74 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

I personally think by adding even more balance variables (they're already doing it by each mech pack release) they're shooting in their foots each time.

yes and no. If IS and clan weapons were equal. And ISXL and CXL were equal. Would we still be concerned that the Jenner IIC would be better than the IS Jenner? probably not.

So PGI's #1 goal should be to balance the constituent parts of mechs (i.e. weapons/engines/etc...) rather than trying to balance the mechs themselves. Clan weapons need to be equal but different versions of IS weapons (sidegrades instead of upgrades).

In general clan weapons should have longer range but also higher heat. And they should have higher damage but also more damage spreading via beam duration/burst mechanics. So applying those concepts we can come up with a "balanced" version of the CERML and it looks something like this:

"balanced" CERML - 6 damage, 5 heat, 360m range, 1.1 beam duration, 3.0 cooldown
-vs-
ISML - 5 damage, 4 heat, 270m range, 0.9 beam duration, 3.0 cooldown

both weapons are much more equal now because every advantage the CERML has comes with an appropriate drawback.

Edited by Khobai, 12 October 2015 - 11:46 AM.

[Metus regem]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 October 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

iic will be hilarious to watch

I've got my popcorn, Gatorade and a stack of chair doughnuts for all the butthurt salty tears of rage infusing cries for nerfs that they are going to cause, its going to be great!

[Yellonet]

Scout Derek, on 12 October 2015 - 11:16 AM, said:

Mhmm, don't be so negative, think about it:

Either PGI will step up to the plate, or risk losing the player base to unbalance.

Come on, think about it, instead of this one post thing saying "Change? "

I mean Yellownet, you've only been here for a few months now, and I've seen when change has become changed.

PGI and IGP used to be in this together, but then PGI bought them out, and well, now they're gone, which, in most cases was a good change, because IGP failed on "Mechwarrior: Tactics", and the playerbase was nervous on whether they were going to do the same to MWO, but once they left, the player base was much happier, even still today some are happy about that decision PGI made, but for now, that's another discussion.

Bottom Line is, elaborate on your point of your one post "Change? " a bit more, it's too vague and it seems like you just offed the entire topic.

OK, I admit that the "Change" was a gut reaction on the thread title which implies that there is balance now, because IMO there is currently no balance worth the name.
At least not when comparing to any other MP FPS I've played.
I'd say the IIC package will only increase the advantages that the Clans enjoy, and as people swallow what we have now they'll probably gulp down what is coming as well... I hope they don't, but yeah...

[0bsidion]

Scout Derek, on 12 October 2015 - 11:28 AM, said:

To explain my viewpoint of your opinion:

The Jenner IIC will be able to go 160KPH once elited with the max engine cap of 315, that's faster than a firestarter, the Arcitc Cheetah, and most, if not all lights, save for the Commando and Locust, and on top of that, Jump Jets give it the capability to be even more maneuverable.

Hunchback IIC's hunches (Shoulder mounts) are not going to be as big as the Hunchback's hunch, and thus will have a better profile in terms when shielding a hurt side. Furthermore, the Hunchback IIC can use Jump Jets on all variants, as compared to the original. Lastly, one Variant has 4 Missile Hardpoints in all, while the most any hunchback can have is two at the most.

Orion IIC's profile may be different, as the cockpit location and torso are now significantly different.

Here's a spoiler to compare the two:

Spoiler

note that the Missile hardpoint on the Orion IIC is now in the arm, a good shield to be able to use if equipped. On top of that the Torso profile has been completely reworked, and now new hitboxes are given to it.

Lastly, the Highlander IIC will be (Like you said) not earth shattering, but still better than the original. One Variant that stands out is the Early Adopter's, with 2 UAC 10 in a arm. That means it can use the tactic of a sword and shield and thus make it effecitve in comabt.

If anything, they're a bit worrying, if not a lot.

Well, I can't argue that in some ways they will all be better than their predecessors. After all, that was the intent with regards to the lore behind them. For most of them, however, you can argue to varying degrees as to whether or not they will completely supersede what is currently available.

