51 replies to this topic

[JernauM]

Khobai, on 14 October 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

You cant play the game without ever getting seen or shot at by anyone. What a ludicrous assertion. Getting shot at in MWO is inevitable and unavoidable.

I did not make that claim, so let's dispense with this straw man right away.

Khobai, on 14 October 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

Besides you only need to expose your mech to ONE enemy to suffer massive damage. The alphas are 50-70 damage.

If you are regularly on the receiving end of 50+ damage alphas, I suggest you reevaluate your tactics and positioning. Or at least work on spreading the damage across multiple components where possible.

Khobai, on 14 October 2015 - 01:51 PM, said:

I recommend you go play medium mechs then come back here and tell me TTK is fine.

Over a quarter of the 4,000+ matches I have played were in medium mechs, both IS and Clan.

[Khobai]

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I did not make that claim, so let's dispense with this straw man right away.

That is basically what you said. I paraphrased. And now youre trying to deflect it as a straw man argument because I called you on your BS.

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If you are regularly on the receiving end of 50+ damage alphas, I suggest you reevaluate your tactics and positioning. Or at least work on spreading the damage across multiple components where possible.

There you go claiming you can play without getting hit again. Which is hilarious since you just denied making that claim.

Most of the time im on the delivery end of 50-70 damage alphas. Which is why I know how easy they are to pull off. Especially with dual gauss which is entirely frontloaded damage and large pulse lasers which have absurdly short beam duration for how much damage they do. Its very difficult to spread that damage out effectively because its all frontloaded or short duration beam weapons.

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Over a quarter of the 4,000+ matches I have played were in medium mechs, both IS and Clan.

I have no real interest in getting in a pissing match over games played. But Ive played more games in medium mechs alone than youve played games in total. So youll just have to trust me when I say TTK is way too low on medium mechs right now (hell its way too low for assault mechs also).

And it seems most other people in the topic agree with me. TTK is way too short and definitely needs to be addressed as a serious issue at some point during the rebalancing. The last thing most of us want is MWO to become call of duty with mechs.

Edited by Khobai, 15 October 2015 - 12:29 AM.

[JernauM]

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

That is basically what you said. I paraphrased. And now youre trying to deflect it as a straw man argument because I called you on your BS.

There you go claiming you can play without getting hit again. Which is hilarious since you just denied making that claim.

Incorrect. I specifically stated that TTK is only low if a pilot makes a mistake. I did not claim that it is reasonable to avoid any damage, or even significant damage, in the course of a match.

When I commit a piloting error, such as exposing my mech to fire from multiple alert enemies, I am quickly punished with substantial damage and my match may be over quickly. In that sense I have experienced low TTK. When I make the right piloting decisions, I am generally able to survive to the end of the match while still contributing my fair share or more to the team. In those instances, I did not experience low TTK.

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

I have no real interest in getting in a pissing match over games played. But Ive played more games in medium mechs alone than youve played games in total. So youll just have to trust me when I say TTK is way too low on medium mechs right now (hell its way too low for assault mechs also).

I agree that a comparison of the number of matches played is not helpful. I only mentioned how many I have played because you brought it up. I feel comfortable that my experience with MWO is adequate to draw reasonably reliable conclusions.

[Firelizard]

50 50, on 14 October 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

Completely agree with Jabilac.
It was spelt out pretty clearly and repeated several times what the objectives of this test run are, the points they were looking for feedback on and that this is a small section of the changes which are in no way final or complete.
Posting about something that is not in the scope for testing is irrelevant.
It's like going to a car yard, asking to test drive a minivan, then saying it's not right it should handle like a motorbike.

I'm sorry, this viewpoint is completely logical and well thought out, and has no place in an MMO forum.
Please surrender your mouse and exit to the left.

[Outlaw]

There is one thing that could be considered to at least reduce the TTK and it has been something I had wished they would go back to since they launched 12-man drops. Go back to 8-man drops. I had way more fun during the days of 8-man drops than I have ever had more recently. Plus you get a positive side-effect of reduced wait times between matches.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Heat is still the way to go, but it's not ghost heat we need.

We need to let put thresholds on the heat cap so that X amount of heat causes shutdown and Y amount of heat causes insta-splosion death!

Even. On. The. First. Alpha!

