135 replies to this topic

[Murphy7]

OP sounds like too much crying for me.

Try running around in lights for a while - hitscan laser vomit meta wrecks lights just fine - the light mech needs to either rapidly deliver its damage and get gone before it is destroyed, or peek&poke from long range and keep moving lest people actually pay attention and kill it.

Maybe it's my tier, maybe it's me - but lights feel plenty fragile to pilot or to shoot at.

Or maybe it's you - a lot of what you want from light involves them supporting someone else' LRM delivery - LRM much brah?

[Lugh]

John1352, on 12 October 2015 - 05:11 PM, said:

As a light pilot, I'd say that you have missed the point.

1. Holding a target lock is a perfect way to receive a giant alpha strike that kills you twice over. UAVs = losing C-Bills, in a game where the point is kind of to make them.

2. NARC pays nothing most of the time, even if it wins the game.

3. TAG lasers should be used by the LRM boat to improve performance in LOS.

4. A single AMS will render a LRM5 unable to deal damage. Need to boat LRMs to get them through the AMS.

5. I actually do use mixed lasers sometimes, but most of the time it's better to boat, just like on a heavier mech.

1. There is nothing saying you have to sit and take alphas to retain a lock. Do so when it's safe don't when it's not. Not rocket science. UAVs not making you money? You are playing them at the wrong time in the wrong place.
They mostly MAKE money when placed and lighting up a whole murder ball. Even if they only last through one rotation. If they make it through several spotting bonuses? Ka-ching. And if people shoot the highlighted mechs while the UAV is up? Ka-ching again.

2. Narc has been a waste since before MWO was a thing.

3. Tag lasers might be useful to scouts if anyone was running lrms. ....

4. Aw too bad Run 10s ..

5. Generalists are fun but less efficient. Carrying > Fun for some people.

[Beartech]

Lights are way too resilient and need to have their hit boxes and lag shield removed. Soooooooo tired of reading light pilots cry, "but I have to get close". Please like that's hard when you move at 100+. The other thing g I read all the time is, "we're harassers'. Right, should look up what that word means. If you played TT or read the books lights needed to pack hunt to take down a heavy or assault. As it stands now a single light can just run in a circle around most assaults and gib them solo.

If pgi makes it so 7+ lasers don't hit the same hit box like a sniper rifle then maybe us assault pilots wouldn't cry for Nerf's. Assaults cannot do what they were Made to do. Which was take a big hit and be the center of a Lance.

One little ugly truth lights don't like to hear is, when your running at 100+ sure there was a to hit penalty for the enemy, but you also suffered a nasty gunnery skill penalty because you are moving so fast.

Edited by Beartech, 13 October 2015 - 05:30 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Beartech, on 13 October 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

One little ugly truth lights don't like to hear is, when your running at 100+ sure there was a to hit penalty for the enemy, but you also suffered a nasty gunnery skill penalty because you are moving so fast.

You mean aiming while moving at 100+?

Yeah. That's our gunnery penalty. We keep lasers on track of one component while doing our best to not have yours track ours.

Same way your TT Assault pilot can miss at close range, with both mechs standing still.

"GUNNERY PENALTY."

[Hotthedd]

Khobai, on 12 October 2015 - 06:50 PM, said:

Thats true. Except in tabletop, when a light got in your rear arc and fired, all its weapons didnt hit your rear center torso; Instead, they got split up between arms, legs, right torso, left torso, center torso, etc... because battletech had random hit locations.

The problem is the same problem its always been: convergence. It should not be possible for ANY mech to vomit all its weapons into one location. PGI has repeatedly failed to address convergence and balance has only gotten worse because of it.

Initially, beam duration on lasers did somewhat solve this problem, at least until clan weapons came out. The CSPL has such short beam duration that putting all 6 damage in one location has again become too easy.

This.

Perfect convergence is the double-edged sword that allows 30T and 35T 'mechs to take out Assaults by coring their rear CT, and simultaneously the reason that any light is never more than one click away from instant death by ANY other 'mech on the battlefield.

Of all of the broken mechanics in this game (Heat scale, Lock-on weapons/ECM, etc.) the ability to reliably land multiple shots on one location with one click is the mother of them all.

[Screech]

With a few exceptions any pilot who does well in a light will do better in a heavy. If you get killed by a light you either were wolf-packed or killed by a better pilot.

[Davers]

The Atlas Overlord, on 12 October 2015 - 09:18 PM, said:

1) Better not change anything, or we might get a game with some depth.

2) Gimping assault mechs into uselessness isn't "light mechs pulling their weight"



Of course not, Halo with mechs is great right?

Assault mechs are not useless, and it is usually an assault mech who gets the highest scores. Meanwhile light mechs who make a single mistake can be wiped out from any angle (not just the back).

Homeskilit, on 12 October 2015 - 09:24 PM, said:

Weapons do need to be balanced and they do go hand in hand but if all the mechs were equal what is the point in having mechs of different masses?


