72 replies to this topic

[Sarlic]

Don't give them much attention.

But i agree. Some clan tears rolled on some cheeks from that laser nerf for example as far complaining goes.

Edited by Sarlic, 14 October 2015 - 12:04 AM.

[STEF_]

I think this will bring:

1) ecm, ecm everywhere to reduce dmg.

2) even more brawl and deathball than now., 'cause you can do full dmg.

3) now target aquisition rates and sensor ranges have a sense.

4) reduced ranges for clam..... have I said "brawl, brawl everywhere"?



oh, well.... being a brawler I'm ok with that

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 14 October 2015 - 12:07 AM.

[Speedy Plysitkos]

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 October 2015 - 12:06 AM, said:

I think this will bring:

1) ecm, ecm everywhere to reduce dmg.

2) even more brawl and deathball than now., 'cause you can do full dmg.

3) now target aquisition rates and sensor ranges have a sense.

4) reduced ranges for clam..... have I said "brawl, brawl everywhere"?



oh, well.... being a brawler I'm ok with that

brawlers is best, but they (clammers) will moount more gauss+ppc sh**....

[Wintersdark]

Illya Arkhipova, on 13 October 2015 - 09:00 PM, said:

the question is.... if they nerf the ranges (and honestly make them more Clan like, according to Randall Bills) will they likewise shorten the duration. Because I freely admit, shorter range with the same duration on Clan ERLL will be their deathknell.

Well, keep in mind the Clan ERLL, with (lets be generous and assume they meant (optimal + (max-optimal)*0.6) not just (max*.6), so the cERLL is still longer range than the IS LL.

In that world, the Clan ER weapons have a shorter range than the IS ER weapons; however they do more damage out to a further optimal range - 740m vs. 675. They are also 2 tons lighter, and a slot smaller.


When all is said and done, on a pure stat viewpoint, if the weapons are to be balanced the clan weapons have to actually be worse than IS weapons to counter the size difference - this is what you've maintained re: Goose Waffles, correct?


I'm not saying things are raisins and sunshine here - I still think the whole clan laser nerf is baffling. But.... I dunno, maybe not extremely bad.

The problem we've got right now, before the PTS is up, is that their explanation is horribly vague. I still fully expect to see cERLL's doing 0 damage at 889m >.<

Sarlic, on 14 October 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

Don't give them much attention.

But i agree. Some clan tears rolled on some cheeks from that laser nerf for example as far complaining goes.

But the ECM!

Even as an ostensibly Clan player... Oh, for those ECM changes, I'll take anything, and I'll like it. For real.

I've wanted a functional change to the mechanics of ECM, not just ranges, for... well, as long as we've had ECM.

[Sarlic]

I agree.

The ECM changes is better then doing nothing i suppose. Atleast the magic bubble jesus wtf bbq box is gone.

[Widowmaker1981]

Is no one seeing the extreme balance issue rearing its head with these changes?

ECM change to remove stealth bubble is going to reduce the effect ECM has on the game overall, sure - and thats a good thing. However, when you then tie laser damage to targeting like they are, having that ECM stealth becomes hugely more valuable. So now having ECM stealth is more valuable than it is now, and the only way to get it is to run an ECM mech = ECM mechs become the last word in mechs. Bring ECM or go home. If its a clan heavy and its not a Hellbringer, its the WONG **** HING MECH.

[sycocys]

"I'm going to have to fire my ER lasers which out range everyone else in their optimal range where they might be able to see more than a shadow of me? - F that."

XD

Come on people. We want a game that's more than CoD Mech edition, if the players are going to continue to refuse to change their play styles to make it so - then some things need to change at the game mechanics level.

[STEF_]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

Is no one seeing the extreme balance issue rearing its head with these changes?

ECM change to remove stealth bubble is going to reduce the effect ECM has on the game overall, sure - and thats a good thing. However, when you then tie laser damage to targeting like they are, having that ECM stealth becomes hugely more valuable. So now having ECM stealth is more valuable than it is now, and the only way to get it is to run an ECM mech = ECM mechs become the last word in mechs. Bring ECM or go home. If its a clan heavy and its not a Hellbringer, its the WONG **** HING MECH.

First thing I thought!

[Elizander]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 13 October 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

PTS is a joke, the population cannot support it, and the results are inconclusive. PGI needs to nut-up and balance production instead of PTS and Squirrel server.
Yes there will be fallout, yes additional changes will be required, but it won't be any worse than what we have.

