55 replies to this topic

[Tincan Nightmare]

The Charger in MWO wouldn't really be that bad. Considering it's an IS mech, everyone is going to throw endo on it and either drop down to a lower size engine or go XL to free up tonnage for more weapons. The 3050 3K version used an XL and FF armor to carry 4 medium pulse lasers and an ALRM20, so there would even be a variant with some missile hardpoints. Depending on the model and hit boxes, it could be a 'good' mech (though you would need to up armor it, as it only came with 10 tons of armor stock, pretty low for an assault). From the artworks, the torso weapons should actually have pretty high mounts also.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Eylradjaw, on 07 October 2015 - 06:14 AM, said:

Its a ''Charger''. On TT it had speed of 5-8 if I remember well. Rules for charging were something like ''Speed X tonnage = a bunch of damages'' So yeah it was only meant to crush people with his mass. Since there are no real colision damages in MWO it wouldnt of much use..

Hexes moved X tonnage/10. So the charger moving 8 hexes does 64 damage. Thing is for that kind of role the dragon is just plain better since it actually has long range weapons to harass while it moves into position for and 8 hex charge or kill enemy light mechs.

Later on the grand dragon with MASC... 12 hex charge at 60 tons is 72 damage... yeah that thing is a charging monster. Granted it has an IS XL but ERPPC, LRMS, DHS... it's not a bad mech IMO.

[Ted Wayz]

The Charger is one of my ATF. Don't hate.

[Madcap72]

zagibu, on 07 October 2015 - 04:54 PM, said:

That's a really bad comparison. Bullets only bounce off cars at extreme angles, which is something that is not even taken into account here. People are talking about perfect impacts. And no, structural deformation calculations are not "basic physics". In reality, a lot of different factors matter, so you are both wrong actually, and it can't be determined whether melee impacts would be damaging or not, because we don't have the necessary material properties to make the simulations.

I said some not all specifically for that reason, I said basic physics because we're mostly all lay people arguing on the internet trying to sound the coolest. You say we can't know if it's determined whether melee impacts would be damaging or not, yet that's not true at all. There is plenty of lore to go off of to decide situation in which damage occurs and then work that into the models until it works as desired.

Or do you REALLY think, based off of the lore, and damage described, that something like a 80 ton mech going 84 KPH smashing into something like a 50-55 ton mech won't do any damage?

[Matthew Ace]

If PGI decided to give us a Charger, they would be smart enough to give the Charger 3K (XL400 with LRM20 and some lasers) as the standard variant instead of the 1A1.

(Before you say "B-but the spider", the 5V is fun to pilot and still useful; it just lacks hardpoints and customisability. In stock games, I would much rather take the 5V than the other Spiders.)

Edited by Matthew Ace, 08 October 2015 - 02:07 AM.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mazzyplz, on 07 October 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

adam steiner then switches to an awesome;

but that debunks every hope for a decent axeman cause the awesome is so bad you can tell pgi doesn't care;
adam who?

Yea he did go to an Awesome, have to sell more toys . Had the show lasted more than one season, he would have piloted many different mechs after the Awesome so more toys could be sold.

The Axman Adam Steiner Hero would never be good really, especially when Adam pilots the version that gives up the A/C20 for an LRM launcher. Plus for the timeline PGI would have to make a new model as well (only 2 exist before 3052).

Still, I'd like the Axman regardless.

[Rushin Roulette]

Well, we alreaady have the Battlemaster... how about its smaller and slightly more rural cousin?
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/CattleMaster

[MeiSooHaityu]

Lol, there is a...Cattle Master? Oh jeeze.

We need a Master Pack Then. We can have the Battle Master, Cattle Master, Saddle Master, Rattle Master, Tattle Master (he always gives your team's position away to the enemy), Paddle Master, etc...

Battletech, you are pretty hokey sometimes. You stay cheesy!

[caseysrevenge]

When i look at the CGR-1X1 the thing would be in par with the road PGI is taking with there information warfare.
So the idea is not half that bad

Edited by ceesje, 08 October 2015 - 08:38 AM.

