50 replies to this topic

[xe N on]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b84907e989f9169

Above is the best meta config you can play with a summoner. However Hellbringer, Ebon Jaguar and Timberwolf, heck even the Stormcrow do it better.

Why would anyone compare one of the most overquirked IS chassis with one of the most cumbersome clan mechs?

Compare Thunderbolt to Ebon Jaguar or Hellbringer would make much more sense.

Edited by xe N on, 10 October 2015 - 04:50 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

My money is on the Summoner. While everyone says the Thud wins it is only at close range for the 5SS and the medium pulses. Anything else it is a range game and that is where the Summoner wins. Also the Summoner wins because jump jets on all of them, 5 more tons, and more difference in builds (example the Thud usually is only good with lasers, where as Sum has missile builds, ballistic builds, and other builds).

My usual build for a summoner is 2 ERPPCs and 2 SRM 4s this way I poke around corners at range but if they get close I have a close range weapon system that will not over heat me. While my Thunderbolts are basically wubs or solid laser which require holding on target medium to close range and nothing else.

My Stats:
Mech' Matches Played Wins Losses Ratio Kills Deaths Ratio Damage Done XP Earned Time Played

The Thunderbolts
Archived
THUNDERBOLT TDR-5S 68 39 29 1.34 55 42 1.31 17,305 51,353 06:08:41
THUNDERBOLT TDR-5SS 65 33 32 1.03 50 45 1.11 15,216 46,813 05:48:47
THUNDERBOLT TDR-9SE 60 30 28 1.07 46 37 1.24 14,830 43,925 06:09:27

Current
THUNDERBOLT TDR-5S 29 18 11 1.64 29 22 1.32 9,931 48,211 02:56:33
THUNDERBOLT TDR-5SS 10 5 5 1.00 8 8 1.00 3,242 12,129 00:55:17
THUNDERBOLT TDR-9SE 11 9 2 4.50 10 5 2.00 2,983 15,074 01:11:35
THUNDERBOLT TDR-9S 29 13 16 0.81 29 36 0.81 8,884 49,599 02:52:55

The Summoners

Current
SUMMONER SMN-PRIME(I) 58 32 24 1.33 60 36 1.67 20,934 73,864 05:48:46
SUMMONER SMN-PRIME 58 32 24 1.33 60 36 1.67 20,934 73,864 05:48:46
SUMMONER SMN-B 18 7 11 0.64 10 15 0.67 4,899 16,492 01:36:38
SUMMONER SMN-D 24 14 9 1.56 20 14 1.43 8,400 34,953 02:17:13

These are my stats (not including CW) and these stats show I was a better pilot in the Summoner Prime by K/D and damage per match. So again I pick the Summoner if I get a choice of the two which one I would pick to fight against.

Edited by clownwarlord, 10 October 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[mogs01gt]

bad arcade kitty, on 08 October 2015 - 09:02 PM, said:

well, summoner isn't that bad as people picture it, it's hardly news

No its worse. As someone with around 400 matches in a Summoner, its a horrible mech. The only reason to have it or play it is because its a Summoner.

Dont forget, the distance from the cockpit to where the weapons actually firefrom is the most in the game. You spend most of the time shooting at the dirt.

[T0rmented]

I cannot believe this thread is still going, its been answered pages back.
Summoner sucks compared to Thunderbolt


edit: dbl post

Edited by T0rmented, 10 October 2015 - 06:01 AM.

[Duke ramulots]

T0rmented, on 10 October 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

I cannot believe this thread is still going, its been answered pages back.
Summoner sucks compared to Thunderbolt


edit: dbl post

Maybe it's because a lot of us don't think the issue is settled. I'll take a summoner any day over a Thunderbolt.

[latinisator]

In most scenarios the Thunderbolt has my money, like close encounters. From afar, the Summoner can win - depending on whether he can leg the TDR or dismantle a torso.

Apart from that I would choose the Summoner all the time over a TBolt, since I am a trueborn child of Kerensky. All hail to the mighty Jade Falcon Clan!

