76 replies to this topic

[Hammerhai]

On a technical note, Statistically it is very possible to be permanently situated as an outlier. We call it excellence or suckage, with a liberal dose of ELO hell. At least the underhive is quite relaxed. I should go back to rolling with a joystick.

[El Bandito]

SkippyT72, on 11 October 2015 - 09:03 AM, said:

Thing that cracks me up win with 1 kill 4 assts and 250 points, PSR goes up, lose with 3 kills and 3 assts 450 points PSR goes down, thought it was all about each players skill in that drop, not the win / loss because you got grouped with players that did not play well that drop.

PSR does not go down at 450 points even in a loss. Stop exaggerating or no one will take you seriously.

TamCoan, on 11 October 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

That is not true. I had both extremes today. 400 damage and 1-2 kills netted me a match score of 289. We lost and I went down in PSR. On the flip side was in a match with an assault where I got left behind and jumped by the entire enemy team. I did maybe 40 damage. We won and I went up in PSR. I have also been tracking how it works. Next time I'll screen cap it and post it.

This too. Never dropped rating after earning 289 score.

I am having hard time fitting into T1, but by Jove I will not complain, I will improve. Even when driving basic Adder, which I did.

Edited by El Bandito, 11 October 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[Hammerhai]

Another serious issue:
I joined for CW, and now stay away from ALL group queues like the plague because of the skillz differential and ROflstomping. We have a high number of members in my group, but most of them are inactive. 12 mans are a total rarity these days in my outfit. In CW beta we were up there with Merc Star. Now CW is written off by most as DOA.

So in the sense that the Solo queue is more bearable than the group queue, yes, both ELO and PSR are working.

[Appogee]

El Bandito, on 11 October 2015 - 05:56 PM, said:

I am having hard time fitting into T1, but by Jove I will not complain, I will improve.

I noticed you were Tier 2 when PSR was introduced. How close to the top of Tier 2 were you at that time?

[El Bandito]

Appogee, on 11 October 2015 - 07:03 PM, said:

I noticed you were Tier 2 when PSR was introduced. How close to the top of Tier 2 were you at that time?

Edited by El Bandito, 11 October 2015 - 07:17 PM.

[MischiefSC]

TamCoan, on 11 October 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

That is not true. I had both extremes today. 400 damage and 1-2 kills netted me a match score of 289. We lost and I went down in PSR. On the flip side was in a match with an assault where I got left behind and jumped by the entire enemy team. I did maybe 40 damage. We won and I went up in PSR. I have also been tracking how it works. Next time I'll screen cap it and post it.

I thought you meant a score of 400. you might go down with a 289 on a loss; probably not a lot but it can happen. Depends where you're at. What 'average' is for you I would think. You may have missed 'break even' by 11 points. 'Missed by > < that much' comes to mind.

The point though is what PSR represents - if you scored 289 and the match was a loss, where does that 'rank' you compared to everyone else? Score 400 and a loss? I know you go up with that. ~300 and a loss? I know you break even. Not sure where the precise point values are there but it's right at those points. 300-400 and a win, obviously you go up because it can be pretty certain you contributed to the win.

400 damage and a loss? What you do contributes to the success of your team. It's really that simple. I get people want to pretend that nothing they do affects win/loss, but it does. Damage is only a part (only a moderate part even) of what wins/loses matches. Kills? Again, moderate impact. Spotting, protecting teammates, coordinating a bit with your team, making useful suggestions in chat, not leaving people behind, etc. etc. All that goes into a win vs a loss.

You don't play in a vacuum. Nobody does. If you don't feel you contribute significantly to the success or failure of your team then you're going to create a self-perpetuating prophecy.

[Wintersdark]

TamCoan, on 11 October 2015 - 05:44 PM, said:

That is not true. I had both extremes today. 400 damage and 1-2 kills netted me a match score of 289. We lost and I went down in PSR. On the flip side was in a match with an assault where I got left behind and jumped by the entire enemy team. I did maybe 40 damage. We won and I went up in PSR. I have also been tracking how it works. Next time I'll screen cap it and post it.

If you lost rating, you only barely did.

Keep in mind, 400 damage and 1-2 kills is merely adequate, not a good performance. That's not a large contributor to victory, it's merely not being a drain on your team.

So, at that point you've done your job, if your team won. Presumably, the effort was well shared between teammates. If your team didn't win, though, you certainly don't deserve to gain rating from that.

But, as I said, that is VERY close to the "no rating change" point on a loss, which is pretty accurate IMHO - if you'd done 21 more damage (you said a score of 289?) you'd have had no change to your rating, which would have been the game saying "You did ok by yourself, so we won't penalize you, but the game was still a loss."

