21 replies to this topic

[Livewyr]

This will hopefully be the first in a series of balance suggestion volumes. I hope to go into some detail, without being verbose and scaring off all but the most dedicated discussion participants.

There are five objectives:
1: Keep TT Stats. (This is so we have a base framework to build on, and also pleases the Lore peoples.) Exceptions may include MGs/Flamers/LRMs
2: Balance weapons against eachother- including Clan Versus IS.
3: Encourage build diversity
4: Increase TTK
5: Maintain the flavor of the tech to keep the two forces distinct- without giving either force a decisive advantage all around.

In keeping with TT stats, I intend to use the soft stats as the balance factors.
These include:
Cooldown/Recycle
Beam Duration
Projectile Spread
Projectile Velocity
Volley/Burst/Stream (And length of burst)
Over-range.
Tracking

To begin with, you will notice that longer range weapons have a generally longer cooldown. This is to offset their range advantage, and allow for disadvantage when facing short range weapons.

General Tech balancing:
IS weapons will have 2x overange, Clan Weapons will have 1.5x over-range. (Except Gauss will remain 3x for both)
All Ammunition Based Weapons will have ammo per ton doubled. This to go with the double armor values to reduce the longevity disparity between lasers and their ballistic counterparts. (APT will be Shots/Cassettes per ton, ratheer than burst shells. Missiles will be Overall Missile amounts since (S)SRM6 ammo differs from all others (S)SRMS. I will keep PGI's method of simplification.)

Please read through the entire thing and pose questions for discussion. After spending several several several hours on this.. I don't need negativity, just questions/criticisms (and why) for the purpose of discussion and debate. I will defend my project naturally, but I will also change it where valid points arise. (And credit the catylist at the bottom)

I will be going to pair comparison weapons where applicable.
Starting with Energy

IS Small Laser
Damage: 3
Heat: 2 -> 1
Range 135 -> 90(180Max)
Cooldown 2.25 -> 1.75
Duration 0.75 -> 0.50
DPS: 1.00 -> 1.33
HPS: 0.67 -> 0.44
-------------------------------
Clan ER Small Laser
Damage: 5
Heat 3 -> 2
Range 200 -> 240(360Max)
Cooldown 2.25 -> 3.25
Duration 1 -> 1.1
DPS: 1.53 -> 1.15
HPS: 0.92 -> 0.46

(Comparison Note: Rate of damage and accuracy favors IS Laser due to duration difference of less than 50% of ERSL.)
-------------------------------
IS Medium Laser
Damage: 5
Heat: 4-> 3
Range 270(540Max)
Cooldown: 3
Duration: 0.9 -> 0.75
DPS: 1.28 -> 1.33
HPS: 1.03 -> 0.8
-----------------------------------
Clan ER Medium Laser
Damage: 7
Heat 6 -> 5
Range: 405 -> 450(675Max)
Cooldown: 3 -> 5.25
Duration: 1.14 -> 1.35
DPS: 1.69 -> 1.06
HPS: 1.45 -> 0.75
----------------------------------
IS Large Laser
Damage 9 -> 8
Heat 7 -> 8
Range 450(900Max)
Cooldown: 3.25 -> 5
Duration: 1
DPS: 2.12 -> 1.33
HPS: 1.65 -> 1.33
-----------------------------
IS ER Large Laser
Damage 9 -> 8
Heat 8 -> 12
Range 675 -> 570(1140Max)
Cooldown 3.25 -> 6.25
Duration: 1.25 -> 1
DPS: 1.96 -> 1.10
HPS: 1.73 -> 1.65
------------------------------
Clan ER Large Laser
Damage 11 -> 10
Heat 10 -> 12
Range 740 -> 750(1125Max)
Cooldown 3.25 -> 7.5
Duration 1.5
DPS: 2.31 -> 1.11
HPS: 2.10 -> 1.33

Reminder of IS duration benefit- greater accuracy and laser damage input.
=====================
IS Small Pulse Laser
Damage 4 -> 3
Heat 2
Range 110 -> 90(180Max)
Cooldown 2.25 -> 1
Duration 0.50 -> 0.30
DPS 1.45 -> 2.31
HPS 0.73 -> 1.53
-----------------------------------
Clan Small Pulse Laser:
Damage 6 -> 5
Heat 3
Range 165 -> 180(270Max)
Cooldown 2.25
Duration: 0.75
DPS 2.00 -> 1.66
HPS 1.00
---------------------------------
IS Medium Pulse Laser:
Damage 6
Heat 4
Range 220 -> 180(360Max)
Cooldown 3.00 -> 2.00
Duration 0.60 -> 0.45
DPS 1.67 -> 2.45
HPS 1.11 -> 1.63
---------------------------------
Clan Medium Pulse Laser:
Damage 8 -> 7
Heat 6 -> 4
Range 330 -> 360(540Max)
Cooldown 3 -> 3.5
Duration 0.85 -> 0.90
DPS 2.08 -> 1.59
HPS 1.04 -> 0.91
---------------------------------
IS Large Pulse Laser:
Damage 11 -> 9
Heat 7 -> 10
Range 365 -> 300(600Max)
Cooldown 3.25 -> 3.50
Duration 0.60
DPS 2.86 -> 2.57
HPS 1.82 -> 2.85
----------------------------------
Clan Large Pulse Laser:
Damage 13 -> 10
Heat 10
Range 600(900Max)
Cooldown 3.25 -> 6.50
Duration 1.12 -> 1.2
DPS 2.97 -> 1.29
HPS 2.29 -> 1.29
========================
IS PPC:
Damage 10
Heat 10
Range 540(1080Max)
Cooldown 4 -> 7
Velocity 1100 -> 2300
DPS 2.50 -> 1.43
HPS 2.50 -> 1.43
---------------------------------
IS ER PPC:
Damage 10
Heat 15
Range 810 -> 690(1380Max)
Cooldown 4 -> 8
Velocity 1200 -> 2300
DPS 2.50 -> 1.25
HPS 3.75 -> 1.87
-----------------------------------
Clan ER PPC
Damage 10(15) -> 15 (No spread)
Heat 15
Range 810 -> 690(1035Max)
Cooldown 4 -> 9.5
Velocity 1200 -> 2300
DPS 3.75 -> 1.57
HPS 3.75 -> 1.57
======================
------------------------------------
Now for Ballistics. (Soft Stats: Cooldown, Velocity, Burst shells/length/impulse)
I do not have current data on impulse readily available.. so it will be described.
Minimal, Slight, Moderate, Considerable, Heavy, Slam
I don't have LBX Spread numbers handy, so what they are, now, will be considered 1 (for each LBXAC)