+ His jump jets can kill a Dire Wolf, just ask Natasha Kerensky.^^

[Spare Parts Bin]

Look I am no silver spoon in the mouth trust fund baby but I had to sell all my Summoners. At my Tier I do not have the luxury of using Omnis that need Planets and Stars to align to function properly. Warhawks,Ebon Jaguars, Stormcrows work better for me.

The only ways I want to tangle with Thuds(meaning plural)is on Boreal Vault when I am at Gauss/ER PPC range or when up close in an Adder with Pulse Lasers.

[Cementi]

*Disclaimer when I refer to hitboxes I am refering to the size not how well hitreg works on them this has confused people in the past. Hitreg is to me a separate issue that has nothing to do with mech balance.

This topic seems to miss the great equalizer that always get missed when doing these comparisons. Due to geometry the size of the hit boxes on all Clan mechs. Even the best ones. I personally prefer my IS mechs over Clan mechs and I am not intimidated by any clan chassis though I find Stormcrow's and Arctic Cheetah's annoying. Also for those saying that I am using hyper quirked IS mechs, I am not. Typically I set up a built to how I play and what I feel is fun. I could care less what the meta is, often times I am in a locust or urbie. I also play alot of mediums. I do have meta mechs for group drops but I almost never pug with them.

Dire Wolf: Huge hit boxes and a giant CT. Just do not get right in front of it so you become it's target. Fairly easy to melt then, or rain missles/hold a lock so others can and almost all of them will hit it's CT.

Warhawk: Again huge CT but has enough mobility to limit it. IMO (though it is not shared) I fear these more than Dire Wolves. Not as high of an alpha so they are often dismissed.

Exectutioners and Gargoyles: Similar profiles so in the same category. Again big CT's though they do not have the punishing amount of firepower other mechs have. They do have mobility though so watch for the flank.

Timber Wolf: Shoot the ears off, even if missle pods are not equipped the shoulders are still quite big and give you an easy side torso hit. Taking that off strips half or more of its armament and can be done quickly. Going for the CT is dicy as it often spreads damage across 3 toros sections as it is quite small. Then if you are healthy and have the time rip the other ear off.

Summoner: I so want to love this mech but sadly it is vastly oversized like all clan mechs. Trouble is the hard points on it do not allow it to get away with it as the other mechs do, few of the, not enough tonnage to use the high ballistics and the energy ones are all low on the arms. Core it out again. It's only advantage is some ridiculous mobility. As a missle boat or pop tart sniper you can put up some good numbers if you use your speed and jets AND get the right map.

Hellbringer: Big side torsos again. Taking the right ST off usually means you take off a big ballistic. However taking the LT off takes out the ECM. Depends on the situation, getting rid of the jesus box is often more important.

Mad Dog: Side profile CT is a bit large but other than that not too bad. Low weapon mounts unless your running missles, either srm, ssrm or lrm. Honestly solid mechs I do not know why we do not see more of them, maybe because they are low on tonnage.

Ebon Jaguar: Large CT again but their mobility does make it a bit tougher to exploit.

Storm Crow: The only clan mech that IMO has no weaknesses. Geometry is pretty small so nothing to take advantage off, even shooting high on the torso the three locations are really even. I usually just try and leg them.

Nova: HUGE hit boxes all around. Pic your location though typically it is easiest to just core it out. Most configs are fairly short range though I have seen pop tart erppc builds on them.

Shadowcat: Medium version of the Summoner with all the same strengths and weaknesses. It has the redeeming jesus box though so as a sniper you can do very well with it. MASC also has its uses but neither of those can make it compete with the Stormcrow which is saying something.

Ice Ferret: Oversized light mech. Low on weapons and while it is quick and nimble again big hit boxes. Easier to core it out than leg it usually.

Mist Lynx: Oversized hit boxes this time on the arms and of course locked CAP. If you want to be usefull on this mech you have to have ecm, which means you bring that arm you bring no weapons on it. So shoot for the arms, either you take off all it's weapons or take off it's ECM. Win/Win.

Kit Fox: Oversized hit boxes again. Right arm usually has some kind of laser in it, ecm and on some builds AMS or AMSx3. Trouble is for some reason the AMS pods on the Kit Fox are massive. Kind of on the slow side.