The PTS can work very well, if PGI allows matches of 2v2+ to start instead of waiting for 24 people.

[STEF_]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

Is no one seeing the extreme balance issue rearing its head with these changes?

ECM change to remove stealth bubble is going to reduce the effect ECM has on the game overall, sure - and thats a good thing. However, when you then tie laser damage to targeting like they are, having that ECM stealth becomes hugely more valuable. So now having ECM stealth is more valuable than it is now, and the only way to get it is to run an ECM mech = ECM mechs become the last word in mechs. Bring ECM or go home. If its a clan heavy and its not a Hellbringer, its the WONG **** HING MECH.

Also, gauss is been the best weapon in the game untill now....and now it will be even better!
(bring gauss or go home)

[TexAce]

I will neither bring gauss nor ECM and I know I will be pretty fine.

[Widowmaker1981]

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 October 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

Also, gauss is been the best weapon in the game untill now....and now it will be even better!
(bring gauss or go home)

Well, thats guass + lasers really, due to how well they synergise, so not really. Weapon i see gaining the most in this is the PPC, which needs it.

[BattleBunny]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

Is no one seeing the extreme balance issue rearing its head with these changes?

ECM change to remove stealth bubble is going to reduce the effect ECM has on the game overall, sure - and thats a good thing. However, when you then tie laser damage to targeting like they are, having that ECM stealth becomes hugely more valuable. So now having ECM stealth is more valuable than it is now, and the only way to get it is to run an ECM mech = ECM mechs become the last word in mechs. Bring ECM or go home. If its a clan heavy and its not a Hellbringer, its the WONG **** HING MECH.

Yeh my thoughts as well. Assuming the damage drop-of is significant on untargeted mechs ECM will be even more useful then it is now. And is the damage dropoff for those lasers only beyond their optimal range or an overal dropof on any untargeted mech regardless of distance?

If ravens now have to stare at their opponents to actually do damage...well..

[Wintersdark]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

Is no one seeing the extreme balance issue rearing its head with these changes?

ECM change to remove stealth bubble is going to reduce the effect ECM has on the game overall, sure - and thats a good thing. However, when you then tie laser damage to targeting like they are, having that ECM stealth becomes hugely more valuable. So now having ECM stealth is more valuable than it is now, and the only way to get it is to run an ECM mech = ECM mechs become the last word in mechs. Bring ECM or go home. If its a clan heavy and its not a Hellbringer, its the WONG **** HING MECH.

Why? ECM doesn't stop targeting at all under the new system. Bring all the ECM you want, people can still target you and thus still do full laser damage.

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 October 2015 - 02:42 AM, said:

First thing I thought!

Why? How does ECM help with that? You can target mechs just fine through ECM under the new system.

[Widowmaker1981]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2015 - 03:42 AM, said:

Why? ECM doesn't stop targeting at all under the new system. Bring all the ECM you want, people can still target you and thus still do full laser damage.


Why? How does ECM help with that? You can target mechs just fine through ECM under the new system.

You're right - i misread it and thought that ECM mechs themselves would still get the invisibility, just without it being porjected by bubble.
New correction = ECM is pointless for anything bigger than a small medium. It will only protect you from LRMs and Streaks now (no dorito denial). LRMs are ****, because you can train them into hills and buildings easily, and streaks are a non factor when you're not a tiny mech. Would literally sell all my Shadow Cats instantly, because the only thing they have going for them is ECM dorito denial meaning they dont get shot at, and can therefore be an effective sniper.

Unless they are saying to have to wait for Target INFO for lasers to do full damage? In which case, just screw lasers. you simply CANNOT wait 2-3 seconds before you fire. Just bring other weapons. I assume(d) that you just have to target the mech to get full dmg, which wont be affected at all by ECM (i.e. instantly, 0.0 second after pressing R) - Edit: i mean Clan lasers. IS lasers will still do full dmg at optimal range x 1.2 regardless, and you shouldn't be firing further out than that anyway.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 14 October 2015 - 04:03 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 03:58 AM, said:

You're right - i misread it and thought that ECM mechs themselves would still get the invisibility, just without it being porjected by bubble.
New correction = ECM is pointless for anything bigger than a small medium. It will only protect you from LRMs and Streaks now (no dorito denial). LRMs are ****, because you can train them into hills and buildings easily, and streaks are a non factor when you're not a tiny mech. Would literally sell all my Shadow Cats instantly, because the only thing they have going for them is ECM dorito denial meaning they dont get shot at, and can therefore be an effective sniper.