IS AC2
Damage 2
Heat 1
Range 720(1440Max)
Projectiles 1
Duration N/A
Cooldown 0.72 -> 1
Velocity 2000
Impulse Minimal
DPS 2.78 -> 2.00
HPS 1.38 -> 1.00
APT 75 -> 90
-------------------------------------
Clan AC2 (Clan ACs Based off of Clan LBX-AC, since it is supposed to be analog of LBX alternate shot)
Damage 2
Heat 1
Range 900(1350Max)
Projectiles 1
Duration N/A
Cooldown 0.72 -> 1.30
Velocity 2000
Impulse Minimal
DPS 2.78 -> 1.54
HPS 1.38 -> 0.77
APT 75 -> 90
-----------------------------------
Clan Ultra AC2
Damage 2
Heat 1
Range 810(1215Max)
Projectiles 1
Duration N/A
Cooldown 0.72 -> 1.30
Jam Chance 20%
Velocity 2000
Impulse Minimal
DPS 2.78 (5.56) -> 1.54 (3.08)
HPS 1.38 (2.76) -> 0.77 (1.54)
APT 75 -> 90
------------------------------------
Clan LBX-AC2
Damage 2
Heat 1
Range 900(1350Max)
Projectiles 2
Duration N/A
Cooldown 0.72 -> 1.30
Velocity 2000
Spread 1
Impulse Slight
DPS 2.78 -> 1.54
HPS 1.38 -> 0.77
APT 75 -> 90
==========================
IS AC5
Damage 5
Heat 1
Range 620 -> 540(1080Max)
Projectiles 1
Duration N/A
Cooldown 1.66 -> 2.25
Velocity 1150
Impulse Moderate
DPS 3.01 -> 2.22
HPS 0.60 -> 0.44
APT 30 -> 40
-------------------------------------
Clan AC5
Damage 5
Heat 1
Range 720(1080Max)
Projectiles 1
Duration N/A
Cooldown 1.80 -> 2.90
Velocity 1150
Impulse Moderate
DPS 2.77 -> 1.72
HPS 0.55 -> 0.34
APT 30 -> 40
---------------------------------------
IS Ultra AC5
Damage 5
Heat 1
Range 600(1200Max)
Projectiles 1 -> 2
Duration 0.15
Cooldown 1.66 -> 2.40
Jam Chance 25%
Velocity 1150
Impulse Slight
DPS 3.01 (6.02) -> 2.08 (4.16)
HPS 0.60 (1.20) -> 0.41 (0.82)
APT 30 -> 40
-------------------------------------------
Clan Ultra AC5
Damage 5
Heat 1
Range 630(945Max)
Projectiles 2
Duration 0.10 -> 0.20
Cooldown 1.66 -> 2.90
Jam Chance 25%
Velocity 1150 -> 1100
Impulse Slight
DPS 2.84 (5.68) -> 1.66 (3.32)
HPS 0.57 (1.14) -> 0.33 (0.66)
APT 30 -> 40
--------------------------------------------
Clan LBX-AC5
Damage 5
Heat 1
Range 720(1080Max)
Projectiles 5
Duration N/A
Cooldown 01.66 -> 2.90
Velocity 1330
Spread 1.00 -> 1.10 (10% Larger)
Impulse Considerable
DPS 2.77 -> 1.72
HPS 0.55 -> 0.34
APT 30 -> 40
===========================
IS AC10
Damage 10
Heat 3
Range 450(900Max)
Projectiles 1 -> 2
Duration 0.20
Cooldown 2.5 -> 5
Velocity 950 -> 1000
Impulse Considerable
DPS 4.00 -> 1.92
HPS 1.20 -> 0.58
APT 20
--------------------------------------------
Clan AC10
Damage 10
Heat 2
Range 540(810Max)
Projectiles 3 -> 2
Duration 0.30
Cooldown 2.5 -> 6
Velocity 950
Impulse Considerable
DPS 3.57 -> 1.59
HPS 0.71 -> 0.32
APT 20
--------------------------------------------
Clan Ultra AC10
Damage 10
Heat 2
Range 540(810Max)
Projectiles 3
Duration 0.30 -> 0.35
Cooldown 2.5 -> 6
Jam Chance 30%
Velocity 950
Impulse Moderate
DPS 3.57 (7.14) -> 1.57 (3.14)
HPS 0.71 (1.42) -> 0.31 (0.62)
APT 20
--------------------------------------------
IS LBX-AC10
Damage 10
Heat 2
Range 540(1080Max)
Projectiles 10
Duration N/A
Cooldown 2.5 -> 5.50
Velocity 1100
Spread 1.00
Impulse Heavy
DPS 4.00 -> 1.82
HPS 0.80 -> 0.36
APT 15 -> 20
--------------------------------------------
Clan LBX-AC10
Damage 10
Heat 2
Range 540(810Max)
Projectiles 10
Duration N/A
Cooldown 2.5 -> 6.00
Velocity 1100
Spread 1.00 -> 1.20
Impulse Heavy
DPS 4.00 -> 1.67
HPS 0.80 -> 0.36
APT 15 -> 20
============================
IS AC20
Damage 20
Heat 6 -> 7
Range 270(540Max)
Projectiles 1 -> 3
Duration NA -> 0.35
Cooldown 4 -> 6.25
Velocity 650 -> 750
Impulse Heavy
DPS 5.00 -> 3.03
HPS 1.50 -> 1.06
APT 7 -> 10
---------------------------------------------
Clan AC20
Damage 20
Heat 6 -> 7
Range 360(540Max)
Projectiles 4 -> 3
Duration 0.40
Cooldown 4 -> 7
Velocity 650 -> 750
Impulse Heavy
DPS 4.54 -> 2.70
HPS 1.36 -> 0.95
APT 7 -> 10
-------------------------------------------
Clan Ultra AC20
Damage 20
Heat 7
Range 360
Projectiles 4
Duration 0.40 -> 0.55
Cooldown 4 -> 8
Jam Chance 40%
Velocity 650
Impulse Heavy
DPS 4.54 (9.08) -> 2.33(4.66)
HPS 1.36 (2.72) -> 0.81(1.62)
APT 7 -> 10
-------------------------------------------
Clan LBX-AC20
Damage 20
Heat 7
Range 360(540Max)
Projectiles 20
Duration N/A
Cooldown 4 -> 7.50
Velocity 1100 -> 900
Spread 1.00 -> 1.30
Impulse Slam
DPS 5.00 -> 2.67
HPS 1.75 -> 0.93
APT 7 -> 10
=========================
IS Gauss Rifle
Damage 15
Heat 1
Range 660(1980Max)
Cooldown 4 -> 9.5
Velocity 2000
Impulse Heavy
DPS 3.75 -> 1.58
HPS 0.25 -> 0.10
APT 10 -> 16
Health 5 -> 10
Explosion Chance 90% -> 60%
----------------------------------------
Clan Gauss Rifle
Damage 15
Heat 1
Range 660(1980Max)
Cooldown 4 -> 10.5
Velocity 2000
Impulse Heavy
DPS 3.75 -> 1.43
HPS 0.25 -> 0.09
APT 10 -> 16
Health 5 -> 7
Explosion Chance 90%
========================
--------Missiles--------------------
----Short Range Missiles---- APT 100 -> 200 Missiles per ton (SRM/SSRM)
IS SRM2
Damage 4.3 -> 4
Heat 2
Range 270
Projectiles 2
Cooldown 2 -> 1.5
Velocity 300 -> 400
Spread 1.00 -> 0.50
Impulse Slight
DPS 2.15 -> 2.67
HPS 1.00 -> 1.33
-------------------------------------------
Clan SRM2
Damage 4
Heat 2
Range 270
Projectiles 2
Cooldown 2.00
Velocity 300
Spread 1.00
Impulse Slight
DPS 2.00
HPS 1.00
--------------------------------------
IS SRM4
Damage 8.6 -> 8
Heat 3
Range 270
Projectiles 4
Cooldown 3.00
Velocity 300 -> 400
Spread 1.00 -> 0.75
Impulse Moderate
DPS 2.86 -> 2.67
HPS 1.00
------------------------------------
Clan SRM4
Damage 8
Heat 3
Range 270
Projectiles 4
Cooldown 3 -> 3.50
Velocity 300
Spread 1.00 -> 1.25
Impulse Moderate
DPS 2.67 -> 2.29
HPS 1.00 -> 0.86
-----------------------------------------
IS SRM6
Damage 12.9 -> 12
Heat 4
Range 270
Projectiles 6
Cooldown 4 -> 4.5
Velocity 300 -> 400
Spread 1.00
Impulse Considerable
DPS 3.22 -> 2.67
HPS 1.00 -> 0.88
------------------------------------
Clan SRM6
Damage 12
Heat 4
Range 270
Projectiles 6
Cooldown 4 -> 5.25
Velocity 300
Spread 1.00
Impulse Considerable
DPS 3.00 -> 2.29
HPS 1.00 -> 0.76
==========================
Streaks. Tracking refers to the agility of the missile (how fast can it turn to chase a target) 1 Refers to what we have now- where it turns 90 within a few meters.

