46 replies to this topic

[JigglyMoobs]

Agree with most of the comments here.

OP was practicing the classic set of maneuvers known as Doing it Wrong^TM Lights should be pretty survivable if you do it right.

A lot of comments here have great tips on how to do it right.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 12 October 2015 - 11:19 AM.

[Skarlock]

TheRAbbi, on 12 October 2015 - 11:07 AM, said:

It DOES often seem that the game favors bigger, heavier mechs. Truth be told, they still haven't figured out the whole "role warfare" thing yet. There was a public test not long ago, and will likely be more iterations of it, to work on a balance that might make that more of a thing in the future. Right now, there's just not a lot of appreciation in the public/solo queue for scouts, and the talent in indirect fire support is short thanks to the mid-range laser brawl meta.

Why do people think of light mechs as "scouts"? A scout would be a horrible, horrible thing to play in this game. You'd get to see exactly what is coming to destroy your team without having any real way to deal with that threat yourself. It would be like having map hacks and no guns to actually take advantage of it, relying 100% on your teammates to do something intelligent with the information they provide. Would *anyone* want to play a dedicated scout with absolute minimal firepower in this game?

On the other hand when PGI gives firepower to lights, at least enough to actually be a legitimate threat in and of themselves, and good hitboxes to boot, everyone comes out complaining that it's grossly unfair, screaming to high heavens to get it nerfed. See Ember, Firestarter S, Firestarter A, Arctic cheetah. These mechs have less range less alpha and less sustainability than a lot of medium mechs, and pale in comparison offensively to heavies and assaults, yet they get nerfed because heavens forbid light mechs have some actual potential to kill someone who's not paying attention and gets their back exposed to them.

I think lights are in a good place now for the top end ones, as they simply can't be ignored. They have to be treated as a legitimate, serious threat once they get at someones back, or in a long game where longer range lights have the chance to shine at cleaning up, but in spite of the fact few people dedicate the time to learn how to play them, they are about right in terms of overall power level for the top tier lights.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Skarlock, on 12 October 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

Why do people think of light mechs as "scouts"? A scout would be a horrible, horrible thing to play in this game. You'd get to see exactly what is coming to destroy your team without having any real way to deal with that threat yourself. It would be like having map hacks and no guns to actually take advantage of it, relying 100% on your teammates to do something intelligent with the information they provide. Would *anyone* want to play a dedicated scout with absolute minimal firepower in this game?

On the other hand when PGI gives firepower to lights, at least enough to actually be a legitimate threat in and of themselves, and good hitboxes to boot, everyone comes out complaining that it's grossly unfair, screaming to high heavens to get it nerfed. See Ember, Firestarter S, Firestarter A, Arctic cheetah. These mechs have less range less alpha and less sustainability than a lot of medium mechs, and pale in comparison offensively to heavies and assaults, yet they get nerfed because heavens forbid light mechs have some actual potential to kill someone who's not paying attention and gets their back exposed to them.

I think lights are in a good place now for the top end ones, as they simply can't be ignored. They have to be treated as a legitimate, serious threat once they get at someones back, or in a long game where longer range lights have the chance to shine at cleaning up, but in spite of the fact few people dedicate the time to learn how to play them, they are about right in terms of overall power level for the top tier lights.

Maybe I don't know WHY, but I DO.

Might be nice if others would, y'know, RESPOND, when I find the enemy for them without becoming casualty number one. Y'know, like when there are a couple LRM-carrying mechs within 800-ish meters, and I've got 8 or 9 different enemies under red doritos. Would be nice if someone would, y'know, OPEN F***ING FIRE on them.

You know, maybe you're right. Maybe scouting DOES suck.

Call me a sucker, then...

(Psst: I've stared down a DakkaWhale with an Arctic Cheeter and come out on top. Not the smartest thing to do, but the fact that it CAN be done despite a 70-ton deficit, attests that certain light mechs really ARE plenty powerful. Maybe even more so, when they're not played like little heavies.)

Edited by TheRAbbi, 12 October 2015 - 11:43 AM.

[JigglyMoobs]

I agree that scouting can be very powerful when the team makes use of the info. Personally I have always appreciated lights reporting back the exact disposition of the enemy team.