Unless they are saying to have to wait for Target INFO for lasers to do full damage? In which case, just screw lasers. you simply CANNOT wait 2-3 seconds before you fire. Just bring other weapons. I assume(d) that you just have to target the mech to get full dmg, which wont be affected at all by ECM (i.e. instantly, 0.0 second after pressing R)

Nope, just targeting. Lasers do full damage then pretty much all the time (relative to what they'd normally do), unless you're at extreme range and there's nobody closer to target.

For example, Assaults and Heavies have laser ranges extending past their sensor range by a fair distance. If there's nobody closer (or a light nearby relaying targeting data) then they'll do reduced damage.

LRM's are still kinda ****, but less than they were. Sure, you can train them into hills and whatnot, but on the other hand you can always target and lock people that someone has LOS to. Lock speed varies dramatically, and ECM slows it substantially, but because it's very hard to break missile locks now with ECM being useless for that, I predict you'll see more useful LRM support.

Basically, the removal of ECM as a hard counter and thus the total unreliability of LRM's makes them a far more usable weapon system.

Streaks... ECM will be very good for lights vs. streaks, as you lose missile lock when they move out of LOS, and the ECM-delay in getting new missile locks will mean without [C/B]AP you'll be basically unable to get a SSRM missile lock on a light in close proximity.

Still, ECM isn't pointless on bigger mechs; it's just not a Jesus Box anymore. It'll still slow missile locks(they said 3 seconds? ), which can make all the difference.

But now, ECM isn't something you always take when you can, and something that makes a given mech objectively better than everything else in it's class.

Seems fair, as it's only 1-1.5t.

[Widowmaker1981]

Wintersdark, on 14 October 2015 - 04:07 AM, said:

Nope, just targeting. Lasers do full damage then pretty much all the time (relative to what they'd normally do), unless you're at extreme range and there's nobody closer to target.

For example, Assaults and Heavies have laser ranges extending past their sensor range by a fair distance. If there's nobody closer (or a light nearby relaying targeting data) then they'll do reduced damage.

LRM's are still kinda ****, but less than they were. Sure, you can train them into hills and whatnot, but on the other hand you can always target and lock people that someone has LOS to. Lock speed varies dramatically, and ECM slows it substantially, but because it's very hard to break missile locks now with ECM being useless for that, I predict you'll see more useful LRM support.

Basically, the removal of ECM as a hard counter and thus the total unreliability of LRM's makes them a far more usable weapon system.

Streaks... ECM will be very good for lights vs. streaks, as you lose missile lock when they move out of LOS, and the ECM-delay in getting new missile locks will mean without [C/B]AP you'll be basically unable to get a SSRM missile lock on a light in close proximity.

The nerf to ECM is too severe imo. It will quite literally be better and more useful to bring a BAP/CAP than ECM, because all ECM will do is provide a small layer of protection against two completely crap weapon systems - if this change goes through they should remove ECM hardpoints and allow any mech to bring it. Most wont.

For higher end play, ECMs only valuable function is dorito denial for spotting and target info purposes. Its incredibly valuable, so people bring it, but take the dorito denial away and its a non item.

edit: I dont play lights really, im an assault/heavy jock at heart so im looking at this from that perspective.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 14 October 2015 - 04:15 AM.

[Rushin Roulette]

The way I see it;
we have the regular Internet


The PGI forums after a proposed change


Players ingame after a change has gone live

[STEF_]

Widowmaker1981, on 14 October 2015 - 02:58 AM, said:

Well, thats guass + lasers really, due to how well they synergise, so not really. Weapon i see gaining the most in this is the PPC, which needs it.

But gauss will give its 15 dmg regardless ecm/radar range/lock; due to laser nerf, it will become even more important.
And PPC, of course.

I can foresee this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...40835df1c55eb9f



edit: wait..... ECM doesn't prevent lock at long distance anymore?

I must read better the notes....

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 14 October 2015 - 04:19 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Stefka Kerensky, on 14 October 2015 - 04:15 AM, said:

But gauss will give its 15 dmg regardless ecm/radar range/lock; due to laser nerf, it will become even more important.
And PPC, of course.

I can foresee this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...40835df1c55eb9f

Nope, i was wrong about ECM - it wont even give the carrying mech dorito denial, so Hellbringers are just inferior ebon jags with less tonnage.