IS Streak SRM
Damage 4
Heat 2
Range 270
Projectiles 2
Cooldown 3.5 -> 2.5
Velocity 200 -> 300
Strength 1 -> .80
Impulse Slight
DPS 1.14 -> 1.60
HPS 0.57 -> 0.80
--------------------------------------
Clan Streak SRM2
Damage 4
Heat 2
Range 360
Projectiles 2
Cooldown 3.5
Velocity 180 -> 250
Strength 1 -> 0.70
Impulse Slight
DPS 1.14
HPS 0.57
--------------------------------------
Clan Streak SRM4
Damage 8
Heat 3
Range 360
Projectiles 4
Cooldown 5 -> 7
Velocity 180 -> 250
Strength 1 -> 0.60
Impulse Moderate
DPS 1.60 -> 1.14
HPS 0.60 -> 0.43
---------------------------------------
Clan Streak SRM6
Damage 12
Heat 4
Range 360
Projectiles 6
Cooldown 6 -> 10.50
Velocity 180 -> 250
Strength 1 -> 0.50
Impulse Considerable
DPS 2.00 -> 1.14
HPS 0.67 -> 0.43
==========================
----Long Range Missiles -------- APT 180 -> 240 Missiles------------
IS LRM5
Damage 5
Heat 2
Range 1000
Projectiles 5
Cooldown 3.25 -> 5.00
Velocity 160 -> 225
Tracking 1.00 -> 1.50
Impulse Slight
DPS 1.54 -> 1.00
HPS 0.61 -> 0.4
----------------------------------------
Clan LRM5
Damage 5
Heat 2
Range 1000
Projectiles 5
Cooldown 3.50 -> 5.25
Duration 0.25
Velocity 160 -> 200
Tracking 1 -> 1.40
Impulse Minimal (per missile)
DPS 1.33 -> 0.91
HPS 0.53 -> 0.36
--------------------------------------
IS LRM10
Damage 10
Heat 4
Range 1000
Projectiles 10
Cooldown 3.75 -> 6.25
Velocity 160 -> 225
Tracking 1 -> 1.25
Impulse Moderate
DPS 2.66 -> 1.60
HPS 1.07 -> 0.64
--------------------------------------
Clan LRM10
Damage 10
Heat 4
Range 1000
Projectiles 10
Cooldown 4 -> 6.50
Duration 0.50
Velocity 160 -> 200
Tracking 1 -> 1.20
Impulse Minimal
DPS 2.22 -> 1.43
HPS 0.89 -> 0.57
--------------------------------------
IS LRM15
Damage 15
Heat 5
Range 1000
Projectiles 15
Cooldown 4.25 -> 7.50
Velocity 160 -> 225
Tracking 1
Impulse Considerable
DPS 3.53 -> 2.00
HPS 1.18 -> 0.67
--------------------------------------
Clan LRM15
Damage 15
Heat 5
Range 1000
Projectiles 15
Cooldown 4.5 -> 7.75
Duration 0.75
Velocity 160 -> 200
Tracking 1
Impulse Minimal
DPS 2.85 -> 1.76
HPS 0.95 -> 0.59
--------------------------------------
IS LRM20
Damage 20
Heat 6
Range 1000
Projectiles [b]20[/b]
Cooldown 4.75 -> [b]8.75[/b]
Velocity 160 -> [b]225[/b]
Tracking 1 -> [b]0.75[/b]
Impulse [b]Heavy[/b]
DPS 4.21 -> [b]2.29[/b]
HPS 1.26 -> [b]0.69[/b]
--------------------------------------
Clan LRM20
Damage [b]20[/b]
Heat [b]6[/b]
Range [b]1000[/b]
Projectiles [b]20[/b]
Cooldown 5 -> [b]9.00[/b]
Duration [b]1.00[/b]
Velocity 160 -> [b]200[/b]
Tracking 1 -> [b]0.60[/b]
Impulse [b]Minimal[/b]
DPS 3.33 -> [b]2.00[/b]
HPS 1.00 -> [b]0.60[/b]
==========================

