15 replies to this topic

[Nesutizale]

Reading through the forum and taking out my old rulebooks and putting the number from TT, Solaris and MWO beside each other and calculating DPS and HPS (heat per second) and thinking about how I would approach the balanceing I came across a thought that I wanted to ask here.

What is balanceing? At what point do we concider the game to be balanced? What do we compare to each other? DPS to heat? Tonnage to Damage? All values of a weapon?

I mean the perfect balance is archived if everything is the same. All damage, all heat, all mechs, everything but that is the contrary of what we have and most of us want. Diversity.

So from looking at the numbers of the weapons I think PGIs goal with the weapons is to maintain as many original values as possible.

So the question to me is...should that be the goal in balanceing MWO? Beeing as close to the TT/Solaris rules as possible?
MWO has a quite different dynamik to it then a TT game. Espacialy targeting is quite less based on luck then actuall skill of a person.

So I ask again...what do you people concider a good balance? What do you want to archive with it?
What values should be taken into consideration since there are quite a few numbers to crunch.
Heat, damage, cooldown, slots, tonnage, range, lockon mechanic/time....

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Most of us want battlevalue but that is obviously too much to ask for.

[Nyuuu]

Optimal balance would be achieved once every single mech variant in the game is viable to take out in a tier 1 tryhard match without giving your team a disadvantage. They do not need to be similar for that, just have their own niche where they can excel.

The best way to achieve that, you might not want to hear it looking at your post, is to leave table top as far behind as possible.
Finally start touching values like weapon weight (the AC2 really needs it) and we can get quite a few more levers to attain a better and more varied game state.

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Nyuuu, on 16 October 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

Finally start touching values like weapon weight (the AC2 really needs it)

weight is actually okay (in my opinion) it's the heat combined with the rof which kills it.
AC2 1 heat
AC5 1 heat

[Mcgral18]

When long range weapons can take out mechs from long range, IF they hit effectively, but are at a disadvantage when missing or when things get close due to DPS.

When Short range weapons overpower long and short range weapons at short range, being the best weapons in their niche, due to the downsides involved at being defenceless past 300M.


Presently, Lasers win in every category; PPCs being too slow to be used at range (and having the same recycle as short range weapons), SRMs being weaksauce at short range.


The cSmall laser family are among the only good short range weapons in the game, yet the cLPL wins at long range, mid range and short range, having the second best Dam/tick in the game, and decent Heat/dam.



When factions are closer in balance.

How about not making the Gauss rifle the best Crit weapon in the game?

PGI has failed to balance things for years on end. MG nerfs of all things, and the Flamer being worthless for 3 years.
The recent PTSs have been the only recent significant changes; some changes good, some which I think completely miss the mark.

[Nyuuu]

LOADED, on 16 October 2015 - 02:23 PM, said:

weight is actually okay (in my opinion) it's the heat combined with the rof which kills it.
AC2 1 heat
AC5 1 heat

That would make it easier to boat the weapon but still not help the ballistic lights in any way.
The main problem for mechs like the spider 5k or the Panther 10P is that theres just no ballistic weapon between the 0,5t machine gun and the 6t AC2.
Reduce the weight to 4t and keep, or if needed, even increase the heat.

Some currently miserable chassis might not climb up to the meta but at least become kinda playable without the change hurting any other part of the game. Whats the problem if stock load outs are suddenly undertonned as PGI claims as problem....

[FupDup]

To sum it up, I'd say that it is a ratio of risk vs. reward, of opportunity costs vs. benefits received.

E.g. when something has higher risk than reward, it's underpowered. When something has higher reward than risk, it's overpowered.

Edited by FupDup, 16 October 2015 - 02:32 PM.

[Nesutizale]

Nyuuu, on 16 October 2015 - 02:21 PM, said:

The best way to achieve that, you might not want to hear it looking at your post, is to leave table top as far behind as possible.

As much as I like the TT, I also had the thought of "restarting" the balance from a clean slate. I just looked for the TT/Solaris values to get an idea of what made the TT so balanced (in my fussy old memories ^_° )
I can live with a new balance and I agree with the general thought of high risk, high reward from FupDup.

I will wait for some more input. Maybe someone has a brilliant idea.

[Nesutizale]

Just thinking again about weapon characteristics and going a bit away from the original to give each weapongroup a more specific role. Just IS Standart weapons, no LBX, Ultra, ER or Pulse. They would have their own characteristics but I haven't gone into details here so they might follow as soon as I figured out the normal weapons.