Would be even nicer if there was some way to make lights act as mini-UAVs and have more than just the locked mechs show up on team's radars.

Edited by JigglyMoobs, 12 October 2015 - 12:05 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

JigglyMoobs, on 12 October 2015 - 12:03 PM, said:

I agree that scouting can be very powerful when the team makes use of the info. Personally I have always appreciated lights reporting back the exact disposition of the enemy team.

Would be even nicer if there was some way to make lights act as mini-UAVs and have more than just the locked mechs show up on team's radars.

What else would you like to know? (Sorry, I know we're derailing the thread. My bad.)

[Spetulhu]

Thanks for the help. Been using Kit Foxes - which ofc are huge CTs - and right you are, movement helps a lot. Seems I'll just have to overcome the typical FPS urge to always take a shot if I can and instead focus on moving first. A little less damage done initially for a bigger payback later when I'm still alive and enemies have lost armor. Sadly I still often manage to blunder right into the sights of some sniper, but learning the maps better should help a bit there.

Off to practice then.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Spetulhu, on 11 October 2015 - 08:32 PM, said:

So what the F is up with this? I swear, 90% of deaths I suffer in Light mechs is CT destroyed with everything else looking if not fine then at least good. In the board game hits were spread out on that 2d6 table, but here it seems anyone with enough lasers can just kill in one or two alphas. No wonder there's almost always a shortage of light mechs - anyone who isn't running a Laser superspeeder is just fodder.

Not that it's much better if I pick a heavier mech. CT destroyed, game over is still by far the most common death. The only way for me to get kills and survive is to not be anywhere near the initial fight. Hey, if everyone did that there would be no fight.

My Kitfox sniper begs to differ

[Undercover Brother]

"The Target Interlocking Circuit (TIC) allows a Mechwarrior to set (increase, decrease) and reset the range of (convergence) per weapon group.

Basically, You set the convergence you want, per weapon group (so up to 6 presets) which you can also set yourself on the fly. No lag delay issues, no HSR issues, and no I'm trying to lead a target but I'm pointing at something 3,000 meters away and it's gonna mess with my aim. Nope, none of that. Adjust the range to what you want. Set. Next group, adjust, set. Next group, adjust, set. Etc." -Koniving

As Koniving was so nice to point out, weapons convergence is the key issue, even more so than just being a mediocre pilot on the receiving end. If mech weaponry is truly fixed, then the convergence point of two weapons would be at a fixed point, X meters out. On fixed weapons platforms, like ships, aircraft, and surface weapons batteries, these points could be "set" by the mechanic prior to use. A great example of this is in the movie "Pearl Harbor", when you see a few of the pilots in a hangar, adjusting the convergence of a P40's .50 caliber machine guns. The same holds true for your car's headlights (look for the long screw with a nut on it, typically on the outside corners of the headlight bezel). What the TIC, or "target interlock circuit" does is twofold. A rudimentary system would allow you to make TINY adjustments to the weapon convergence, adjusting for range to target, effectively putting "more lead on target". The second thing the TIC would do is measure the target's speed, range, and direction, as well as your own current speed and direction, to paint an idea as to where the target WILL be, and adjust weapons convergence for that. In other words, the computer will "lead" the target, and suggest where you should fire to maximize damage.

If we wanted as much realism as the developers want to claim, BOTH systems need to be implemented. Of course, those pesky lights will suddenly be "OP" again, across the board (of course, lights and mediums were all anyone outside of a government agency or large Mercedes group could afford, so the increase in lights would be more realistic too).

[Koniving]

Spetulhu, on 12 October 2015 - 12:50 PM, said:

Thanks for the help. Been using Kit Foxes - which ofc are huge CTs - and right you are, movement helps a lot. Seems I'll just have to overcome the typical FPS urge to always take a shot if I can and instead focus on moving first. A little less damage done initially for a bigger payback later when I'm still alive and enemies have lost armor. Sadly I still often manage to blunder right into the sights of some sniper, but learning the maps better should help a bit there.

Off to practice then.

The current hitboxes of the Kitfox. Yes hitting the rear of the triple AMS will hit front ST...despite it being on the arm.

Anyway, try this armor combination and remember -- Do not let ANYONE behind you and when you retreat, always run diagonally (never straight away), curving whenever they aim at you. The kitfox by design as you know is meant more for long range engagements, don't bring it to the front lines. Keep it alongside something bigger.