[b]This concludes Volume 1.[/b] (Future volumes will address, Information Warfare, Omni vs Standardmechs, Endo/Ferro, SHS/DHS/cDHS and STD/XL/Clan XL Engines.)

Edited by Livewyr, 16 October 2015 - 12:36 PM.

[Tyler Valentine]

I love it. I've always wished that TTK would be increased by increasing cooldown times for the weapons considerably. It would make firing your weapons a much bigger commitment, you'd better be sure of a hit to a vital component because you're going to be waiting a while before you can fire again. It would also cut down on Long Range Alphawarrior Online because firing a large alpha of 300m+ weapons would leave you defenseless for a long period of time. And, to that point, it would cause much more build diversity, because the best builds, like in real (lol) Battletech would have a mix of high powered, heavy hitting weapons and smaller faster recharge weapons.

Edited for my original, somewhat pessimistic attitude. It seems there is a lot of support for this idea

Edited by Tyler Valentine, 09 October 2015 - 12:23 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Interesting, I think we need to just go ahead and adjust damage values too.

Here's what I'd like to see:



Damage per Projectile is changed, Velocities increased, Damage per Ton increased, Ranges extended, Fire Delay on AC's, Gauss keeps Charge. LB-X is five pellets.



Ranges adjusted to Laser type, Clans reduced Range, Damage normalized, Pulses pulse!, PPCs see a new Fire Delay.



Range adjusted, velocity adjusted, Damage per Missile increased, Missiles per salvo decreased (SRMs 4 dam each, LRMs 2.5 each), cooldowns adjusted and increased. Spread is greater on Clan variants.

