19 replies to this topic

[Shifty McSwift]

Anyone else feel that the ER distinction on lasers should be more focused on the idea of being ER?

For ER large lasers it doesn't seem to be an issue, the range is massive in general, but when it comes to ER mediums and ER smalls (when IS get them, but for now specific to clans), particularly when you compare them to the ranges of pulse lasers for clan.

On top of this it leaves the questionable position of heavy laser ranges, which would need to be substantially different from ER and possibly pulse too.

I really feel like the ER part of small and medium lasers isn't really part of their attraction at all, when we get heavy lasers that will be more measurable, but currently clan ER lasers are just clan normal lasers really, there is no non ER alternative, and the extra range they provide is quite mediocre.

I am sure there are various "solutions" to this, like adding normal clan lasers, or boosting the ER distinctions (penalties and range bonus), or adding something like long range lasers on top of ER lasers, but I wanted to se how many others feel similarly about the ER distinction and its seeming lack of relative range distinction.

[Vxheous]

We might see PGI revert the ER max ranges back to 2x at some point post new tech...just a guess.

[Shifty McSwift]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 25 June 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

We might see PGI revert the ER max ranges back to 2x at some point post new tech...just a guess.

That would work as a great distinguishing factor for sure, particularly if heavy and pulse lasers have a very small max range/damage fall off range.

That could be an interesting ideal too, if small laser as the baseline, SPL had slightly higher range, but very low max range, where ER had higher still base range, but much larger max/damage falloff range, then heavy could be slotted to have less than normal laser range, giving more distinguishing points to the classes.

[El Bandito]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 25 June 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

We might see PGI revert the ER max ranges back to 2x at some point post new tech...just a guess.

[Ced Riggs]

Well, ER is "extended range", and they do have more range than their counterparts, so, mhmm.

[Shifty McSwift]

Ced Riggs, on 25 June 2017 - 02:54 AM, said:

Well, ER is "extended range", and they do have more range than their counterparts, so, mhmm.

It's a bit weird though, clan have no real base comparison there, to compare to IS lasers isn't perfect as clans apparently get free range bonuses too, comparing them to clan pulse lasers is probably closer, and again, the range distinction between ersl/erml and cspl/cmpl for me are barely compensating for their downsides, of course there is the weight and burn times to consider, it just really feels like the ER part of the laser falls off at lower levels than large.

[El Bandito]

I wonder how PGI would have done the CERPulses? The weapon never went into production, probably for the best.

http://www.sarna.net...rge_Pulse_Laser

Edited by El Bandito, 25 June 2017 - 03:21 AM.

[Ced Riggs]

Shifty McSwift, on 25 June 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

It's a bit weird though, clan have no real base comparison there.

They used to have regular lasers, but abandoned them in their exodus time.

El Bandito, on 25 June 2017 - 03:19 AM, said:

I wonder how PGI would have done the CERPulses? The weapon never went into production, probably for the best.

http://www.sarna.net...rge_Pulse_Laser

Maybe we'll find out once IS gets X Pulses. :^)

[Fiona Marshe Pureborn]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 25 June 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

We might see PGI revert the ER max ranges back to 2x at some point post new tech...just a guess.

Except the Clan ER Lg Laser is still 2x max range already. They never reduced it like all the other ER lasers.
Fixing that discrepancy should also alleviate some of the 'tech type' issues about long range sniping.

[Wildstreak]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 25 June 2017 - 01:51 AM, said:

We might see PGI revert the ER max ranges back to 2x at some point post new tech...just a guess.

Or you may see IS ER lasers get their max range cut back to less than 2x.
#MessedupWeaponsOnline

[Vxheous]

Fiona Marshe Pureborn, on 25 June 2017 - 04:00 AM, said:

Except the Clan ER Lg Laser is still 2x max range already. They never reduced it like all the other ER lasers.
Fixing that discrepancy should also alleviate some of the 'tech type' issues about long range sniping.

Yeah, I'm well aware that Clan ER large kept the 2x range, it's really the others I'm talking about. There's really no discrepancy at the IS ERLL vs Clan ERLL since the optimum ranges are ~30m difference, with a .25s burn duration difference. IS also tends to field 5 ERLL (45 damage) vs clans 4 CERLL (44 damage) in optimum builds.

[Y E O N N E]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 25 June 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm well aware that Clan ER large kept the 2x range, it's really the others I'm talking about. There's really no discrepancy at the IS ERLL vs Clan ERLL since the optimum ranges are ~30m difference, with a .25s burn duration difference. IS also tends to field 5 ERLL (45 damage) vs clans 4 CERLL (44 damage) in optimum builds.

There is a 65 m difference in optimum range between Clan and IS ER Large.

IMHO, giving the Clans back the 2x is too much. Giving them all 1.75x, on the other hand, actually balances things out nicely. IS would end up with a tiny max range advantage, but they would deal less damage overall and the Clans would ramp up faster. It would be a slight nerf to the current cERLL range, but a buff to every other current Clan laser.