I do have to admit in the cases of the Jenner and Hunchback, they will be bringing some unique capabilities that are somewhat concerning, such as the aspects of the Jenner you pointed out and of course the Hunchies ability to bring dual Gauss on two shoulder mounts that will make it an intimidating hill humper. Let's not forget there are mitigating factors as well.

The Jenner for instance, despite its speed and capacity to jump like a frog on crack, is still a light, and can still be demolished by a few well placed alphas. It also still carries over the giant CT issue the IS Jenner has.

The Hunchback will be quite limited on ammo and/or will have to sacrifice speed for the scariest loadout it can bring, making it vulnerable to high speed lights, and fairly underwhelming in general once that ammo is expended.

[Scout Derek]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 October 2015 - 11:41 AM, said:

They cant get enough ppl to play test server lol

Unless they did what they did with wave 1:

Close down main server and open public server to test out for a week.

[Lykaon]

Prosperity Park, on 12 October 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Well, let's ask... How would a current Jenner work with Clan Tech weapons and engines?

A: Better.

So... Yeah, this will be interesting.

And you have nailed it yet again.

In order for the IIc mechs to not simply be a straight up upgrade thus bringing on the exstinction of Inner Sphere counterparts the IIC will need so many negative quirks that they become unfun or the Inner Sphere counterparts need so many possitive quirks that they will appear magical in compareson (like a 9ss Thunderbolt)

We can talk weapon ballance all we want but,in my opinion the largest contributer to disparity between Inner Sphere and Clan mechs on the battlefield is the XL engine.

Essentially the clans get useful XL engines with nearly no drop in durability for the mech using them while the Inner Sphere mechs equiped with XL engine have their survival dramaticly reduced.

The XL issue becomes a serious issue once we see the IIc mechs hit.The Clan Orion for example would get 9.5 tons freed up by using an XL engine without reducing it's durability significantly.Combine this with smaller and lighter weapons and 7 crit slot endo steel and we have a clan Orion with firepower rivaling 100 ton mechs with the mobility of heavy mech.

There is no way for an Inner Sphere heavy mech to achieve this level of performance.The IIc mechs are just outright superior unless we get stuck with absurd quirks.

[Yellonet]

This game seems to be about releasing new mechs that basically supersedes the older ones making it the prime reason for buying the new mechs.
So, bye bye Highlander, Orion, Hunchback and Jenner, your glory days are since long past, and now it's time to retire you completely. The Great Oblivion awaits.

[Lugh]

Juodas Varnas, on 12 October 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Nerf clan-tech until a point that IS mechs can compete without having +50% quirks on everything.
PROBLEM SOLVED

No. IS tech is fine where it is...

In fact, since I prefer to brawl I'd rather have IS large pulse lasers which are mysteriously limited to 3 for ghost heat because they are so much cooler.

Cooler means that when things get desperate, during a charge / counter to a charge, you can fire more often. Being able to fire more often with FAR quicker burn times makes IS lasers a joy to use.

The clan lasers always make me feel like they are too hot.

Lykaon, on 12 October 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

And you have nailed it yet again.

In order for the IIc mechs to not simply be a straight up upgrade thus bringing on the exstinction of Inner Sphere counterparts the IIC will need so many negative quirks that they become unfun or the Inner Sphere counterparts need so many possitive quirks that they will appear magical in compareson (like a 9ss Thunderbolt)

We can talk weapon ballance all we want but,in my opinion the largest contributer to disparity between Inner Sphere and Clan mechs on the battlefield is the XL engine.

Essentially the clans get useful XL engines with nearly no drop in durability for the mech using them while the Inner Sphere mechs equiped with XL engine have their survival dramaticly reduced.

The XL issue becomes a serious issue once we see the IIc mechs hit.The Clan Orion for example would get 9.5 tons freed up by using an XL engine without reducing it's durability significantly.Combine this with smaller and lighter weapons and 7 crit slot endo steel and we have a clan Orion with firepower rivaling 100 ton mechs with the mobility of heavy mech.

There is no way for an Inner Sphere heavy mech to achieve this level of performance.The IIc mechs are just outright superior unless we get stuck with absurd quirks.

