81 replies to this topic

[DAYLEET]

MeiSooHaityu, on 13 October 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

Is that a new mech on the left? Cool!


Oh wait, nevermind I recognize it now, it is a Shadow Hawk. Man, it has been AGES since I seen one ingame, I forgot what they looked like.

It's amazing how they went from the hot stuff to MIA when the quirks first went live. Maybe it will rise again after the next quirk pass.

Oh, and yes, the Shadow Hawk is way too big. It probably should have been included in a rescale, but when you only want to pick a few, many deserving mechs get left out.

It still has one of the best hitbox model in the game, the hero was great on the pts. Just no quirk to show for. The size is fine as far as the mech goes. And i think the heavy end of weight class should connect with the low end of the next weight class.

[PurpleNinja]

One important thing to add, I have video evidence (which I'm too lazy to edit and upload right now) showing that TBR has some areas between ST and arm which simply did not register any damage.
This explains how I can effectively survive longer piloting a Timber Wolf.

[rolly]

What I don't get is, why didn't they notice this? I mean its like Ral Partha all over again where you have the Jenner model as tall and bulky as some heavy mechs. Or the Owens being double the mass of the Panther. Isn't this a bit of a quality control issue? This can't possibly because of some reason like "balance".

[Burktross]

Though I'm all for size normalization, I fear how exactly this will affect lights and some mediums...

[zagibu]

rolly, on 18 October 2015 - 02:40 PM, said:

What I don't get is, why didn't they notice this? I mean its like Ral Partha all over again where you have the Jenner model as tall and bulky as some heavy mechs. Or the Owens being double the mass of the Panther. Isn't this a bit of a quality control issue? This can't possibly because of some reason like "balance".

Well, some mechs are out of line, but the general trend to make lights smaller than they should be, could actually be because of balance considerations. If you think about it, lighter mechs both have less armor AND less firepower, for only a speed advantage.

[Khobai]

Quote

So what does this data tell us? The first insight is that in general, light mechs are much too small and everything else is slightly too large,

Nah lights arnt too small. Lights are the perfect size. Its everything else thats too damn big.

Medium mechs in particular get screwed by the bad scaling... because they get neither the speed of lights or the armor of heavies. When PGI scales mechs they should at least try to get the mediums right.

Edited by Khobai, 27 October 2015 - 03:29 PM.

[DAYLEET]

2012-2014 "mech are too big do something PGI!"

2015 PGI finaly create smaller mech that dont need much quirks "mechs are too small! increase them PGI!"

[zagibu]

Khobai, on 27 October 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

Nah lights arnt too small. Lights are the perfect size. Its everything else thats too damn big.

Yeah, you can see it like that, since it was a relative comparison.

DAYLEET, on 27 October 2015 - 04:30 PM, said:

2012-2014 "mech are too big do something PGI!"

2015 PGI finaly create smaller mech that dont need much quirks "mechs are too small! increase them PGI!"

Sorry, but that's a pretty dumb thing to say. Nobody ever said the Spider is too big. And now nobody says the Catapult is too small.

Also, this is just an analysis. Is the Crab too small? Yes. Should it be scaled up? Probably not.

PurpleNinja, on 18 October 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

One important thing to add, I have video evidence (which I'm too lazy to edit and upload right now) showing that TBR has some areas between ST and arm which simply did not register any damage.
This explains how I can effectively survive longer piloting a Timber Wolf.

A little bird has told me that there has been some success in extracting the hitbox data from the game files, so we might soon be able to directly see such gaps.

[William Mountbank]

zagibu, on 27 October 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

A little bird has told me that there has been some success in extracting the hitbox data from the game files, so we might soon be able to directly see such gaps.

This would be good. Everybody still piles hate on the Spider, despite it being currently worthless next to the ACH, and even worse, PGI increased the hitboxes well beyond the 3D mesh (as has been demonstrated previously), so I don't think your data is completely useful without bounding box sizes.

Edited by William Mountbank, 28 October 2015 - 12:57 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Great post!! This needs stickied! Come on mods make it happen!

[DAYLEET]

zagibu, on 27 October 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

Sorry, but that's a pretty dumb thing to say. Nobody ever said the Spider is too big. And now nobody says the Catapult is too small.

The catapult wasnt created in 2015 and it needs strong quirks esp in the armor deparment. As a timeline, up until 2014, people complained that most mech were created too big, that all mech should be scaled down. These mech needed strong quirks to survire the great powercreep. The mech they make now don't requires those quirks, for exemple Wolfy, Crabby and Blacky, but lo and behold, people complain that they ARE TOO SMALL.

The spider? can you nitpick harder?

Edited by DAYLEET, 28 October 2015 - 07:15 AM.

[zagibu]

DAYLEET, on 28 October 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

The catapult wasnt created in 2015 and it needs strong quirks esp in the armor deparment. As a timeline, up until 2014, people complained that most mech were created too big, that all mech should be scaled down. These mech needed strong quirks to survire the great powercreep. The mech they make now don't requires those quirks, for exemple Wolfy, Crabby and Blacky, but lo and behold, people complain that they ARE TOO SMALL.