[El Bandito]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 25 June 2017 - 06:09 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm well aware that Clan ER large kept the 2x range, it's really the others I'm talking about. There's really no discrepancy at the IS ERLL vs Clan ERLL since the optimum ranges are ~30m difference, with a .25s burn duration difference. IS also tends to field 5 ERLL (45 damage) vs clans 4 CERLL (44 damage) in optimum builds.

IS ERLL has 675 meter optimum range, while CERLL has 740 meter optimum range. That's 65 meters of difference. Double that for 130 meters of maximum range of difference. Now add 15% range skill and that's 149.5 meters of range difference. Add TC MK1 for both sides (cause why wouldn't you run one in a sniper build, especially once IS TC comes out), and that extends to 155.5 meters.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 June 2017 - 06:28 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 June 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

There is a 65 m difference in optimum range between Clan and IS ER Large.

IMHO, giving the Clans back the 2x is too much. Giving them all 1.75x, on the other hand, actually balances things out nicely. IS would end up with a tiny max range advantage, but they would deal less damage overall and the Clans would ramp up faster. It would be a slight nerf to the current cERLL range, but a buff to every other current Clan laser.

its not a buff


Bringing the bar down on the top performer isnt a buff to anything, its just a nerf to the top performer.

Not saying it isnt neccesary or isnt needed but lets not sugar coat it or play semantics, Its not a buff.

Edited by Revis Volek, 25 June 2017 - 07:14 AM.

[Vxheous]

El Bandito, on 25 June 2017 - 06:24 AM, said:

IS ERLL has 675 meter optimum range, while CERLL has 740 meter optimum range. That's 65 meters of difference. Double that for 130 meters of maximum range of difference. Now add 15% range skill and that's 149.5 meters of range difference. Add TC MK1 for both sides (cause why wouldn't you run one in a sniper build, especially once IS TC comes out), and that extends to 155.5 meters.

I got the numbers wrong as I only use ERLL on IS mechs that already have a range quirk on them to start, which really closes the gap of the optimal ranges. IS ERLL tend to get boated on grasshopper 5P (5% range quirk) and battlemaster 1G (10% range quirk) anyways for the high mounts

[Y E O N N E]

Revis Volek, on 25 June 2017 - 07:14 AM, said:

its not a buff


Bringing the bar down on the top performer isnt a buff to anything, its just a nerf to the top performer.

Not saying it isnt neccesary or isnt needed but lets not sugar coat it or play semantics, Its not a buff.

It is a buff because Clan lasers are currently at 1.7x save the ER Large.

[El Bandito]

Vxheous Kerensky, on 25 June 2017 - 07:19 AM, said:

I got the numbers wrong as I only use ERLL on IS mechs that already have a range quirk on them to start, which really closes the gap of the optimal ranges. IS ERLL tend to get boated on grasshopper 5P (5% range quirk) and battlemaster 1G (10% range quirk) anyways for the high mounts

And I am gonna say the umpteenth time. Do not bring quirks into it, cause not every IS mech has range quirks. That's not how you balance weapons between factions. First balance the weapons, and then you give quirks to under performers.

Safe bet BLR-1G is on PGI's nerf list due to its popularity. GHR-5P already got the heavy nerfbat.

Edited by El Bandito, 25 June 2017 - 08:13 AM.

[Shifty McSwift]

El Bandito, on 25 June 2017 - 08:10 AM, said:

And I am gonna say the umpteenth time. Do not bring quirks into it, cause not every IS mech has range quirks. That's not how you balance weapons between factions. First balance the weapons, and then you give quirks to under performers.

Safe bet BLR-1G is on PGI's nerf list due to its popularity. GHR-5P already got the heavy nerfbat.

Yeah, it really just depends what they want to use quirks for.

The idea they can be used as temporary bandaid advantages to under performing mechs is pretty good, the idea being that those quirks if they work to help it gain use-ability become ingrained into its stats or in the case of weapon quirks, permanent quirks of the chassis/variant.

At the same time as this, they can be used to help distinguish between chassis variants further, beyond hardpoint distinctions, for giving chassis' specific points at which they excel. That is where I want them to be used in the main.

I don't mind at all them being used as bandaids for underperformers, so long as they either get taken off and replaced with a new one if that is ineffective, or added to their base stats if they are effective.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Shifty McSwift, on 25 June 2017 - 03:00 AM, said:

It's a bit weird though, clan have no real base comparison there, to compare to IS lasers isn't perfect as clans apparently get free range bonuses too, comparing them to clan pulse lasers is probably closer, and again, the range distinction between ersl/erml and cspl/cmpl for me are barely compensating for their downsides, of course there is the weight and burn times to consider, it just really feels like the ER part of the laser falls off at lower levels than large.

Your forgetting the the Clans are using advanced tech so they have moved past standard lasers which is why they only have ER Lasers. IS is playing catch up which is why at the start of the Clan invasion, they only had ER LLs. Also you need to consider that the Clan ER ML has near the same range as a IS LL so I think that along allows them to be classified as Extend Range.

[Khobai]

Quote

Also you need to consider that the Clan ER ML has near the same range as a IS LL

No it really doesnt.

Large Laser = 900m max range with 10% range quirks being fairly common so lets say 990m

ERML = 688 max range