Edit: forgot to mention that the Blue Column (after HPS) sees IS DHS at 0.4 Dissipation 2.0 Capacity, while C-DHS are 0.3 Dissipation 1.6 Capacity due to wide open customization ability. Last two have needed HS and one ton ammo calculated in those values.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 09 October 2015 - 10:56 AM.

[Livewyr]

Tyler; Thank you- that is the effect I am going for. Most importantly, making long range weapons a commitment- and bring ballistics closer to lasers in longevity considering armor values.

Praetor: I am hoping to keep Table top stats in order to set a basis. There is a plethora of weapons of different damages from 2 through 10 and then 15 and 20 at different ranges. One of the problems with changing weapons is that it floats several damage adjustment threads. (Like the 3.0 damage SRMs thread)

Not to mention applying Lore where possible- I'm not a slave to lore/TT, but I do appreciate that it's a standard we can build from and derive flavor from.

[CDLord HHGD]

I know you and I end up on opposite sides of discussions like this, but I really like the thought and analysis you put into this. If I had one criticism it would be the laser ranges.

If
IS SL = 90m
Then
IS SPL = 90m (because nothing below 90m default)
C ERSL = 180m
C SPL = 120m

Taking optimum range here too, not max. I just think the laser ranges for Clan is too far....

Quote

IS Small Laser
Damage: 3
Heat: 2 -> 1
Range 135 -> 90(180Max)
Cooldown 2.25 -> 1.75
Duration 0.75 -> 0.50
DPS: 1.00 -> 1.33
HPS: 0.67 -> 0.44
-------------------------------
Clan ER Small Laser
Damage: 5
Heat 3 -> 2
Range 200 -> 240(360Max)
Cooldown 2.25 -> 3.25
Duration 1 -> 1.1
DPS: 1.53 -> 1.15
HPS: 0.92 -> 0.46

=====================
IS Small Pulse Laser
Damage 4 -> 3
Heat 2
Range 110 -> 90(180Max)
Cooldown 2.25 -> 1
Duration 0.50 -> 0.30
DPS 1.45 -> 2.31
HPS 0.73 -> 1.53
-----------------------------------
Clan Small Pulse Laser:
Damage 6 -> 5
Heat 3
Range 165 -> 180(270Max)
Cooldown 2.25
Duration: 0.75
DPS 2.00 -> 1.66
HPS 1.00

[Livewyr]

cdlord, on 09 October 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

I know you and I end up on opposite sides of discussions like this, but I really like the thought and analysis you put into this. If I had one criticism it would be the laser ranges.

If
IS SL = 90m
Then
IS SPL = 90m (because nothing below 90m default)
C ERSL = 180m
C SPL = 120m

Taking optimum range here too, not max. I just think the laser ranges for Clan is too far....

Heyas cdlord, that was a concern that I had as well, but there are a few things I'd like you to also consider.

1: The Burn time is more than double on the ERSL (which is important in a light fight)
2: The Heat efficiency and DPS is greater in the Small laser so once the the lights close, the Inner Sphere has the advantage
3: The IS ER S/M are coming eventually they have greater range than you are suggesting for the clan ERSL.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Livewyr, on 09 October 2015 - 11:04 AM, said:

Praetor: I am hoping to keep Table top stats in order to set a basis. There is a plethora of weapons of different damages from 2 through 10 and then 15 and 20 at different ranges. One of the problems with changing weapons is that it floats several damage adjustment threads. (Like the 3.0 damage SRMs thread)

Not to mention applying Lore where possible- I'm not a slave to lore/TT, but I do appreciate that it's a standard we can build from and derive flavor from.

I understand, but I don't see how else to make specific weapons for stock loadouts viable keeping damage per projectile at P&P values when those are basically damage over 10 seconds. So I use that original damage value to translate to DPS and then apply a multiplier with a new Damage per Projectile/Beam/Missile in mind due to the perceived limits with the cryengine, HSR and so on.

For example, to have the C-UAC/2 viable on say the Mist Lynx or Ice Ferret, to where those chassis variants that mount them stock, could then see quirks to increase DPS and sustain HPS, since those are only able to carry one each, although it might be interesting to see if increasing ballistic hardpoint count would help on various variants to be able to stack more MGs on.

And then the DRN-5N and BLR-1D could have a 12 damage ripping ballistic arm using three AC/2s without needing quirks available as a build that is not reliant on increased face time and should still have solid DPS due to the quicker cooldowns over say the Gauss Rifle.

And as always, the Direwolf is the 800 lbs gorilla, that likely needs better variant nerfs to account for its hardpoint count.

Edited by Praetor Knight, 09 October 2015 - 11:25 AM.

[Livewyr]

Praetor Knight, on 09 October 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

I understand, but I don't see how else to make specific weapon for stock loadouts viable keeping damage per projectile at P&P values when those are basically damage over 10 seconds. So I use that original damage value to translate to DPS and then apply a multiplier with a new Damage per Projectile/Beam/Missile in mind due to the perceived limits with the cryengine, HSR and so on.

For example, to have the C-UAC/2 viable on say the Mist Lynx or Ice Ferret, to where those chassis variants that mount then stock, could then see quirks to increase DPS and sustain HPS, since those are only able to carry one each, although it might be interesting to see if increasing ballistic hardpoint count would help on various variants to be able to stack more MGs on.

And then the DRN-5N and BLR-1D could have a 12 damage ripping ballistic arm using three AC/2s without needing quirks available as a build that is not reliant on increased face time and should still have solid DPS due to the quicker cooldowns over say the Gauss Rifle.