If this was the case, people WOULD chain fire. If heat were ratio-linked to damage and range we might even see balance in the Techline lasers (since Clans would be so damn hot and IS would be comfortably warm).

[Livewyr]

JernauM, on 14 October 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

TTK is only low if you make a mistake by exposing your mech in view of multiple enemies, standing still in view of enemy mechs, failing to spread damage, failing to maintain situation awareness, or committing other such pilot errors.

So, say a Shadowcat ends up within 300 meters of a 10 laser SCR. (City map)

He's dead, naturally. (Cannot outrun, not much armor, little firepower) What mistake did he make?

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Ooo, I'm going to hop with JernauM on this one.

Khobai, on 15 October 2015 - 12:24 AM, said:

I have no real interest in getting in a pissing match over games played. But Ive played more games in medium mechs alone than youve played games in total. So youll just have to trust me when I say TTK is way too low on medium mechs right now (hell its way too low for assault mechs also).

And it seems most other people in the topic agree with me. TTK is way too short and definitely needs to be addressed as a serious issue at some point during the rebalancing. The last thing most of us want is MWO to become call of duty with mechs.

Aha! he may not be experienced in mediums, but I am, and I can tell you, TTK is not that bad in mediums. Hell I think it's better in mediums than it is in Assaults if you are piloting right. I pilot a Nova 90% of my time in game, and so long as they don't nerf my small lasers into oblivion (#StopTheGhostDamage) I will happily continue to do so until either this game or I dies.

I guess you haven't had the same experience Khobai, but in my experience as soon as you've got your roll reflexes tuned up, enemy laser vomit becomes a joke. I never stand around in the open without my team, so when I see those timber wolves start to hurl, I show em my right side and back up behind cover or my team-mates. Unless I make a piloting error, like JernauM said, like say if I walk into a firing line alone, rolling keeps me alive for a good long time.

Also if anybody is going to call me out on piloting a low aggro mech and is going to say that that's a why I live longer, my Nova is painted gold, so it's most assuredly Pug-bait

Livewyr, on 21 October 2015 - 07:05 AM, said:

So, say a Shadowcat ends up within 300 meters of a 10 laser SCR. (City map)

He's dead, naturally. (Cannot outrun, not much armor, little firepower) What mistake did he make?

A. He got too close to the enemy line by himself, It's next to impossible to brawl in a Shadowcat, why is he up there alone?
B. He should have used those sexy JJs to start hopping over buildings, leaving the SCR behind. 10 Laser SCR has to be packing smalls, and small have limited range; also you can outrun an SCR with MASC and the JJs will make it even easier in a City Map.

[Livewyr]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 21 October 2015 - 07:59 AM, said:

A. He got too close to the enemy line by himself, It's next to impossible to brawl in a Shadowcat, why is he up there alone?
B. He should have used those sexy JJs to start hopping over buildings, leaving the SCR behind. 10 Laser SCR has to be packing smalls, and small have limited range; also you can outrun an SCR with MASC and the JJs will make it even easier in a City Map.

In this case, it was flanking (behind enemy lines) and ran into a single solitary SCR. Like I said, he happened upon the SCR (who was also alone) in buildings.

As for escape, JJs are nice if elevating to another level, but buildings hardly help.. you can stand on top of the building and (maybe) and be a target for everything with LoS (which is alot when you are on top of a buiding) and when you hop off, he can be waiting for you.
You can MASC, but you will only outpace him (and only slightly) if you run in a straight line.
The, SCR being all-powerful by comparison, does not need to dodge you, he can chase you in a straight line.

Those scalpel smalls and meds (having perfect convergence and decent range) just rip you apart. Game over.


There needs to be more to combat than just "point and click with a bunch of weapons."

[Khobai]

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. I pilot a Nova 90% of my time in game

A nova doesnt really represent your "typical" IS medium though. Even though its not as good as the stormcrow its still much better than the majority of other mediums. Clan tech negates a lot of the disadvantages that mediums typically have because of CXL engines.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 21 October 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

In this case, it was flanking (behind enemy lines) and ran into a single solitary SCR. Like I said, he happened upon the SCR (who was also alone) in buildings.