[Grimm Peaper]

Tank and naval ramming is actually historical.

http://sovietoutpost...t-tank-ramming/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramming

For naval ramming, greek boats were designed for ramming, it was their main weapon. But even in just World War 2, battleships had armored "torpedo belts" that would let them survive a hit from a torpedo, but a ram from another ship would most definitely sink them. If you think you need to be fast to wreck a 500+ ton vehicle, look up how many boats were sunk running into a glacier.

As for tanks:
https://en.wikipedia...ration_Goodwood

"[color=#252525] An isolated Tiger II (King Tiger) attempting to manoeuvre out of danger, was caught by an Irish Guards Sherman tank that had also become detached from its unit. The Sherman crew fired into the Tiger and then rammed it; anti-tank fire from other British units then penetrated the Tiger's armour. Both crews abandoned their vehicles and most of the German crew was captured."[/color]

[Darlith]

Grimm Peaper, on 08 October 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Tank and naval ramming is actually historical.

http://sovietoutpost...t-tank-ramming/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramming

For naval ramming, greek boats were designed for ramming, it was their main weapon. But even in just World War 2, battleships had armored "torpedo belts" that would let them survive a hit from a torpedo, but a ram from another ship would most definitely sink them. If you think you need to be fast to wreck a 500+ ton vehicle, look up how many boats were sunk running into a glacier.

As for tanks:
https://en.wikipedia...ration_Goodwood

"[color=#252525] An isolated Tiger II (King Tiger) attempting to manoeuvre out of danger, was caught by an Irish Guards Sherman tank that had also become detached from its unit. The Sherman crew fired into the Tiger and then rammed it; anti-tank fire from other British units then penetrated the Tiger's armour. Both crews abandoned their vehicles and most of the German crew was captured."[/color]

Yes but in general ramming isn't the first choice for tank on tank combat. With the charger that is the primary weapon, mind you because of silly game rules where it seems all the kinetic energy must transfer to the enemy leaving you untouched when your 80ton 80kph mech stops suddenly. Whereas a 60ton tank traveling at 50kph stopping suddenly is going to sustain a good bit of damage.

As to the ships, well see speed is usually the more important factor, but when your object is measured in thousands or tens of thousands of tons, the kinetic energy is going to be ******* impressive no matter the speed. An example using the simple KE equations from earlier, an Iowa class battleship at full speed would have the massive KE of 6,593,888,908J. That hitting you will do massive amounts of damage to what it hits, and likely to the ramming object too. Though of course the surface areas of the ramming objects does make a large difference in how the individual ships respond to the energy. Edit - for a reference point the KE of the AP shells the Iowa's guns would fire should be 355,644,450J

Edited by Darlith, 08 October 2015 - 11:52 AM.

[stjobe]

Darlith, on 08 October 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

Yes but in general ramming isn't the first choice for tank on tank combat. With the charger that is the primary weapon

No, it's a scout 'mech. It's "primary weapon" is the 5 small lasers; according to lore, it's intentionally under-armed to not distract from its main mission of intelligence gathering.

Incidentally, it's also pegged as "an example of abject failure in BattleMech design", since a 20-ton 'mech can do its job just as well - if not better - at a fraction of the cost.

Darlith, on 08 October 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

mind you because of silly game rules where it seems all the kinetic energy must transfer to the enemy leaving you untouched when your 80ton 80kph mech stops suddenly. Whereas a 60ton tank traveling at 50kph stopping suddenly is going to sustain a good bit of damage.

The "silly game rules" have the charging unit take the target's tonnage / 10 in damage, so you're wrong about the charge "leaving you untouched".

It's also an automatic pilot skill roll (+2) both for the charger and the charged unit (which may also be subject to a further pilot skill roll if it takes more than 20 damage from the charge), which increases the likelihood of the attacker taking damage from the attack.

Generally speaking, physical attacks other than punching and kicking is a second-to-last resort (alpha strikes being the last resort of the truly desperate, as they often meant overheating and shutting down, leaving you wide open for targeted shots) when you've done goofed and really need a way out; precisely because they inflict damage to yourself as well as to the target.