And as always, the Direwolf is the 800 lbs gorilla, that likely needs better variant nerfs to account for its hardpoint count.

What are we comparing the (U)AC2 to when considering the balance system you recommend? (I think it has very good accuracy and decent rate of fire for it's range, in the OP iteration- which is to make up for it's front damage/weight disparity.)

The Dire Wolf's problem is mobility- which will be further addressed in the upcoming engine volume.

[CDLord HHGD]

Livewyr, on 09 October 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

Heyas cdlord, that was a concern that I had as well, but there are a few things I'd like you to also consider.

1: The Burn time is more than double on the ERSL (which is important in a light fight)
2: The Heat efficiency and DPS is greater in the Small laser so once the the lights close, the Inner Sphere has the advantage
3: The IS ER S/M are coming eventually they have greater range than you are suggesting for the clan ERSL.

In that case, all this is very test worthy. Carry on and I look forward to the next volume(s).

[Livewyr]

cdlord, on 09 October 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

In that case, all this is very test worthy. Carry on and I look forward to the next volume(s).

Thank you! I am hoping to get it to a point where enough of the player base champions the idea (or a close derivative of it) that PGI might be willing to address it.

Hoping. lol

[Eggs Mayhem]

I only made it to lasers in your post, but I have a huge problem with the relationship between IS Medium Lasers and Large Lasers. I'm assuming that since you never specified weight that tonnage remains unchanged (it should be unchanged), so adding 4 tons to your medium laser to upgrade it to a LL means no change in DPS and a sharp 40% loss in heat efficiency for a mild range boost and a mild damage boost. Using your suggested ranges there'd be no reason to take IS LLs, MLs would have a heat efficiency identical to LLs right at 432m, just 18m shy of LLs optimal range, matching their DPS for 4 tons less.

As far as the general theme of your balancing criteria, you really need to add heat to your soft stats, and make HPS the hard stat instead. Stock mech builds in battletech are effectively built around HPS, so in order to maintain the heat efficiency and thus the playstyle of canon builds HPS needs to be respected.

Probably more to address, I'll keep reading.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Livewyr, on 09 October 2015 - 11:27 AM, said:

What are we comparing the (U)AC2 to when considering the balance system you recommend? (I think it has very good accuracy and decent rate of fire for it's range, in the OP iteration- which is to make up for it's front damage/weight disparity.)

The Dire Wolf's problem is mobility- which will be further addressed in the upcoming engine volume.

At 2 Damage, and then raising cooldown to 1.3 as suggested does make it cooler (lowering both DPS and HPS), but also a weaker weapon wielded alone.

Sure it has decent range and velocity, but with current armor and structure values plus quirks, it's still a weak weapon overall. That's why I'd like to see how they perform with increased damage per projectile.



And with the Dire, I can see 6xUAC/5s, 4xUAC/10s and even a mix of UAC/20s really tearing things up if Projectiles are at 5, 10 and 20 damage respectively! So not sure if we really want to see that.

[keith]

*cough* u do know tt values of lrms= 660 ms. think i was 1 of the few who played MWO with them and glad u didn't make it so:P beside that, y do your changes seem so logical, and make the game decent to play....

[Cion]

Livewyr, on 09 October 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

Thank you! I am hoping to get it to a point where enough of the player base champions the idea (or a close derivative of it) that PGI might be willing to address it.

Hoping. lol

This is definately worth looking into by PGI. Your calculations may not be "perfect", but I think they would bring more balance. PGI should test these values in a closed group, or a volunteer group (private matches). PTS (public match search) doesn't seem to work as well.

Keep it up, looking forward to more "volumes".

and now for the rant:
The amount of work and passion this community has and puts into this game goes to waste. I cannot believe PGI does not tap more into the productive community!!! ARGGGGHHHH
/end rant

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

@OP:

In general, I like what you've put together. However, I have a few things I'd suggest changing.

1 - Ammo counts. We don't need to double ammo to compensate for double armor. We do need to increase it over TT values, though. I favor regularizing AC ammo via damage/ton (say, ~160, which would give you 8 AC20 shots per ton). SRM ammo should move to 120/ton, which regularizes it across all launcher sizes, both for full and half tons.

2 - Gauss maximum range. Is there a balance reason for Gauss, and only Guass, to have x3 max? It seems to me like it simply makes what is already one of the best outlier weapons into an even stronger option.

3 - cERPPC damage. Admittedly having a very long cooldown for the cERPPC mitigates the problematic weapon somewhat, but it still poses a potential damage issue. Damage arcing (or PGI's current primitive spread mechanic) would let it retain a damage advantage over IS versions without letting it have fully 50% boosted pinpoint damage for no cost in heat (and at a lower tonnage and critical slot cost).

4 - LB-AC damage/pellet. I suggest a 20% damage boost to LB-ACs, or 1.2 per pellet, retaining TT rating as number of pellets per shot. This gives the line a niche that it currently lacks in MWO, and would be easy to iterate around (increasing or decreasing damage/pellet as necessary).

I also think that an aggressive heat rework is necessary to acheive weapon balance, but no matter how intricately linked the two topics are, heat technically isn't part of weapons per se, so I won't get into that here.

[Squarebasher]

TT stats do not work, this is not table top, TT has probably caused most of the issues in the first place.

