have to use night vision just to shoot mechs 500m away
  
• Doesn't get rid of ridge humping, just makes it much more tedious

Maybe the sollution to get rid of ridge humping isn't to add bigger ridges. its to GET RID OF RIDGES. I hope they at least take away that concept from this map adjustment

Standing in the open in a firing line is even more boring and tedious than ridge humping. But you could do that too. Set your firing line. Shoot anything that comes over the ridge. Profit.

No PUGs ever want to do something so simple.

[BLOOD WOLF]

PyckenZot, on 08 October 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

Loving the new map. It's a truly amazing visual experience. Surpassed only by Vitric Forge.
It is however truly difficult navigating the caldera sides

so according to the comments I don't know whether the map is the best map or the worst map. I like it better than the bog

[mark v92]

Just gonna drop this here

[PyckenZot]

PyckenZot, on 08 October 2015 - 04:29 AM, said:

Loving the new map. It's a truly amazing visual experience. Surpassed only by Vitric Forge.
It is however truly difficult navigating the caldera sides

BLOOD WOLF, on 08 October 2015 - 04:58 AM, said:

so according to the comments I don't know whether the map is the best map or the worst map. I like it better than the bog

Not sure how to interpret you quoting me,... but ok. I like the new map and agree with the fact that maneuvering around the caldera can be hard. Which in no way makes it a bad map. It requires more piloting skill to be effective in that area. As such it becomes a challenge and a new source of whine on these forums.
Same goes for the whining concerning the continued nascar behaviour. This happens as well on other maps. The largest part of the MWO population is part of the "cowardly-keep-my-K/D-ratio-high"-club. Live with it,...

The only thing that currently annoys me on any of the current maps is people still be able to consistently single pannel hit me whilst having no visual on me at all (especially interesting feat on the new FC map). Guess there is still some work in that department.
tl:dr
Great map, awesome visuals, skill required.

[ColourfulConfetti]

Viridian Bog is probably the most infuriating when it comes to small objects that impede your movement, Caustic is a little less worse, but still pretty bad. At least there isn't any invisible geometry. I swear that's the only issue I have with Tourmaline, otherwise it's probably the best designed map in the game. That and Canyon Network.

Edited by PalmaRoma, 08 October 2015 - 07:19 AM.