Now you'll feel more like a lighter medium mech.

(And yes, the cockpit armor is intended to be that light. 15 structure + 2 armor = 17; you'll survive anything short of a single AC/20; and lets face it in BT you'd get a whopping 9 armor and 3 structure [12].)

Edited by Koniving, 12 October 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Kon, I see what you're saying, but I also see all the lasers hitting the exact same spot. THAT is the problem more than reticle sway. They need to scatter independently so they cannot all hit the same point.

This is not about making it harder to aim, this is about making it impossible to stack 40, 50, 60, 70+ damage from grouped DF weapons into one point, just like missiles and LBx weapons cannot.

[mailin]

You absolutely CANNOT play a Kit Fox like a light. They are simply too slow for that. This is probably the single greatest reason you're getting cored out. Instead, stay close to your team and fire on what they fire on, or if you're daring, go on the flanks of your team and snipe the enemy, but always stay fairly close to your friendlies and be prepared to run back to their protection. Simply add your firepower, ams and ecm to that of your friendly assaults and heavies.

Edited by mailin, 12 October 2015 - 04:27 PM.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

(Or look up Spleenslitta's guide on non-meta light tactics. HE does that VERY well in a Cute Fox.)

[Tesunie]

TheRAbbi, on 12 October 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:

... and I've got 8 or 9 different enemies under red doritos. Would be nice if someone would, y'know, OPEN F***ING FIRE on them.

You do know that only the data of the mech you have targeted/locked is passed on to friendly mechs. Not all the mechs you can see. Right?

In know as an LRM user, I've been hesitent to fire from other people's locks all the time, especially if their locks prove to be unstable. If it remains stable through a few test fires, I'll start to unload onto the target with all my launchers.

Basically, press R, get a lock yourself, and then that shares it to the team for them to know about it and be able to aid you.

[Koniving]

Kjudoon, on 12 October 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

Kon, I see what you're saying, but I also see all the lasers hitting the exact same spot. THAT is the problem more than reticle sway. They need to scatter independently so they cannot all hit the same point.

This is not about making it harder to aim, this is about making it impossible to stack 40, 50, 60, 70+ damage from grouped DF weapons into one point, just like missiles and LBx weapons cannot.

(On this one: Honestly if you watch the lasers, try to imagine 6 lasers... with a moving mech [as most light mechs can only reliably use lasers] with moving sway. Between beam time and 'hobbling' or 'sway' while moving, the fact that all the lasers hit the same point doesn't matter that much. Especially when considering the enemy is moving, you are moving, etc., we're looking at 6 ML doing 30/10 = 3 damage LT, 3 damage CT, 3 damage RT, 3 damage RA, 3 damage miss, 3 damage RT, 3 damage CT, 3 damage LT, 3 damage CT, 3 damage RT
= total 6 damage LT, 9 damage CT, 9 damage RT, 3 damage RA and 3 damage miss.) And that's actually firing at a stationary enemy while running, for 24 heat.

It's pretty scattered as it is. Compare to 2 Clan ER PPCs, 20 damage localized, 5 damage Adjacent A and 5 damage Adjacent B. Need we nerf lasers any further? I wouldn't believe so. If anything the issue is that ACs are still single shot pinpoint. >.>

With this method it's very difficult to stack that kind of firepower, unless remaining perfectly stationary (and that means not even pop-and-squat, actually holding still) to aim and fire your shot for its entire duration. Otherwise, yeah fat chance of stacking that kind of firepower.

But I'm not gonna get any more off topic here.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Tesunie, on 12 October 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

You do know that only the data of the mech you have targeted/locked is passed on to friendly mechs. Not all the mechs you can see. Right?

In know as an LRM user, I've been hesitent to fire from other people's locks all the time, especially if their locks prove to be unstable. If it remains stable through a few test fires, I'll start to unload onto the target with all my launchers.

Basically, press R, get a lock yourself, and then that shares it to the team for them to know about it and be able to aid you.