[Livewyr]

EmperorMyrf, on 09 October 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

I only made it to lasers in your post, but I have a huge problem with the relationship between IS Medium Lasers and Large Lasers. I'm assuming that since you never specified weight that tonnage remains unchanged (it should be unchanged), so adding 4 tons to your medium laser to upgrade it to a LL means no change in DPS and a sharp 40% loss in heat efficiency for a mild range boost and a mild damage boost. Using your suggested ranges there'd be no reason to take IS LLs, MLs would have a heat efficiency identical to LLs right at 432m, just 18m shy of LLs optimal range, matching their DPS for 4 tons less.

As far as the general theme of your balancing criteria, you really need to add heat to your soft stats, and make HPS the hard stat instead. Stock mech builds in battletech are effectively built around HPS, so in order to maintain the heat efficiency and thus the playstyle of canon builds HPS needs to be respected.

Probably more to address, I'll keep reading.

Thank you for taking the time to respond.
1: People would take IS Large Lasers if they want to do damage beyond 540 meters. The idea is not to make the Large laser (any Large laser) as effective as the Medium laser inside the medium laser's range. Where the large laser is inferior to the medium laser within the medium laser's range, it is infinitely superior outside the medium laser's range.
2: The Heat per shot is directly taken from TT values. (HPS is derived from heat per shot, whether it is derived from the TT 10 second turns, or Heat per shot granted in a real time game is inconsequencial IMO.

Praetor Knight, on 09 October 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

At 2 Damage, and then raising cooldown to 1.3 as suggested does make it cooler (lowering both DPS and HPS), but also a weaker weapon wielded alone.

Sure it has decent range and velocity, but with current armor and structure values plus quirks, it's still a weak weapon overall. That's why I'd like to see how they perform with increased damage per projectile.

In the current gameplay style, 1.3 cooldown is steep for a 2 damage weapon, but I would like you to also consider the difference that 1.3 makes when risking shots. An AC5 has slightly more DPS, but each shot is also more of a gamble. Out of 10 damage, if the AC5 misses one shot, it goes down to 5 damage. If it misses 2, it goes down to 0. With the AC2, if it missies 2 shots, it goes down to 6 damage. (Longer range shots are more of a commitment in this game, with the AC2, you pay in tonnage for the decreased risk of damage loss.)

Praetor Knight, on 09 October 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

And with the Dire, I can see 6xUAC/5s, 4xUAC/10s and even a mix of UAC/20s really tearing things up if Projectiles are at 5, 10 and 20 damage respectively! So not sure if we really want to see that.

I hope I understand your concern here:
There would be no 10 or 20 damage projectiles. (anything larger than AC5 has burst shots- IS included, so a casset of shots that equal to 20- like in Lore)

The Dire Wolf is going to have overwhelming firepower no matter what we do to the weapons. That is why it is locked in at the slowest of any assault. (Spoiler- it is going to take another hit to mobility in the Engines volume.)

keith, on 09 October 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

*cough* u do know tt values of lrms= 660 ms. think i was 1 of the few who played MWO with them and glad u didn't make it so:P beside that, y do your changes seem so logical, and make the game decent to play....

Indeed. hehe that is why I put that exception in the OP along with MGs and Flamers.

And thank you for the compliment! (I spent several hours a day for a few days hammering this out- and it still isn't done.)

Cion, on 09 October 2015 - 11:45 AM, said:

This is definately worth looking into by PGI. Your calculations may not be "perfect", but I think they would bring more balance. PGI should test these values in a closed group, or a volunteer group (private matches). PTS (public match search) doesn't seem to work as well.

Keep it up, looking forward to more "volumes".

and now for the rant:
The amount of work and passion this community has and puts into this game goes to waste. I cannot believe PGI does not tap more into the productive community!!! ARGGGGHHHH
/end rant

I appreciate that. (And Agree with your rant, it is well founded.)

[Eggs Mayhem]

Livewyr, on 09 October 2015 - 12:07 PM, said:

Thank you for taking the time to respond.
1: People would take IS Large Lasers if they want to do damage beyond 540 meters. The idea is not to make the Large laser (any Large laser) as effective as the Medium laser inside the medium laser's range. Where the large laser is inferior to the medium laser within the medium laser's range, it is infinitely superior outside the medium laser's range.
2: The Heat per shot is directly taken from TT values. (HPS is derived from heat per shot, whether it is derived from the TT 10 second turns, or Heat per shot granted in a real time game is inconsequencial IMO.

1. The issue is that they aren't different enough, outside of one weighing 5x more than the other. Also the increase in DPS for the ML means we'd see nothing but ML boating with your current values; why does a HBK-4P get to have 10.66 DPS and AWS-8Q only gets 4.29? Are suggesting that the relationship between DPS and Range is linear (per loadout, not per weapon)? Because that's an incorrect assumption.
2. I should have been more specific. HPS = Heat per Second, not Heat per Shot. It so happens that in TT the Heat values and HPS values are identical, but because this is a real-time game with continuous gameplay we are not restricted by that relationship.

I read through the rest. Overall I would be disappointed to see these numbers make it to the game, smaller weapons got massively buffed and larger weapons got nerfed so we'd really see no difference in TTK, the meta would have just shifted from Assaults/Heavies to Lights/Mediums.

Ignoring all these criticisms though I do like the relationship between IS and Clan. But honestly their weapons are generally balanced now, it's just that Clans can carry more and bigger weapons so their alphas are higher and our heat scale allows alphas to happen. That's another thread.

