65 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

If you are piloting an Atlas, you shouldn't be caught completely alone vs. a pack of lights unless you did something very wrong. You don't have to keep up with the mediums and heavies, you only have to keep up with the other assaults. If you cannot do that, swap out to a bigger engine.

At the beginning of the game (when it can be a problem if you spawn in a bad place), you only need to stay with your lance until the team can form up. I do not know too many light pilots (or lances of lights) that want to take on an entire assault lance by themselves.

If you are engaged by pesky lights, COMMUNICATE it to the team. If they do not come to help, they are a bad team and you were probably doomed to lose anyway.

[Burktross]

Khobai, on 09 October 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

if you say so. heavies are the most popular weight class for a reason. because theyre outright better than the other three weight classes. And not just but a small margin. But by a pretty considerable margin. playing a heavy gives you an undeniable advantage and thats why theres such a huge bias toward heavies.

I already said each weight class needs its own strengths and weaknesses. the problem with heavies is that they combine the strengths of mediums and assaults with little or NONE of the weaknesses. the ebon jaguar is a perfect example of a heavy that has virtually no weaknesses; its super fast, has pretty good hitboxes, its scaled like a 55 ton mech, it can carry a devasting dual gauss/laser loadout, etc... and its very easy to spam three of them in a CW dropdeck.

Heavies are the easiest mechs to play, considering their loadout flexibility and (mosts') jack of all trades qualities. Its advantage ain't so much in gameplay itself as in the metagame. Their advantage is palpable, but not nearly as huge as you imply. Just look at mechs like the Orion, Grasshopper, and Black Knight. Venerable and capable mechs for sure, but not
doom incarnate. Heavy is also probably the most popular weight class not because its class itself is OP, but that it has the game's most OP mechs-- Thunderbutt, Ebon Jagwire, and Timber Dong. Nerfs ought to be applied to those mechs before screwing over the heavy class as a whole, just like clan mechs. (Just because the Timberdong, the most popular Clanner mech was[/is] OP, doesn't mean Clan mechs themselves are).

Khobai, on 09 October 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

And i never once said that it should be a hard counter system like rock->paper->scissors. Obviously skill should overcome adversity. But in general a light mech should have an advantage over an assault, due to its ability to stay in the assaults rear arc. Likewise, in general, assaults should have an advantage over heavies in terms of firepower and survivability. And ultimately it should upto the player to be able to leverage those advantages through skill.

See bellow.

Khobai, on 09 October 2015 - 04:59 PM, said:

heavies shouldnt stand a chance against them. thats what it means to be an assault mech.

Khobai, on 09 October 2015 - 07:01 PM, said:

The point is most assaults dont really have the advantage they should have over heavies. Primarily due to the fact that assaults hit the same heat brick wall that heavies do. So assaults cant really pump out more firepower than heavies because they both hit the same limit when it comes to heat. Additionally heavies tend to have much better survivability than assaults with superior hitboxes, smaller scalling, faster torso twisting, better mobility, etc.. and the fact assaults have more armor is completely contradicted by them having huge oversized hitboxes and being slow.

So then, what do you suppose we do other than blanket nerf heavies? The first thing that comes to mind is acceleration and armor boosts (not ****** structure stuff), and some Heat quirks for mechs focused around other high tonnage weapons such that they can't cram multiple DHS (Atlas).

[stjobe]

wanderer, on 09 October 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Like any behemoth ship, assaults need their "fighter escort", and that's light 'Mechs.

No. That's medium 'mechs, or in MWO, heavies. Lights are actually the worst protection against other lights you can have.

wanderer, on 09 October 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Woe to the light that goes hunting whales only to find it's escorts chasing them into the assault's guns.

Woe the light, period. Mediums have more armour than them so will win a war of attrition, heavies have both more armour and weaponry (to the point they can sometimes one-shot them), and assaults can definitely one-shot them.

[Tsar Bomba]

Hotthedd, on 10 October 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

If you are piloting an Atlas, you shouldn't be caught completely alone vs. a pack of lights unless you did something very wrong. You don't have to keep up with the mediums and heavies, you only have to keep up with the other assaults. If you cannot do that, swap out to a bigger engine.