A MechWarrior would not do a charge or a DFA unless he had no other choice; intentionally inflicting damage on your own 'mech is not a sustainable strategy. It is infinitely preferable to just shoot the target.

[Armored Yokai]

Give the Charger speed quirks
like 125 kph and the torso turn and movement are the speed of a light

[Darlith]

stjobe, on 08 October 2015 - 12:17 PM, said:

No, it's a scout 'mech. It's "primary weapon" is the 5 small lasers; according to lore, it's intentionally under-armed to not distract from its main mission of intelligence gathering.

Incidentally, it's also pegged as "an example of abject failure in BattleMech design", since a 20-ton 'mech can do its job just as well - if not better - at a fraction of the cost.


The "silly game rules" have the charging unit take the target's tonnage / 10 in damage, so you're wrong about the charge "leaving you untouched".

It's also an automatic pilot skill roll (+2) both for the charger and the charged unit (which may also be subject to a further pilot skill roll if it takes more than 20 damage from the charge), which increases the likelihood of the attacker taking damage from the attack.

Generally speaking, physical attacks other than punching and kicking is a second-to-last resort (alpha strikes being the last resort of the truly desperate, as they often meant overheating and shutting down, leaving you wide open for targeted shots) when you've done goofed and really need a way out; precisely because they inflict damage to yourself as well as to the target.

A MechWarrior would not do a charge or a DFA unless he had no other choice; intentionally inflicting damage on your own 'mech is not a sustainable strategy. It is infinitely preferable to just shoot the target.

You are right, I forgot about the damage. It has been a very long time since I played the game, though I still find the damage rules at times odd for it. Mostly because some part of my mind insist the damage shouldn't be less for the charger than it is for the chargee, as wrong as that probably is. Only reason I think of the charger's charge being its primary weapon was that was pretty much ALL the people that used them ever talked about.

Edited by Darlith, 08 October 2015 - 12:39 PM.

[stjobe]

Darlith, on 08 October 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

You are right, I forgot about the damage. It has been a very long time since I played the game, though I still find the damage rules at times odd for it. Mostly because some part of my mind insist the damage shouldn't be less for the charger than it is for the chargee, as wrong as that probably is.

Think tackling in sports that allow them; which hurts most, getting tackled (possibly unaware) or tackling?

As a side note, you should pick the game up again; it's rather enjoyable even if it is a hassle to find the time for it, and the rules actually keep getting better and better with most revisions.

Darlith, on 08 October 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

Only reason I think of the charger's charge being its primary weapon was that was pretty much ALL the people that used them ever talked about.

Well that, and its friggin' name is Charger.

It can't really kill anything with its 5 small lasers, but a 64-point charge is way more damage than most 'mechs can put out in one turn (not that you'd get very many chances of an 8-hex charge, but still. Even a 32-point 4-hex charge hurts about as much as a dual Gauss shot).

Also, as others have said, there were some really combat-viable variants later in the timeline; the 1A5 variant only goes 64 kph but mounts an AC/20, dual SRM-6s, and a ML, while packing 5 tons more armour. Pretty hefty as a brawler, that one.

[Darlith]

stjobe, on 08 October 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Think tackling in sports that allow them; which hurts most, getting tackled (possibly unaware) or tackling?

As a side note, you should pick the game up again; it's rather enjoyable even if it is a hassle to find the time for it, and the rules actually keep getting better and better with most revisions.


Well that, and its friggin' name is Charger.

It can't really kill anything with its 5 small lasers, but a 64-point charge is way more damage than most 'mechs can put out in one turn (not that you'd get very many chances of an 8-hex charge, but still. Even a 32-point 4-hex charge hurts about as much as a dual Gauss shot).

Also, as others have said, there were some really combat-viable variants later in the timeline; the 1A5 variant only goes 64 kph but mounts an AC/20, dual SRM-6s, and a ML, while packing 5 tons more armour. Pretty hefty as a brawler, that one.

I should pick it up again, along with half the other pen and paper games I miss playing. Need to hunt around for a group that actually plays them in my area regularly.