EDIT: grammar
EDIT2: idk how I missed it, but I should have said that we'd see nothing but MPL boating. That's far too high an increase in DPS.

Edited by EmperorMyrf, 09 October 2015 - 12:40 PM.

[Livewyr]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 09 October 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

@OP:

In general, I like what you've put together. However, I have a few things I'd suggest changing.

1 - Ammo counts. We don't need to double ammo to compensate for double armor. We do need to increase it over TT values, though. I favor regularizing AC ammo via damage/ton (say, ~160, which would give you 8 AC20 shots per ton). SRM ammo should move to 120/ton, which regularizes it across all launcher sizes, both for full and half tons.

That is similar to what we have now, but given that all of the mechs have twice as much armor, it takes twice as many shots to get through it. This is one of the reasons that Lasers are so popular, especially in community warfare, they have infinite longevity.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 09 October 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

2 - Gauss maximum range. Is there a balance reason for Gauss, and only Guass, to have x3 max? It seems to me like it simply makes what is already one of the best outlier weapons into an even stronger option.

The 3x range on Gauss (as well as its low heat) is offset by the charge and explosion risk- as well as having the longest cooldown in the game. (9.5+charge for IS, 10.5+charge for clans)

I don't want to hurt it too much because its only real competitor is the PPC which has unlimited ammo and faster projectile.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 09 October 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

3 - cERPPC damage. Admittedly having a very long cooldown for the cERPPC mitigates the problematic weapon somewhat, but it still poses a potential damage issue. Damage arcing (or PGI's current primitive spread mechanic) would let it retain a damage advantage over IS versions without letting it have fully 50% boosted pinpoint damage for no cost in heat (and at a lower tonnage and critical slot cost).

I am on the fence about this one. The damage arcing often results in damage loss (like hitting anything but a torso). It also does have a 1.5 second longer cooldown and a 300m shorter maximum range.

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 09 October 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

4 - LB-AC damage/pellet. I suggest a 20% damage boost to LB-ACs, or 1.2 per pellet, retaining TT rating as number of pellets per shot. This gives the line a niche that it currently lacks in MWO, and would be easy to iterate around (increasing or decreasing damage/pellet as necessary).

I would rather not change the damage value of the LBXs because that is a ghost buff to their TT damage. That niche I gave them in this game is that they have the highest impulses in their class for hitting someone. (Getting hit by an LBX 10 or 20, is going to be felt much harder than any of the other ACs.)

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 09 October 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

I also think that an aggressive heat rework is necessary to acheive weapon balance, but no matter how intricately linked the two topics are, heat technically isn't part of weapons per se, so I won't get into that here.

I would like them to rework heat (heat penalties to say the least) but as long as the heat system is consistent across all mechs, balance can be found with it. (They definitely need to fix the Engine doubles for light mechs to include up to 10.. that is a violation of their own system.)

[Livewyr]

EmperorMyrf, on 09 October 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

1. The issue is that they aren't different enough, outside of one weighing 5x more than the other. Also the increase in DPS for the ML means we'd see nothing but ML boating with your current values; why does a HBK-4P get to have 10.66 DPS and AWS-8Q only gets 4.29? Are suggesting that the relationship between DPS and Range is linear (per loadout, not per weapon)? Because that's an incorrect assumption.

1: Where are you getting 10.66 DPS for the swayback?
2: The Medium laser is significantly better within its own range. When you get out of its range, it is useless. The Large Laser will do 8 damage at 10 meters, 100 meters, 270 meters, and 450 meters. Then it will continue to do damage until nearly twice the range of the medium laser.

The Medium laser boat and the large laser boat will both be outclassed by a mech running mediums and larges.

EmperorMyrf, on 09 October 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

2. I should have been more specific. HPS = Heat per Second, not Heat per Shot. It so happens that in TT the Heat values and HPS values are identical, but because this is a real-time game with continuous gameplay we are not restricted by that relationship.

I understand you meant Heat per Second, but I still say that picking one over the other is superfluous.

EmperorMyrf, on 09 October 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

I read through the rest. Overall I would be disappointed to see these numbers make it to the game, smaller weapons got massively buffed and larger weapons got nerfed so we'd really see no difference in TTK, the meta would have just shifted from Assaults/Heavies to Lights/Mediums.

1: Sad that you feel that way.
2: I would like the meta to shift from going all long range (and then filling in remaining DPS with smaller weapons), and I do not think that it will shift the mech meta considerably in a particular direction, but if it shifted it away from heavies and assaults, i would not complain too loudly.
3: I don't see how the TTK gets decreased or stays the same, when the DPS of all but the very smallest weapons (ISMPL/SPL/SL/ML/(S)SRM2s) stayed the same or went down.

EmperorMyrf, on 09 October 2015 - 12:24 PM, said:

Ignoring all these criticisms though I do like the relationship between IS and Clan. But honestly their weapons are generally balanced now, it's just that Clans can carry more and bigger weapons so their alphas are higher and our heat scale allows alphas to happen. That's another thread.

I do not see how the weapons are balanced now. Long-ranged weapons have similar rates of fire to short range weapons, giving them a decent chance at short range, and no competition at long range. (This is why nearly every meta mech prioritizes long range weapons and then fills out the remainder with short range weapons/whatever will fit.)

[EDIT- word choice]

Edited by Livewyr, 09 October 2015 - 12:55 PM.