Just wait til you see what people do with those highlanders....

[Scout Derek]

Yellonet, on 12 October 2015 - 11:57 AM, said:

OK, I admit that the "Change" was a gut reaction on the thread title which implies that there is balance now, because IMO there is currently no balance worth the name.
At least not when comparing to any other MP FPS I've played.
I'd say the IIC package will only increase the advantages that the Clans enjoy, and as people swallow what we have now they'll probably gulp down what is coming as well... I hope they don't, but yeah...

Lol, you got the title wrong.

it should mean this:

Orgins IIC will make sure that balance will be achieved because clan tech with the freedom to customize will ruin balance, which will then cause an uproar and thus PGI will get fixing to quickly, and then some.

0bsidion, on 12 October 2015 - 11:59 AM, said:

Well, I can't argue that in some ways they will all be better than their predecessors. After all, that was the intent with regards to the lore behind them. For most of them, however, you can argue to varying degrees as to whether or not they will completely supersede what is currently available.

I do have to admit in the cases of the Jenner and Hunchback, they will be bringing some unique capabilities that are somewhat concerning, such as the aspects of the Jenner you pointed out and of course the Hunchies ability to bring dual Gauss on two shoulder mounts that will make it an intimidating hill humper. Let's not forget there are mitigating factors as well.

The Jenner for instance, despite its speed and capacity to jump like a frog on crack, is still a light, and can still be demolished by a few well placed alphas. It also still carries over the giant CT issue the IS Jenner has.

The Hunchback will be quite limited on ammo and/or will have to sacrifice speed for the scariest loadout it can bring, making it vulnerable to high speed lights, and fairly underwhelming in general once that ammo is expended.

Right, however the Jenner IIC's speeds can attempt to counter that giant CT, since it's moving so quick, save for Streaks.

And you are right again on the hunchie IIC, two variants are ammo dependent, while the other two variants can survive with either no ammo or little, and only one variant will be vulnerable to fast lights.

[Scout Derek]

Lykaon, on 12 October 2015 - 12:20 PM, said:

And you have nailed it yet again.

In order for the IIc mechs to not simply be a straight up upgrade thus bringing on the exstinction of Inner Sphere counterparts the IIC will need so many negative quirks that they become unfun or the Inner Sphere counterparts need so many possitive quirks that they will appear magical in compareson (like a 9ss Thunderbolt)

We can talk weapon ballance all we want but,in my opinion the largest contributer to disparity between Inner Sphere and Clan mechs on the battlefield is the XL engine.

Essentially the clans get useful XL engines with nearly no drop in durability for the mech using them while the Inner Sphere mechs equiped with XL engine have their survival dramaticly reduced.

The XL issue becomes a serious issue once we see the IIc mechs hit.The Clan Orion for example would get 9.5 tons freed up by using an XL engine without reducing it's durability significantly.Combine this with smaller and lighter weapons and 7 crit slot endo steel and we have a clan Orion with firepower rivaling 100 ton mechs with the mobility of heavy mech.

There is no way for an Inner Sphere heavy mech to achieve this level of performance.The IIc mechs are just outright superior unless we get stuck with absurd quirks.

And you just explained what I'm afraid of.

[FupDup]

I think that people overestimate the impact of IIC mechs compared to current optimized Clan Omnimechs.

The Jenny IIC has the Arctic Cheetah to contend with. The Hunchie IIC has the Stormcrow to fight. The Orion IIC has the Hellbringer, Cauldron Born, and Timber Wolf to compete with. The Highlander IIC has to tango with the Dire Whale.

The IICs will probably be better than their IS counterparts, but they most likely will not replace the current dominant Omnimechs.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

well, the new packs comes a little OP.. so people wanna buy... and this....

[CtrlAltWheee]

+1 that clan tech can be balanced. Mcgral's balance post is a great place to start.

With regards to the IIC mechs, between torso twist range, twist speed, durability quirks, acceleration quirks, I think the tools are there to balance them.

The bigger issue is needing to balance and implement several systems simultaneously: ECM, LRMs, ams. I think they'll need to launch a rebalance all at once.