You do realize that it's a relative thing? We have lots of mechs that are too big. Now if they make the new ones too small, then the old big mechs will be even bigger in relation to the new ones. That's why it's not a good trend to make new mechs undersized. However, I think it's actually good that the Crab and the Black Knight are a little smaller, because they don't have to offer much in the other departments.

[zagibu]

Here's a small update with the Wolfhound, and, as you can see, it follows the trend of new mech = smaller (it's the second smallest mech and heavily undersized for its tonnage):

[Karl Streiger]

Lately i was again "analysing" the MWLL Balancing and without proof it looks like the armor in MWLL is based on hitbox sizes. (I don't know for truth) - but the values were fluctuation around the almost the same values.

I did the same with MWO values - but it was not very accurate because we don't have all the models MWLL had.


I also had no clue about the "hitbox" sizes.

But i did remember this topic and tennex topic before - so collected all the Clan Armor/Structure Quirks on life system and the the PTS4 IS Armor/Structure quirks (call them hitpoints)

In the following graphs - you see Armor per Ton of Mech - the red line is without quirks. The ugly part ist the decreasing rate - i realyl think the HPPT (Hitpoint per ton) should be on the average have a positive trend.

The second graph uses the pixel sizes of those Mechs - the red line shows the "stock" armor without quirks - it shows that ShadowHawk, Kintaro, Griffin, Stromcrow have almost the same value without quriks - but of course with quriks the PPHP (pixel per hitpoint) is different.
I can understand that it should be a "balance" issue to uparmor Mechs - but in my eyes its a foul taste when you look at the "blue" Cliff of the Nova and compare it with the Stormcrow.

Here is the table - sort by Pixel per HP - it changes the ranking a little bit

Mech Variants	HP Quirks	HP Total	Pixel Per HP	HP per T
Spider	70	382	46	13
Commando 1D	105	363	48	15
Panther 10P	98	452	49	13
Panther 10K	82	436	50	12
Jenner O	83	437	51	12
Spider 5D	35	347	51	12
Commando 1B2D3ADK	78	336	52	13
Panther 9R 8Z	70	424	52	12
Urbanmech R60	70	382	53	13
Locust 1V3V	90	294	53	15
Wolfhound 1A	36	390	53	11
Mist Lynx D	80	338	53	14
Wolfhound	27	381	54	11
Mist Lynx Prime B A	64	322	56	13
Mist Lynx C	58	316	57	13
Urbanmech R63 L	35	347	58	12
Blackjack	164	620	59	14
Raven H	90	444	60	13
Crab	80	584	60	12
Arctic Cheetah A	52	364	62	12
Jenner		354	63	10
Locust 1E1M3S3M	44	248	63	12
Crab 27L	52	556	63	11
Raven 4X	62	416	64	12
Arctic Cheetah B	34	346	65	12
Zeus 5S	140	878	66	11
Raven 2X	40	394	67	11
Hunchback 4Sp	160	664	68	13
Arctic Cheetah Prime C	20	332	68	11
Cicada 2B 3C X5	76	484	69	12
Black Knight	111	801	69	11
Firestarter		354	69	10
Atlas	149	1067	70	11
Cicada 3M 3F	62	470	71	12
Zeus	83	821	71	10
Raven 3L	16	370	72	11
Enforcer 4P	85	589	72	12
Cicada 2A	48	456	73	11
Grasshopper 5P	96	744	73	11
Jagermech	91	721	74	11
Kitfox Prime	63	375	74	13
Kitfox D	60	372	75	12
Kitfox C	59	371	75	12
Adder Prime D	44	398	76	11
Grasshopper 5N	70	718	76	10
Kitfox S	57	369	76	12
Shadowhawk GB	106	658	76	12
Enforcer 5P	56	560	76	11
Grasshopper 5H 5J	63	711	76	10
Highlander 732B	117	951	76	11
Highlander HM	114	948	77	11
Adder B A	36	390	77	11
Battlemaster 2C	131	917	78	11
Griffin 3M	94	646	78	12
Enforcer 4R 5D	40	544	78	11
Mauler 1P	36	870	78	10
Ice Ferret A D	58	514	78	11
Kintaro 20	88	640	79	12
Vindicator 1X	100	556	79	12
Highlander	84	918	79	10
Executioner		876	79	9
Ice Ferret B	51	507	80	11
Mauler	20	854	80	9
Ice Ferret C	48	504	80	11
Awesome PB	79	817	80	10
Ice Ferret Prime	46	502	80	11
Gargoyle B	82	820	81	10
Gargoyle Prime	77	815	81	10
Trebuchet LG	96	600	81	12
Hunchback GI	52	556	81	11
Orion	111	801	82	11
Shadowcat B	45	501	82	11
Cataphract 0X,1X 2X	104	752	83	11
Trebuchet 7K	84	588	83	12
Awesome	53	791	83	10
Shadowcat A	38	494	83	11
Gargoyle D	56	794	83	10
Trebuchet	80	584	83	12
Shadowhawk 2H 2D2 5M	47	599	84	11
Gargoyle C	48	786	84	10
Griffin Sparky	50	602	84	11
Gargoyle A	46	784	84	10
Kintaro GB	44	596	84	11
Thunderbolt TM	101	731	84	11
Ebon Jaguar		630	85	10
Hunchback 4G 4H 4P	30	534	85	11
King Crab	34	952	85	10
Shadowcat Prime P	28	484	85	11
Banshee		876	85	9
Griffin 1N 1S	44	596	85	11
Shadowhawk 2K	37	589	85	11
Vindicator	58	514	85	11
Catapult	161	791	85	12
Timberwolf		690	85	9
Centurion AL	88	592	86	12
Hunchback 4J	24	528	86	11
Griffin 2N	38	590	86	11
Stalker		786	87	9
Summoner Prime	60	708	87	10
Nova C	128	632	87	13
Kintaro 18 19	26	578	87	11
Direwolf		918	87	9
Warhawk C	78	864	87	10
Summoner C	57	705	87	10
Centurion YLW AH	76	580	87	12
Victor	34	772	88	10
Wolverine Q	40	592	88	11
Battlemaster	28	814	88	10
Dragon	110	710	88	12
Nova D	120	624	88	12
Warhawk Prime	69	855	88	10
Quickdraw IV	106	706	88	12
Warhawk A	67	853	88	10
Centurion D	68	572	89	11
Summoner B	45	693	89	10
Summoner D	44	692	89	10
Warhawk B	60	846	89	10
Cataphract 3D IM	49	697	89	10
Stormcrow A B	5	557	91	10
Wolverine	18	570	91	10
Centurion A	52	556	91	11
Stormcrow Prime C D		552	91	10
Nova A	96	600	91	12
Quickdraw	76	676	92	11
Nova Prime	88	592	93	12
Thunderbolt	30	660	94	10
Maddog C	8	608	94	10
Wolverine 7K		552	94	10
Nova B	80	584	94	12
Maddog		600	95	10
Hellbringer B	8	638	95	10
Hellbringer Prime	4	634	96	10
Hellbringer A		630	96	10
Nova S	64	568	97	11