Adder: Huge CT again, on top of that too slow and no jumps. Unlocking the flamer helped but not enough.

Arctic Cheetah: No real weakness again which is why everyone is on it about it being OP.


So of the 5 chassis I hear people complaining about being OP 3 of them have weaknesses that no comparison ever seems to mention. Large hit boxes. Be smart, do not stand right in front of these mechs.

To those saying a thunderbolt vs a summoner is a unfair comparison. No actually it is not they are within 5 tons of each other and in a perfect world would be a fair comparison with the edge going to the summoner.

Now a thunderbolt vs a ebon jaguar or a hellbringer is a fair comparison as they are the same weight. As pure weapon platforms the clan mechs are better but the thunderbolt has better geometry which is undervalued and if used right allows it to stand in the fight longer so it can go toe to toe with these mechs. In short a fair comparison.

Comparing a thunderbolt to a timberwolf is unfair as the timberwolf has 10 tons on it. That should be the Orion's job but I have not seen one of those in a long time because it has clan sized hit boxes with IS tech. It needs a complete rework but I doubt we will see it.

[Moomtazz]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 10:15 PM, said:

Alright, using those builds and without taking into consideration pilot skills and using a 22 ton engine in the thud to be similar to the summoner. I did my calculations under optimal range rather than 1km out due to math reasons and not wanting to calculate the dropoff. Heres what I got:

Thunderbolt (before quirks):
8 max DPS
3.28 DPS without overheating
7.11 Heat per second
59.8 Heat cap
2.98 Dissapation

Thunderbolt (after quirks)
9.2 max dps
3.28 DPS without overheating
7.11 Heat per second
59.8 Heat cap
2.98 Dissapation

Summoner (before quirks and without modules)
6.95 max dps
3.89 DPS without overheating
6.32 Heat per second
66.8 heat cap
3.68 Dissapation

Summoner (after quirks and without modules)
7.30 max dps
4.05 DPS without overheating
6.07 Heat per second
66.8 heat cap
3.68 Dissapation

Now for the armor+structure of each if they put all armor on CT front.
Summoner: 88 + 44 = 132
Thunderbolt: 84 + 42 = 126

if both pilots were firing without overheating
Summoner destroys Thunderbolt in about 31 seconds
Thunderbolt destroys Summoner in about 40 seconds

If both pilots were firing at max DPS
Summoner destroys Thunderbolt in about 17 seconds.
Thunderbolt destroys Summoner in about 14 seconds.
Thunderbolt would overheat in 14 seconds but doesn't by about 0.1 heat
Summoner would have still been under 70% heat

This comparison shows the Thunderbolt winning, but isn't quite a good comparison. As soon as the map is slightly more than heat neutral the Summoner has won due to Thunderbolt overheating. If the Thunderbolt was over 0% heat (aka running its engine) it would have also overheated before finishing the Summoner. Also in what reality would two mechs just stand still and constantly fire lasers at each other's CT without any twisting or movement.

If we were going by poking the Summoner has high manuverabilty to allow it to side peek better and jump jets to allow it to poptart. If we were going by a brawl all damage wouldn't be sent to the CT and the Thud would not kill the Summoner without overheating.

Here are the builds I used for the comparison.
Thud: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8fa7a09fdcd6d8e
Summoner: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f03df8bc2d5995b

EDIT: of course if we were going for DPS though there are better loadouts for it than alpha strike builds.

Your first clue as to why the Summoner is worse that the Thunderbolt will be found when you compare hard point locations.

[Moomtazz]

Dakota1000, on 08 October 2015 - 11:43 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e4902d869e8e522

42 point alpha, its not instant but then again neither is the thunder bolt's
dps is at 10.11, more than double what you asked. and 42% cooling, 40% if you want to swap a heat sink out for a TC.

If you are looking for pinpoint instant damage the Summoner can pull out 25 with PPC and Gauss combo on a mech prepared for poptarting.

C-LPL 1.12s, C-MPL 0.85s

IS-MPL 0.6s

I don't think you fully understand the benefit of a shorter burn time