The Win/Loss effect on the scoring is a good thing, as it allows the system to account for the intangibles, which are significant. Mischief addresses them above, and they absolutely matter.

If they DIDN'T include Win/Loss column shifting (that's all it does, BTW: shifts the results in the chart by one column), they'd need a higher score range of rating loss on a win or else everyone would *shoot* up in ranking.

[PyckenZot]

I would honestly like to drop to T3 and be able to enjoy levelling new mechs,... Currently I can either be a burden when doing that or an asset by driving more optimized mechs,... Sadly, I'm going up.

Then again, my ego likes being in the higher tiers

[El Bandito]

Wintersdark, on 12 October 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

If you lost rating, you only barely did.

Keep in mind, 400 damage and 1-2 kills is merely adequate, not a good performance. That's not a large contributor to victory, it's merely not being a drain on your team.

So, at that point you've done your job, if your team won. Presumably, the effort was well shared between teammates. If your team didn't win, though, you certainly don't deserve to gain rating from that.

But, as I said, that is VERY close to the "no rating change" point on a loss, which is pretty accurate IMHO - if you'd done 21 more damage (you said a score of 289?) you'd have had no change to your rating, which would have been the game saying "You did ok by yourself, so we won't penalize you, but the game was still a loss."

No rating change is 251 points or above, BTW.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 October 2015 - 12:58 AM.

[Paigan]

DaZur, on 11 October 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

Fustrated your psr is dropping like a brick? Tired of getting rolled like a Cuban cigar? Sick of making minimum wage for maximum effort?

Ever stop to think your psr is normalizing and your not being punished?

Seriously, the constant complaining and grousing over your perceived disenfranchisement is getting old real quick. The absolute arrogance that your skill level can't possibly be where your psr is adjusting to is quite comical...

My psr continues to dive because I'm not very good... I'm honest with my self assessment and while it pains my ego... I appreciate that my psr is normalizing. My matches are slowly becoming more equitable. My net gains are slowly increasing. My matches are becoming more fun.

Sorry, maybe my age is showing through... Or maybe I'm easily resigned. Psr nomization sucks no doubt. Hell. I got a healthy dose of it last night. The truth is I'm pretty much receiving what I deserve.

Not pointing fingers but some folk around here need just check their egos and play the game.

A little sample:

- I play 100% PUG (got numerous invites but no nerve for a unit with regular trainings, pub-like TS babbling, etc.)
- I get stomped A LOT just like everybody else.
- I play 90% Mechs that are considered "sub-par" (Warhawk, Adder, Shadow Cat).
- I consider match score to be highly unfair (punishing my team contribution, tactical play and efficiency, rewarding mindless damage spraying which I don't do)
- My PSR rating is constantly going up nevertheless, never going down.

Maybe, JUST MAYBE, it's sometimes really the players fault when PSR is going down instead of up.

After all, anything there is from weak PUG players to broken MM and unfair PSR counts for both sides, so the chance of a PUG team winning vs. another PUG team is always 50-50 in the long run. The rest is up to you.

My advice: Try to contribute to the win, play tactical, help team mates, shifting the stomps to 53-47 in your favor.
You'll still get stomped a lot, but you'll go up.

Edited by Paigan, 12 October 2015 - 01:26 AM.

[Paigan]

Wintersdark, on 12 October 2015 - 12:42 AM, said:

[...]
Keep in mind, 400 damage and 1-2 kills is merely adequate, not a good performance. That's not a large contributor to victory, it's merely not being a drain on your team.
[...]

Wait: 400 damage is enough to easily kill a 100tonner despite serious damage spreading and 1-2 kills means lifting more than one's weight.
If everbody performs like that, it's a 12-0 roflstomp.

Check your standards, I'd say that IS a good performance.
I guess what you mean is it's not a "OMG HOLY $HIT, HE'S GODLIKE"-performance.
But it IS a good performance.

Edited by Paigan, 12 October 2015 - 01:36 AM.

[El Bandito]

Paigan, on 12 October 2015 - 01:31 AM, said:

Wait: 400 damage is enough to easily kill a 100tonner despite serious damage spreading and 1-2 kills means lifting more than one's weight.
If everbody performs like that, it's a 12-0 roflstomp.

Check your standards, I'd say that IS a good performance.
I guess what you mean is it's not "OMG HOLY $HIT, HE'S GODLIKE"-performance.
But it IS a good performance.

Depends on the class. If an Assault get 1-2 kills and 400 damage, that's on the low performance side. Also, in Solo-Q, one needs to do better than that to steadily advance thanks to less perfoming teammates, AFKs and DCs...