---

How to improve? Well first i admit I'm little bit uncertain about the testimony of my pixel per hitpoint analysis. The next is it just take all the values - and ignores the place of those quirks - so !!!!60!!! points of armor are found on the arms of the Heavy Metal.
Maybe for better significance - it would be necessary to put all the hitbox sizes and compare them with the location armor

---

Edit: Just as a reminder, if size / scale of a mech will have influence on its sensor profile bigger mechs will have an additional drawback

Edited by Karl Streiger, 17 November 2015 - 02:25 AM.

[zagibu]

Thank you, Karl, for this post. I have tried to summarize and link it at the bottom of the original message in this thread, please let me know if you have any corrections.

[DAYLEET]

The ShadowHawk is huge and still has one of the best chassis hitbox of the InnerSphere. Numbers on papers don't mean much.

Edited by DAYLEET, 17 November 2015 - 04:00 PM.

[Spr1ggan]

Khobai, on 27 October 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

Nah lights arnt too small. Lights are the perfect size. Its everything else thats too damn big.

Medium mechs in particular get screwed by the bad scaling... because they get neither the speed of lights or the armor of heavies. When PGI scales mechs they should at least try to get the mediums right.

Too be fair you can't even fit a pilot in the commandos cockpit, with the size of that model the pilot would more be wearing it like an exosuit than piloting it from the cockpit. xD

[zagibu]

DAYLEET, on 17 November 2015 - 03:59 PM, said:

The ShadowHawk is huge and still has one of the best chassis hitbox of the InnerSphere. Numbers on papers don't mean much.

The Shadowhawk is slightly above average. Not huge. But you are right that the structure of the individual hitboxes is very important as well, and missing from this analysis. The data in this thread basically only tells you how easy it is to hit a mech ANYWHERE.

[jss78]

Looking at the plot -- I'm still waiting for the popular movement to make the biggest offender of all, the Spider considerably bigger (in profile). While I agree about all mechs chosen for rescaling, the underlying argumentation was always "please make my favourite mech smaller!". It's true it was needed, but it's also a bit of a half-truth, and a good example of why you shouldn't listen too closely to the user community.

Edit: misread the graph a bit

Edited by jss78, 18 November 2015 - 01:07 AM.

[Dino Might]

Spr1ggan, on 17 November 2015 - 04:22 PM, said:

Too be fair you can't even fit a pilot in the commandos cockpit, with the size of that model the pilot would more be wearing it like an exosuit than piloting it from the cockpit. xD

So....how would one fit a person in the cars and trucks and whatnot that dot the landscape? If the above scale is true, then a pilot is about the size of a SUV?