I'm running a 360.

Hotthedd, on 10 October 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

At the beginning of the game (when it can be a problem if you spawn in a bad place), you only need to stay with your lance until the team can form up. I do not know too many light pilots (or lances of lights) that want to take on an entire assault lance by themselves.

Many times I spawn with much smaller assaults. Even with a 360 I am left behind.

Hotthedd, on 10 October 2015 - 04:42 AM, said:

If you are engaged by pesky lights, COMMUNICATE it to the team. If they do not come to help, they are a bad team and you were probably doomed to lose anyway.

I'm not going to blame teammates for an inherent flaw in the tactics expected from an assault mech. These are people, not NPCs I order around. They want to get into the fight and get kills as much as anyone. they shouldn't be required to baby sit an inferior class of mech.

I appreciate what you're saying, but honestly as soon as I master Atlas, I'm done with the 100s and that's all I care about. I'll move on to something else, heavies probably. Already mastered the DW and the KC and they were much easier (though the DW would get left behind as well, and there was nothing i could do about that.)

[Fleeb the Mad]

Burktross, on 10 October 2015 - 09:08 AM, said:

Heavies are the easiest mechs to play, considering their loadout flexibility and (mosts') jack of all trades qualities. Its advantage ain't so much in gameplay itself as in the metagame. Their advantage is palpable, but not nearly as huge as you imply. Just look at mechs like the Orion, Grasshopper, and Black Knight. Venerable and capable mechs for sure, but not
doom incarnate. Heavy is also probably the most popular weight class not because its class itself is OP, but that it has the game's most OP mechs-- Thunderbutt, Ebon Jagwire, and Timber Dong. Nerfs ought to be applied to those mechs before screwing over the heavy class as a whole, just like clan mechs. (Just because the Timberdong, the most popular Clanner mech was[/is] OP, doesn't mean Clan mechs themselves are).

So then, what do you suppose we do other than blanket nerf heavies? The first thing that comes to mind is acceleration and armor boosts (not ****** structure stuff), and some Heat quirks for mechs focused around other high tonnage weapons such that they can't cram multiple DHS (Atlas).

If I were to frame the problem between heavies and assaults currently, it's the difference in average speed across the board.

For example, on the IS side most assaults compare favorably with heavies because many IS heavies are equally relegated to using STD engines. Heavies are in general faster, but there's not a huge gulf in their capabilities.

The Clan heavies as a group are what wrecked the trend, because Clan XL engines are hax. Every single Clan heavy runs at the same base speed, 86 kph, and exclusively use XL engines. You focus on the Twolf and the Ebon Jag, but the honest truth is that all of the Clan heavies as a group have caused the average speed of any team to rise substantially. IS heavies have been forced to move faster, to the point where what was the average speed for an IS heavy is now the absolute minimum if you want to stand a chance of keeping up.

A simpler way to frame the problem is just to list out the top heavy mechs. The only Clan heavy that's not on the list is the Summoner. You include the Tbolt, though...isn't that limited to one specific variant which has a certain quirk set, as opposed to the chassis in general?

I think it's pretty clear the Clan heavies are the problem and they need to be taken down a few pegs, as opposed to attempting to buff everything else.

[Hotthedd]

Tsar Bomba, on 10 October 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:

I'm running a 360.



Many times I spawn with much smaller assaults. Even with a 360 I am left behind.



I'm not going to blame teammates for an inherent flaw in the tactics expected from an assault mech. These are people, not NPCs I order around. They want to get into the fight and get kills as much as anyone. they shouldn't be required to baby sit an inferior class of mech.

I appreciate what you're saying, but honestly as soon as I master Atlas, I'm done with the 100s and that's all I care about. I'll move on to something else, heavies probably. Already mastered the DW and the KC and they were much easier (though the DW would get left behind as well, and there was nothing i could do about that.)

It is a team game.

If your teammates are going to play for themselves first, and the team second, your team is probably going to lose.