[Paigan]

El Bandito, on 12 October 2015 - 01:36 AM, said:

Depends on the class. If an Assault get 1-2 kills and 400 damage, that's on the low performance side. Also, in Solo-Q, one needs to do better than that to steadily advance thanks to less perfoming teammates, AFKs and DCs...

Wrong.
If you have 12 assaults, each delivering 400 damage and 1-2 kills, it means you roflstomped 12 arbitrary mechs 12-0.

As I wrote above: I for example play tactical and win-contribution oriented. I don't dakka out tons of damage, I don't hunt killing blows (okay, a little, hehe). I help my team mates (e.g. pressing enemies into cover from afar while the brawlers close in). 400 damage 1 kills happens to be my average. And still I win more than I lose in the long run.
It's the tactical contribution that counts and that is NOT reflected in those two tiny numbers.

Edited by Paigan, 12 October 2015 - 01:41 AM.

[El Bandito]

Paigan, on 12 October 2015 - 01:39 AM, said:

Wrong.
If you have 12 assaults, each delivering 400 damage and 1-2 kills, it means you roflstomped 12 arbitrary mechs 12-0.

As I wrote above: I for example play tactical and win-contribution oriented. I don't dakka out tons of damage, I don't hunt killing blows (okay, a little, hehe). I help my team mates (e.g. pressing enemies into cover from afar while the brawlers close in). 400 damage 1 kills happens to be my average. And still I win more than I lose in the long run.
It's the tactical contribution that counts and that is NOT reflected in those two tiny numbers.

Remind me where we can get 12 Assaults in Solo-Q. And most likely 2 of them would be AFK at start, 1 will DC mid game, and half will die without doing over 200 damage. Hence my need to carry. Of course, I am very strict with myself, cause if I learned 1 thing in Solo-Q, it is that teammates are at best fodder, at worst, liability.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 October 2015 - 02:04 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Getting the red arrow is the only joy I take away from losing. Every red arrow I get, the closer I am to T4 and more fun.

[Paigan]

El Bandito, on 12 October 2015 - 02:02 AM, said:

Remind me where we can get 12 Assaults in Solo-Q. And most likely 2 of them would be AFK at start, 1 will DC mid game, and half will die without doing over 200 damage. Hence my need to carry. Of course, I am very strict with myself, cause if I learned 1 thing in Solo-Q, it is that teammates are at best fodder, at worst, liability.

You mix up different things that obscure the point.

The point was: if everyone has 400 damage and 1-2 kills, it's an awesome team performance (EVEN if they WERE all 12 assaults, referring to your argument that assaults need to deliver more than lighter mechs).

Also, you can very well have 12 assaults in CW, you know.

DCs happen, of course, but they have nothing to do with evaluating the principle performance potential.
You can't just assume that one side has more DCs than the other.
If you so badly want to mix up things that don't belong together, you'd have to say every side has one DC or every side has two DCs or whatever and we start the whole thing over with 11vs11 or 10vs10.

Sometime people should really just admit a fault in their logic instead of bringing up more and more confusing stuff.

In the end, one thing remains: If everybody delivers 1-2 kills, it's a glorious roflstomp-win.

[DaZur]

MechWarrior5152251, on 11 October 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

If your PSR is dropping there is something seriously wrong with you. No matter how bad you play you are going to get carried in half the matches, which means you must really be tipping the games into losses.....

To be fair, I readily admitted to not being very good...

cdlord, on 12 October 2015 - 04:26 AM, said:

Getting the red arrow is the only joy I take away from losing. Every red arrow I get, the closer I am to T4 and more fun.

Join me my brother... Together we shall rule the T4 underverse !

Edited by DaZur, 12 October 2015 - 05:11 AM.

[TamCoan]

It's all subjective. You can get 400 damage, 2 kills and lose 12-2 and you did more than "just hold your own". You can get less damage and be a better contributor to your team. A good scout can win the game for you and do no damage. No matter how good you are, if you have 11 people on your side out in the open shooting each-other than you are not going to do well.

Anyway, as someone pointed out before, PSR is really just a level bar. Keep doing decent and you will get to T1 with time and matches.

[sycocys]

El Bandito, on 12 October 2015 - 12:54 AM, said:

No rating change is 251 points or above, BTW.

Did they drop that since the last time I was checking on it? Seemed like it was 300+

[El Bandito]

sycocys, on 12 October 2015 - 05:30 AM, said:

Did they drop that since the last time I was checking on it? Seemed like it was 300+

As far as I remember, it was always 251.

TamCoan, on 12 October 2015 - 05:14 AM, said:

Anyway, as someone pointed out before, PSR is really just a level bar. Keep doing decent and you will get to T1 with time and matches.

If one still does decent in T1-2, then he is pretty skilled.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 October 2015 - 06:16 AM.