Your approach is backwards, if all we have is mech killers, they need to make more roles viable not make every mech fit that role.


Your right it is not, but it should have been because then protecting your assaults and organizing your team to take out theirs would be important.

Mechs of different masses might mean different playstyles, not different levels of effectiveness.

Making other roles viable basically means waiting for MWO2. It would be a major revision of almost every core concept and game mechanic. Please continue to argue for it, but accept that it is unlikely to happen.

[Mystere]

Jazzbandit1313, on 12 October 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

Light piloting has become a cesspool of high alpha, low heat, fast fire rate, god hitbox mechs that will take out your rear torso in two shots. It's especially insulting when you're zoomed in and the rear damage indicator decides not to work for the moment, then you die. I am SO sick and tired of dealing with peekaboo lights that alpha torsos off in three volleys, while you desperately try to hit them in their almost non-existent legs or CT from mid range.

You don't want to be shot in the back? Then ask your teammate to cover it. They don't want to? Then I am perfectly sure a building or giant rock will not complain.

Jazzbandit1313, on 12 October 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

And no, it's not that I can't hit lights. I didn't get to tier two with bad aim now did I? Yes, I've taken down my fare share of Cheetas and FS9's with assaults and heavies, but the variety of their builds is starting to dwindle. Lights aren't supposed to take as much time, armor, and damage as an assault.

Oh my! You had to go there? What assurance do we have you did not get there by riding on the coattails of your teammates?

Why are lights again at 15% or much less in the solo queue?

How about this? Let's make all assaults blind (i.e. need a red dorito to be able to fire), all heavies half blind (i.e. reduced eye visibility to 300m), mediums require nothing, and only lights get all of the sensors and ECM. I'm sure you'd be agreeable to that. Right?

Troutmonkey, on 12 October 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

Man, maybe I should quit MWO every time my Jenner get's insta-correct by Dual Gauss Dual CERPPC dires from a kilometer away.

Nah! Let's just nerf all lights into then ground. Then let's just make 3/3/3/3 a hard requirement with no release valves whatsoever. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

Do you want to bring out your assaults and heavies? Prepare to wait for a very long time until a light shows up.

Let's see how these drivers of fatties love that.

Endost33L, on 12 October 2015 - 07:21 PM, said:

I never wrote anything about changing game mechanics, where did you find that, i just stated that some light mechs need balancing.

And by "balancing" you actually meant "nerfing", in spite of what "careful" words you used. Right?

Edited by Mystere, 13 October 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[Sethliopod]

When piloting a light, Piranha's end-game rewards remind me that I am driving a sub-par mech.

If I actually went for mission goals (assault, conquest) I am also slapped squarely in the face, to be sure I got the message.

Edited by Sethliopod, 13 October 2015 - 08:07 AM.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

It's truly amazing that, after having it pointed out multiple times in great detail that not all light 'Mechs are scouts, and that in fact most of the lights we have in MWO were designed in-lore for the sole purpose of putting very large holes in other 'Mechs (actually, there are about as many medium scouts in BT as there are light scouts, and mediums often made better scouts because they could mount the necessary hardware and still have tonnage... for a viable weapon load)...

And yet so many people are still harping on the "role warfare! Lights shouldn't be able to kill assaults!" stinkpile.

It's almost as though they're just clinging to the only excuse they can find to nerf the viability right out of the one type of opponent that consistently gives them trouble, and just flat out ignoring lore and balance concerns when those disagree with their vision of how the game should be played.

Meanwhile, the international light 'Mech conspiracy has elected to keep our numbers low so our plan to take over the game and ruin fatty drivers' fun won't be discovered! But now that you caught us, we acknowledge that you are the rightful masters of 'Mech warfare. We're so sorry.

[CDLord HHGD]

Jazzbandit1313, on 12 October 2015 - 04:57 PM, said:

List of very legit concerns.

Possibly the answer to your everything

[Spleenslitta]

Homeskilit, on 12 October 2015 - 11:45 PM, said:

I build my mechs similar to what you describe here, meta be damned!

Yup. The thing is that so many players look at my weird builds/tactics and say it sucks without even thinking that i might be having success with it.
If i say: But i have achieved success with it and i do 400-600 damage in good matches. My highest damage comes close to the 1K mark while i do this in a KFX.
My average damage per match is 313 after i divide my total damage done over 1246 matches in my KFX-C.

They reply with stuff like this if i show them results even if i give them screenshots as proof.
- I'll bet your opponents were all tier 5 newbies.
- You only manage to do this once every 10000 matches and you probably only do 50 damage per match as an average.
- If you meet a FS with 8 SPL's you die fast. This part is mostly true actually unless the FS is damaged so my MG's can crush his engine or it's a hot map.