Laser
Hard hitting weapons but with a liniar falloff from the start they would be more like brawler weapons. Makeing nice holes at close range while still capable to do at least some damage at range.
The would have the advantage of lower weight but a slow refire rate.

PPC
Basicly same as the laser but with the extra of causing problems to ECM and other electronic systems. Minimum range would be dropped but you would also suffer from the feedback if your target is to close.

Autocannons
They would come in two flavors.
AC2/AC5 These will become the sniper weapons. Low damage, low heat, high range and medium refire rate.
AC10/AC20. The are the DPS weapons of choice. They would pump out a steady stream of projektiles to hurt you.
All versions have a balistic behavior over range and would have a more abrupt falloff.

LRM
These are your support weapons. Haveing a high minimal range they are to be used to support other units, espacialy scouts. So what a scout lacks in firepower should come from the LRMs of other units.
As for the ECM problem, yah I know that would have to be adressed when you fix LRMs to indirect fire weapons but I will think about that later in changeing ECM behavior. Most likely turn it into a stealth just for the equiped mech or mechs that stand only 7,5m close to it but this is less about balance but character. Will get to balance as soon as I have figured out a character for each type of weapon.

SRM
Not sure as to what role I would give the SRM. Most likely give them some kind of armor pierceing ability, if possible.
Else I would see them as the second brawler weapon with a good damage output but spreading it more. Giveing it a chance to find holes in enemy armor. Also they would be pretty light and small but short ranged.


How would you feel about this characteristics? How would you discribe the current weapons charistics compared to these?

[Triordinant]

Nesutizale, on 16 October 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

So I ask again...what do you people concider a good balance?

Good (not the Best) balance is a team with one each of the top 12 Clan 'mechs consistently having a 50% win rate vs. a team with one each of the top 12 IS 'mechs.

[Aiden Skye]

Don't know what "balanceing" is. I do know what balancing is though.

[Homeskilit]

Balance is never fully achieved, you can get closer and closer but the meta will always shift in unexpected ways.

*edit
This does not mean you do not attempt to balance though, quite the opposite in fact, as the game will get better the closer it comes to being balanced.

Edited by Homeskilit, 17 October 2015 - 04:32 PM.

[Lightfoot]

For MechWarrior Online it seems to be that Lights can have a chance to take out an Assault. That's ok, but MWO has gone beyond that and has over-nerfed long range weapons to remove them also, giving us laser-vomit brawl. The unlocked target laser nerf will fail because it only looks at lasers as the laser-vomit problem when what drives laser-vomit is that all the long range weapons suck. So there is PGI loving laser-brawl, but unable to control it, moving farther and farther away from Battle Tech 'Mech Combat Simulation, which was the game we were told we were funding.

MWO needs to have more tactical Battlemech gameplay ability and less Quake/COD shooter. If you want those shooter games there are thousands to chose from, but only MechWarrior can be a Battlemech Sim. That is how MWO should be balanced.

I think PGI is also lost in trying to make everything balanced at any range, but range differentiated weapons are required for a 'Mech Sim. I would keep realism as the priority and not worry so much about weapon balance or player complaints about meta this or that. There will always be a meta running, what you want from balance is a Battle Tech based 'Mech Simulation.

[SaltBeef]

The game is not fully Balanced until the IS can steam roll every Clan mech with vindicators loaded with a single LRM 5. Basically seems like the are switching places and making the Clans the IS and the IS the clans. If That is this balance I say Fork Balance.

[Nesutizale]

The more I try to find a good balance myself the more respect PGI gets from me for what they have done so far.
I have tried different approaches over the last few days and came up with nothing thats realy usefull.

Logic is the biggest problem for me so far. TT weapons seam to follow their own logic in some cases.
For example the SRM. While we double the number of missiles fired, the heat dosn't double as well.
The AC2 and AC5 don't fit at all heatwise, both doing 1 heat?!

Lasers at least follow a curve that, the more powerfull they become, the less heat efficient they are.
Also LRMs weight is strange, We double the size but the weight dosn't follow that logic.

So there are a lot of logic holes but this isn't logictech isn't it

[Choppah]

To me, good balance means every weapon, equipment, and mech is equally viable. A balanced game is also beneficial for PGI because they spent time and money making lots of mechs, but only a few are actually used. PGI needs a return on investment for this content, instead they decided to buff preorder mechs and nerf them when out for cbills. Until they change their mind, get used to useless flamers, OP ECM, and a select few godtier mechs.