As for escape, JJs are nice if elevating to another level, but buildings hardly help.. you can stand on top of the building and (maybe) and be a target for everything with LoS (which is alot when you are on top of a buiding) and when you hop off, he can be waiting for you.
You can MASC, but you will only outpace him (and only slightly) if you run in a straight line.
The, SCR being all-powerful by comparison, does not need to dodge you, he can chase you in a straight line.

Those scalpel smalls and meds (having perfect convergence and decent range) just rip you apart. Game over.

I think you vastly under-estimate the Shadow Cat's ability to out-maneuver a Stormcrow. Despite the fact that the Shadow Cat is hard-point starving (needs fictional omnipods to fix that), I still love the chassis, and I know for a fact that I could easily give an SCR the slip in an urban environment. You don't climb ontop of the builds to escape, you run towards them, jump over the buildings and keep going. That will force him to go around the buildings while you can just go up an over.

Now believe me, I'm not arguing that the "Skill-Crow" isn't OP, it totally is; but it's the chassis, not only the weapons on the chassis that are the problem. You shouldn't nerf a weapon (small lasers) because a broken mech can boat them efficiently. If the weapon is overpowered on it's own (ERMedium) then it's a different story.

Livewyr, on 21 October 2015 - 09:12 AM, said:

There needs to be more to combat than just "point and click with a bunch of weapons."

*scratches head* isn't that how guns in video games work? you have to point, to aim, and then click, to fire... What are you going to tell me? you have to lead your targets with front-loaded weapons? it's the same thing as keeping your lasers on target as enemies move. Lasers aren't the no-skill weapons you make them out to be; I'm sorry they frustrate you.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Khobai, on 21 October 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

A nova doesnt really represent your "typical" IS medium though. Even though its not as good as the stormcrow its still much better than the majority of other mediums. Clan tech negates a lot of the disadvantages that mediums typically have because of CXL engines.

Oh, sorry, didn't know you were talking about IS Mediums Specifically ^-^; But I do think that is more of a Clan IS balance thing, than a laser vomit issue.

But I do agree that clan mediums and large pulses are a bit over the top, I just think people tend to dramatize how bad TTK is in this game sometimes, and like to call it out. Honestly, the thing that I think kills the IS is the weight of their equipment; if equipment weight was equal between clans and IS, I think IS mediums would be doing a lot better.

[Domoneky]

[AdamBaines]

Khobai, on 13 October 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

Am I missing something? It seems like two of the game biggest balance problems: convergence and TTK have been completely ignored.

Many people don't think convergence is an issue unfortunately, but a skill mechanic. Id say from my experience its split about 50/50 for those who participate in the forums. So PGI wont change it until it is a heavy majority that wants it removed.

[Livewyr]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 21 October 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

I think you vastly under-estimate the Shadow Cat's ability to out-maneuver a Stormcrow. Despite the fact that the Shadow Cat is hard-point starving (needs fictional omnipods to fix that), I still love the chassis, and I know for a fact that I could easily give an SCR the slip in an urban environment. You don't climb ontop of the builds to escape, you run towards them, jump over the buildings and keep going. That will force him to go around the buildings while you can just go up an over.

Now believe me, I'm not arguing that the "Skill-Crow" isn't OP, it totally is; but it's the chassis, not only the weapons on the chassis that are the problem. You shouldn't nerf a weapon (small lasers) because a broken mech can boat them efficiently. If the weapon is overpowered on it's own (ERMedium) then it's a different story.



*scratches head* isn't that how guns in video games work? you have to point, to aim, and then click, to fire... What are you going to tell me? you have to lead your targets with front-loaded weapons? it's the same thing as keeping your lasers on target as enemies move. Lasers aren't the no-skill weapons you make them out to be; I'm sorry they frustrate you.

1a: I think you overestimate the SHC's ability to out maneuver a SCR- they both have the same top speed.. (MASC is 7 seconds of 11kph faster...)
1b: Jumping over a building slows you down. Unless it's the citadel, or one of the mesas in the bog, they will just go around and catch up with you.

2: Yes, that is how guns work, but combat doesn't need to be that simple. WoT is a good example... two tanks squaring off will do bad things to each other. If one tank, however, turns an angle to the other tank, that tank has an advantage. And there you have it, something very simple making combat more than just pointing and shooting.