Fact is that most players only look at damage numbers, range, pinpoint damage, weapon quirks and heat efficiency when they build their mechs.
Most players think that if they do not succeed with a build/tactic then it's plain impossible no matter what proof is put in front of them.
Once they say something it must be right even if they are proven clearly wrong. It's like they are infallible, completly flawless and their word is the LAW.
I regret the fact that i never record my matches....might have to give it a go.

But i figure their response will be something along these lines if i do make a video.
- You take such a long time to do damage and it's scattered across different mechs and bodyparts. I always hit what i aim at without any problem.
- You didn't do enough damage and you were slow doing it...I can do 1500 damage in my sleep.
- The enemy team was full of losers.

Starting to think i should cut off one of my hands so i can go to tier 5.

[Khobai]

Quote

hit someone with a narc = 30% of damage done from incoming LRMS should go to the person who fired the narc.......that would make it better. Maybe do something similar with TAG.

um why? all you did was hit someone with a narc. why should that entitle you to 30% of someones damage?

maybe 10%. 10% is a standard finders fee and thats basically what narc is.

Quote

This.

Perfect convergence is the double-edged sword that allows 30T and 35T 'mechs to take out Assaults by coring their rear CT, and simultaneously the reason that any light is never more than one click away from instant death by ANY other 'mech on the battlefield.

Of all of the broken mechanics in this game (Heat scale, Lock-on weapons/ECM, etc.) the ability to reliably land multiple shots on one location with one click is the mother of them all.

Yes. Nobody would even bring up lights being overpowered if convergence didnt exist. Not that I think lights themselves are overpowered, but I do think the combination of backstrikes and convergence are overpowered. Convergence is definitely something that needs to be dealt with before it gets any worse.

Quote

Your approach is backwards, if all we have is mech killers, they need to make more roles viable not make every mech fit that role.

I agree that the game needs other roles.

But it order to incorporate new roles we need new gamemodes. As long as killing the enemy team is the best way to win every single gamemode then having non-combat roles is NEVER going to work.


What we need is a ticket based gamemode. Each team gets say 8000 tickets. And whenever a mech dies its team loses tickets equal to the mechs tonnage. What that does is penalize lights less than heavies/assaults for dying. You get to respawn as many times as you want the only catch is your team loses tickets each time you respawn. That takes emphasis off killing the other team as the main objective but still makes getting kills important enough that you dont want to repeatedly die.

There would also be 3-5 objectives spread out across the map. Objectives would be captured just like conquest points. And each objective your team controls would bleed tickets at a rate of 1/second from the enemy team. Additionally the objectives could have a secondary function like being ammocaches, repair bays, satillite uplinks, aerotech bases, artillery batteries, etc... to prevent abuse, using the repair bay should cost tickets, but it would cost about half as many tickets to repair, than if your mech died.

Lastly each team would have a destroyable base and if your base is destroyed you lose instantly. That would give teams that fall behind in tickets a way of still winning and causing an upset. It would also help make things like scouting more relevant because you'd constantly need to know if the enemy team is grouping up to hit your base or not.

a ticket based gamemode has so many obvious advantages...
1) TTK matters less because you get to respawn
2) lights matter more because they cost less tickets when they die
3) deathballing is less important because players dont need to clump together to improve survivability
4) split-up objectives also help eliminate deathballing by forcing teams split up to capture/hold objectives
5) dying matters less so players have more freedom to play how they want without having to worry about their death dragging down the team
6) other roles like command and support could actually have a place in a ticket based gamemode because the overall gamemode would be more strategic in nature rather than tactical.

Edited by Khobai, 13 October 2015 - 11:56 AM.

[Yanlowen Cage]

Maybe small lasers are op????

[Khobai]

Quote

Maybe small lasers are op????

pretty much every type of clan laser that can be boated and converge on a single point is op.

[CDLord HHGD]

Khobai, on 13 October 2015 - 01:05 PM, said:

pretty much every type of clan laser that can be boated and converge on a single point is op.

FTFY

They being Clan exacerbates the issue, BUT all lasers are OP.

[FupDup]

cdlord, on 13 October 2015 - 01:14 PM, said:

FTFY
They being Clan exacerbates the issue, BUT all lasers are OP.

Go equip some Inner Sphere Small Lasers on a mech sometime, and fire them.

Get back to me with how "OP" they are.

[CDLord HHGD]

FupDup, on 13 October 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

Go equip some Inner Sphere Small Lasers on a mech sometime, and fire them.

Get back to me with how "OP" they are.

Shocker, I have. On my Firebrand and on my Jenner. Their cycle rate and heat make them overall more damaging than the same number of medium lasers when you equip 5 or more. At least, back when I used them in like....early 2014.... Haven't used my Jenners in quite a while and I currently have a Rifleman loadout on my Firebrand.

[Khobai]

to clarify, some of the IS lasers are indeed overpowered with the right quirks...

but the clan lasers are overpowered even without quirks.

[PurpleNinja]

How many threatening UrbanMechs have you seen?
That's your answer.