With respect, I think ecm/lrms can be re-introduced smoothly using ideas already on the forums.

[Golden Vulf]

Well, Inner Sphere players always ignore their ability to customize engine size as a benefit when peeing their pants and QQ about OP clan mechs.

Orion IIC, can be a slower Timberwolf with more guns. Part of what makes the TBR boss is the speed, the Orion caps out at a 360 engine. And the Omni Timberwolf has better hard points than any of the Orion chassis.

The Jenner IIC doesn't have ECM and none of the variants have torso mounted energy slots. It has potential to be great, but it won't become the default light.

The Hunchback IIC, again, will be a less armored, and slower than the Stormcrow. The Stormcrow is already nearly optimal. If you want to haul around some heavy weaponry while sticking with the heavier mechs it will be a decent choice, but it won't be the flanker the Stormcrow is.

The Highlander IIC will be the 2nd slowest clan Assault, but with nowhere near the hard points of the Dire Wolf. It can not participate in the laser vomit meta, and none of the variants can take dual gauss. The Executioner already invalidated the Gargoyle. The Highlander IIC is going to be the clan Highlander!

Please don't get your panties in a bunch people, there are no clan gamechangers until the Kodiak.

That 4th variant of the HGN IIC with the double UAC/10s looks pretty boss. But keep in mind there are no omnipods on these things, that double ballistic arm can not be put on any of the other Highlanders. If people want the 30% bonus from their (O) variants, they'll be stuck with the default hard points.

Edited by Golden Vulf, 12 October 2015 - 01:48 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Yellonet, on 12 October 2015 - 12:26 PM, said:

This game seems to be about releasing new mechs that basically supersedes the older ones making it the prime reason for buying the new mechs.

Im lookin at you Shadowhawk - sez the Hunchback

Metus regem, on 12 October 2015 - 11:47 AM, said:

I've got my popcorn, Gatorade and a stack of chair doughnuts for all the butthurt salty tears of rage infusing cries for nerfs that they are going to cause, its going to be great!

I remember how they said we could never have true double heat sinks cause "6 second Jenner"

what about when this hits? Lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 12 October 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Mcgral18]

While MRM80 Atlai would be amusing...I'm not sure I want to balance things that way.
The tech is still inferior to the Clan stuff, some significantly.


Quirks have a large part to play as well, but the most recent PTS made me cringe. Currently, the Hunch 4J is an LRM60 (3x RoF) and will out-Lurm the 4M Hunch IIC.
SRM one is just barely over double RoF, so cannot quite compare, and too hot to do much with 5 lasers. More durable due to quirks and STD, but VS cXL and JJs, not worth it.


I don't see the Jenner beating the Hankyu, far too fragile in comparison. Sure, it can cool better, but when you have so much less effective armor and weaker legs, it makes no difference.

Orion and HGN can't compare to the God Tier Omnis.



As for getting PTS population, give rewards like an event.

Play 20 matches with a match score of 100 (that's 200 damage) and get a Mechbay, or 500MC, or a day of Premium.

Or all of the above, spread across 5-10-15-20 matches.


Also give double Cbills from the PTS matches onto your live account. That's along with giving everyone 50 000MC and a billion Cbills; 280% Cbill earnings if they want to try that new hero and buy Premium time using the given MC.

You'll get the Space Poor population flooding the PTS servers.
Whether they're able to do that...I don't see why not. Grab the data at the end of the session and plug it in?
At the very least, event like rewards shouldn't be hard to implement.

Edited by Mcgral18, 12 October 2015 - 02:05 PM.

[Fate 6]

This thread is new and different. Why do we need a new thread every time a forum warrior has a thought?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Fate 6, on 12 October 2015 - 02:06 PM, said:

This thread is new and different. Why do we need a new thread every time a forum warrior has a thought?

Thats what the duty entails

[FupDup]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 12 October 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

Thats what the duty entails

The Mantle of the Forumwarrior™ is a heavy burden to bear.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

And yes, I said duty in the hopes someone would later go "ooo he said duty" lol