MWO has nothing like that. MWO has "point and click, and then turn which part of your mech you want to take damage towards the enemy" there is no thought in it. Even ECM and it's counters were just binary on/off switches for a weapon system. No thought or skill involved.

(Unless they make information warfare related to combat...it will just be an interactive Candy Crush game.)

[Kjudoon]

Khobai, on 13 October 2015 - 11:38 PM, said:

What good does lowering laser range do if gauss/laser vomit alphastrikes still do 50-70 damage?

Instead of dying at long-range now you just die at medium-range. And likely the damage will be even greater and TTK even lower because we'll be inside the optimum ranges of those weapons.

Am I missing something? It seems like two of the game biggest balance problems: convergence and TTK have been completely ignored.

Until such time as all grouped or simultaneously fired weapons spread like LRMs or LBx weapons this will continue to be a problem. The problem is stacking damage on one component. Everyone rightly fears 50-80 points of damage from energy and autocannons because it is all but guaranteed to hit the same location. Nobody fears an LRM broadside of same damage value because much of the damage will not only miss, but be spread over the entire body. This is mostly true of LBx weapons as well.

This is the only way left to equalize this issue is to break group weapons hit locations... aka convergence and install cone of fire or apply randomized streak spread or some other method of separation to every group/simultaneous/alpha strike. There is no other solution left. Everything else just puts a band-aid on a gangreneous broken leg.

Edited by Kjudoon, 21 October 2015 - 02:27 PM.

[White Bear 84]

And we go full circle once again.. ..convergence.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 21 October 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

2: Yes, that is how guns work, but combat doesn't need to be that simple. WoT is a good example... two tanks squaring off will do bad things to each other. If one tank, however, turns an angle to the other tank, that tank has an advantage. And there you have it, something very simple making combat more than just pointing and shooting.

MWO will never implement that kind of mechanic because armor in Battle-tech, fundamentally doesn't work that way. To quote Sarna " In the BattleTech universe, armor is ablative in nature. This means that it is generally destroyed or blown off when hit, but in the process of doing so, it absorbs enormous energies, protecting the unit it is mounted on." In short it behaves like IRL explosive reactive armor, on which angle has little impact on the damage. PGI is not going to rewrite the whole formula when no battletech product ever, has.

It's all well and good to want the game to be a little more complex, but a broken mechanic like ghost damage isn't the way to go.

Livewyr, on 21 October 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

MWO has nothing like that. MWO has "point and click, and then turn which part of your mech you want to take damage towards the enemy" there is no thought in it. Even ECM and it's counters were just binary on/off switches for a weapon system. No thought or skill involved.

(Unless they make information warfare related to combat...it will just be an interactive Candy Crush game.)

You are exaggerating so much that it hurts. Yes there is thought in it. There is magnitudes more thought in MWO's combat than there is in your typical first person shooter. Torso twisting, shielding, and rolling damage DOES require thought and skill, I don't know what else to say besides that your accusation is flat out WRONG. I am playing this game right now because I'm tired of getting destroyed in twitch shooters; I don't have the golden reflexes to win at that mindless stuff.

This game is leaps and bounds more complex and thoughtful than Candy Crush, how the heck can you even compare the two with a straight face? I can't even read the statement with a straight face. Have you ever gotten onto VOIP and taken lead of a group of 12 PUGs? That is mentally taxing stuff keeping people together and forming a sound strategy to outwit your opponents. Your hyperbole has gone into the realm of absurdity unless you are just flat out trolling.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 21 October 2015 - 03:57 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Livewyr, on 21 October 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

1a: I think you overestimate the SHC's ability to out maneuver a SCR- they both have the same top speed.. (MASC is 7 seconds of 11kph faster...)
1b: Jumping over a building slows you down. Unless it's the citadel, or one of the mesas in the bog, they will just go around and catch up with you.

Add me if you've got premium time and a small laser crow, I'd like to see you catch me on river city; a well executed jump will increase the distance between us, not decrease it.; especially if I jump and move in a direction you aren't expecting.

[Thorqemada]

Yep - i got my whole ST on my fresh Thunderbolt with >80HP blown away in one single Alpha by a KC ~300m away...did not see Lasers or PPC - only heard the Ballistic Impact Sound and then the ST was clean gone...

Edited by Thorqemada, 21 October 2015 - 04:32 PM.