Yeah, in this instance, I held on to one particular enemy assault mech that I could see was firing in the direction of the friendly team and was standing in the open, defying us to return fire. In addition to holding targeting on that one, I hit it with an improved artillery strike (in this case, rather unusually, that was a waste of C-Bills), and I urged (trying not to be a smartypants) my team to focus on that target, calling it out by call letter AND chassis AND grid location. At one point, it DID move to cover, and I changed to targeting another enemy mech standing still in the open, with ZERO overhead cover to obstruct LRMs (as with the previous one).

Specifically, I was thinking of how it would be to be the LRM boater on my team, and what I'd like/need in order to engage a non-line-of-sight enemy spotted by a scout. Like the enemy, I was in a stable position. Unlike the enemy, I had consistent line of sight on the enemy from a position that offered good cover and at least TWO avenues of egress with C&C. I didn't do that old scout trick of cycling through all the targets quickly, that everyone would know how "HOLY CRAP" this moment was for me.

I could have sat there all day, until I was the last mech on my team. Not one of them knew I was there, or if they did, not one of them reacted to my presence in any way. (I suspect the lack of LRM incoming fire led them to a feeling of safety from observation.) If not for that doggone Nova next to me, I'd have camped that spot like a champ.

Having flown LRM-heavy a time or two, and having read some good advice on the task (LOVE Catalina Steiner's guide on the topic), I try to give that opportunity to my friendly LRM mechs whenever I can. A stable, consistent spot on non-LOS enemies, and some warning when the currently-spotted target is under cover or moving out of LOS, or when I have to relocate and will be breaking contact. I WANT my team to succeed, even if it means that my mech is destroyed. I mean, we con't play games intending to LOSE, after all.

Sorry. I know who you're talking about. That's not me. It's DAMNED sure not who I was in that drop, anyhow. Such is the PUG life, I suppose...

[Tesunie]

TheRAbbi, on 12 October 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

Stuff

Just making sure. I figured you would know, as I've seen you posting too much around the forums to not know. But... it just sounded like something else. So I had to just double check is all.

[Kjudoon]

Okay Kon. Now i get you. When moving it will cause the hitscan wePons to drag if you are moving. It would be a good start for breaking up the laser vomit meta and clan autocannons but would do nothing to the gauss/ac/ppc meta. I am sure that could utilize the same tool to fix it as well.

So yes enough off topic.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Kjudoon, on 12 October 2015 - 07:58 PM, said:

Okay Kon. Now i get you. When moving it will cause the hitscan wePons to drag if you are moving. It would be a good start for breaking up the laser vomit meta and clan autocannons but would do nothing to the gauss/ac/ppc meta. I am sure that could utilize the same tool to fix it as well.

So yes enough off topic.

I'm sure it's a matter of considerable skill to be able to consistently keep lasers on target on a MOVING target while yourself being in motion. Not much opportunity to practice it, but I DO often practice firing on the stationary Testing Grounds mechs while moving, and trying to keep beams concentrated on one particular component. I've gotten a little better over the years, but DAMN that's tough to do.

Well, for me it is.

I think we're going to have to live with PPFLD weapons (IS autocannons, PPCs, Gauss) dropping a big chunk of damage on one component.

Non-instant convergence would be helpful. I mean, I see the "Pinpoint' skill in the ELITE tree for every mech, and I've never noticed ANY difference at all before and after. I assume I SHOULD. And the arguments for nerfing convergence are fair enough. Might help with the frequent-coring problem, I suppose.

Whatever. It's late. Nightynite!

[SnagaDance]

The Kitfox has the disadvantage of having a Light mech's armor and structure combined with a Medium mech's speed. (and it's pretty huge for a Light)

It does have 2 things going for it though. One, being a Clan mech means that stripped with full armor you have 14,5 tons of pod space to play around with, almost half your weight.

Second, it can take an ECM. I suggest ALWAYS taking it. Then take yourself a nice big Ballistic or Energy weapon punch. Maybe some secondary energy. And go accompany the Assaults. Stay right behind them and to the side so you can shield them and help nail anything they're shooting at. An ignored Kitfox that can line up its shots can do some big damage.

Good luck out there!

[Not A Real RAbbi]

The Cute Fox is NOT an irrelevant mech. Second best Clan light, next to the ridiculously OP Arctic Cheetah (my current favorite light). Being second place to the ACH is nothing to be ashamed of. KFX is a decent mech.